hi and salaam to everyone

not really sure which forum to post this in, but this one seems as close as any.

Ok, i am writing today, as a muslim, who is fed up with muslims.
Yeah, i know, that sounds pretty strange. Thing is, i have been wanting to write something like this for a long time, and last night, i was watching Morgan Spurlocks series "30 Days", where someone basically takes the role of someone else, for a month, to see what its like.
And this was really the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak.
I am watching this, with my kids, and this particular episode was concerning Islam. They had someone (a christian) who would live as a muslim for 30 days.

Bear with me :-)

The first thing out of many, that got my back up, was when Morgan (who i admire) was giving the rules, and one of which was.....to be a muslim, you have to grow a beard.

And that was it, really. Because AS a muslim, i am SO fed up with hearing things about Islam, that are SO not true.

I am not blaming Mr Spurlock here...no, i am blaming muslims....the majority of anyway, for given this warped and untrue version of Islam, which is NOT based on the Quran......its not, and i know you hear this so many times....that Islam is really peaceful, blah blah blah......but i am here to tell you that Islam WAS hijacked.....i dont know when, but it was.

What you see as Islam today, and indeed, what maybe a billion muslims perceive as Islam today, is NOT islam.
If you ask a practising muslim (that is, one who prays 5 times a day, who gives 2.5% of his savings to charity etc etc), and ask him/her....how many of their rituals and ideals, actually come from the Quran.....and if they are honest, they will have to say.....none.

Everything, and i mean, everything, that muslims do.....has NOTHING to do with the Quran.
I will give a few examples.
5 times a day prayers.......i dont know where this comes from.....in the Quran, it only mentions 3 prayers by name, and it gives no set ritual on how to perform them....rather, it gives encouragement to talk to God, to praise Him and to ask of HIm what you want......NOT, as many muslims do....pray in a set way, in a language that they dont understand, verses that are found no-where in the Quran.

Charity....or Zakat. In the Quran, it says....and they ask, how much money to give to charity, and the reply is, that which is superfluous.
Yet any muslim will tell you, its 2.5% of any savings you have.

Stoning to death.....mentioned NO-WHERE in the Quran. In the case of apostasy, it says:
(paraphrasing here)....for those who believe, and then disbelieve, and then believe and then disbelieve and then believe...etc
Please tell me, sunni muslims, how can you believe, disbelieve and then believe again, if you have already been stoned to death???

Do you not also ever wonder about the verse which tells us that there is NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION???

Adulterers.....in the Quran, it mentiones 100 lashes.
You say....no, we stone them to death.
Yet elsewhere in the Quran, it says for unmarried women, the punishment is half.....so please, enlighten me as to how you stone someone half to death?

My point here, is that, conspiracy or not.....the Quran tells us that the Arabs are the staunchest in their hypocrisy and disbelief.

And 1.5 billion muslims, say their prayers in arabic, even though they dont know what they're saying.....they greet each other in arabic.....they make comments in arabic (Al Hamdu Lillah......Insha Allah etc)......why?

Do we think that God cannot understand any other language?

The truth is, that Islam was hijacked, pretty much the same way Christianity was hijacked.

Imams such as Bukhari, Tirmidhi etc, wrote down what they thought were sayings of Muhammad.

The result of which, is that most muslims these days, take these "sayings" as gospel.
They follow them more than the Quran. They quote them more than the Quran.

And its sad.

As a muslim who has seen the light, i urge all you muslims out there....to remember what God says

"God does not change the condition of a people, until they change it themselves"

And stop blaming everyone else for our problems.
If people have bad perceptions of Islam, its only because of us.
I read something the other day, on BBC news, that a guy was helping with the earthquake victims by setting up a kitchen. He was feeding 1200 people a day. And yet in that report was a quote from a "mullah" which said:

"in Islam, cooking is forbidden during Ramadan....if you dont stop, we will burn down the kitchen"

lol....do you have ANY idea how that sounds to a non-muslim??

I mean, its not even true....but the fact that he said it was against islam...non-muslims would read that and think.....wow....thats harsh.

And quite rightly.

I dont think its any coincidence, that whenever God forbids something in the Quran (which is not that often you know), He mostly always follows it with a warning to NOT forbid things which HE didnt forbid.

Anyway, thats my rant over with.
You might ask why this should be considered a conspiracy. Well, personally, i think that when something is taken over and given new meanings, it SHOULD be considered a conspiracy

aisha

I'll allow this as a conspiracy as one could say that the religion is being intentionally warped for evil and maniacle purposes, and I think maybe that is your direction.

My response is this - don't feel like the lone stranger in regard to your belief being warped and twisted! Seems that is man's way.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I'll allow this as a conspiracy as one could say that the religion is being intentionally warped for evil and maniacle purposes, and I think maybe that is your direction.

thank you......i really wasnt sure where to post this, but to me, it DOES seem like a conspiracy. I have come to the conclusion, that for all the "there is no hierarchy in islam" nonsense.......there IS....and there shouldnt be.
The thing that most muslims seem to forget, is that although Muhammad was an Arab,.....it was the Arabs who were the most hostile to him. I mean, they abused him, they put sanctions upon him and other muslims, they even managed to drive him out of his place of birth. And that people today accept Arabia as.....i dont know....the most holy place ever....boggles the mind.
I dont quite know how or why, but the Arabs, to me at least, seem simultaenously the most religious, (the shariah) the most hypocritical (the royals are well known to own race horses and to come over to london and hire prostitutes) and the most likely to benefit from muslim finance (the annual pilgrimage)
There has to be something there.

Originally posted by Thomas CrowneMy response is this - don't feel like the lone stranger in regard to your belief being warped and twisted! Seems that is man's way.

I agree :-)....it IS mans way. And i dont think usually, that would bother me. But with 4 children, and an ex-sunni muslim husband......it started to bother me a great deal. The way i was bringing my children up conflicted totally with what he was teaching them. And i think (and i told him) that if a muslim is simply going by what they have been taught by their parents.....and NOT what is in the Quran....basically, if they dont have the time or urge to find out what is true themselves, then quite frankly, they have no right to teach others about Islam.
Otherwise, all they teach is the same old recycled stuff.

aisha

As a Christian, I would really prefer you to accept Christ, but in regard to your difficulty with your own religion being trashed and perverted (Oh, how I can relate), all I can say is to hold tight to how it should be, show your children the difference between the right and wrong way (so that they will not be suckered by the perversions) and enlighten others along the way, as you can.


The faith and spirituality forum over at BTS is an excellent medium for doing just that, and I certainly hope you take advantage of it. Education is the best way to deny ignorance a foot hold!

In advance, let me thank you for the effort, time and patience that teaching others will require. Especially since the other side will be waiting to cross swords at every turn.

My best advice to anyone that is confused by religion is too read the Bible, Quran, Torah for themselves. I am a Christian and we have the same problem with certain sects misinterpeting what the Bible actually says. If I went to church and only listened to what is being taught or preached and never checked for myself then my head would also be full of half truths and outright lies. Some people like to bend or stretch what is actually written to
justify thier personal wishes. Just as Islam is being distorted by radicals, Christianity is being distorted as well. It really becomes a problem when you have poor, trusting, uneducated people being mislead by Scumbags
taken advantage and teaching thier own version of the truth. This is not a problem tied to Islam only, it is rampant right her in the USA. Knowledge is a powerful weapon, the lack of knowledge is likewise a terrible disability.

I would say that much of what is un-kuranic is taken from the Hadiths no? THe commentaries that go alongside the Quran. Much like how judaism has the Torah, which is the holy text from god himself, and the Talmud, which are commentaries and discussions by religious scholars.

Interestingly, Christianity does nad doesn't have anything like this. There is no official Christian Commentaries that accompany the holy books. But there are writtings of church fathers that are taken with great weight, and even today there are the writtings of people like Robertson, etc, that are non-biblical but are taken as scripture.


Although, in a sense, the gospels would be correlates of the hadiths and talmud, if there was a book penned by jesus himself.



I have to say that I am impressed that geek101 has said this. It shows what I suspect is something akin to the majority viewpoint of muslims, if not all, then certainly ones living in western countries. These thoughts seem to jive with the muslims living in western countries that I know more so that the dictates that come out of the more radical elements of the middle east.


And yet, all those people who constantly complain about muslims never 'condemming and rejecting extremism' will probably just ignore this sort of thing.

It's not about what religion your part of, religion is just a label like everything else as I mention in several threads. The true nature of religion, or how I view religion is all about how you apply the teaching of the religion into your daily life as a mean to improve yourself as a person in a morally, psychologically, and spiritually. Different regions has different religions as a mean to compensate for their culture. I'm sure if our religion is wrong whether its Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or Buddhism, we would still go to heaven or ascend or even get reincarnated as I'm sure the God or some Higher Being would understand our situation.

I think people have a misunderstanding of all religion, and lack knowledge about others people's religion and perhaps their own too. It's exactly what Yorga said, people misinterpret stories or took it too literally will create conflict. What makes it even worse is these days some people use religion as an excuse as a mean to feed their sinful intentions. People such as terrorists or that Guy from the 700 club. They manipulate the religion, and I swear I hope people would just realize that.

I bet your wondering who does this guy think he is? Well I'm a Catholic, where I stand as a Catholic I don't know, all I can say is going to Church doesn't making you any better of a Catholic it could just be a habit, and I can't say I've been a devoted catholic, and I hardly know anything about the bible. What I can say is that all of my life, I've seen sorts of things, and been around people with all sort of interesting background, history, and religion. So based upon my experiences, I just develop spirituality and wisdom. I can say I am looking alot more into the teaching of the bible, and hopefully other religions as well because I know all teaching are good by nature and similar. And that my faith is with God. I can only pray or hope that my good natures and deeds shall help me will make up for my lack of devotion, if not, well at least I know it wasn't due to any selfish intenstion. So what are the basic teaching of the Muslim and the Catholic religions (besides the 10 commandments)? I'm curious to learn.

On the other note, I did see the "30 Days" show about the religion, and I thought it was interesting. I'm glad the man, changed his thought about Muslim.


[edit on 11-11-2005 by skyblueff0]

Thomas Crowne wrote

As a Christian, I would really prefer you to accept Christ, but in regard to your difficulty with your own religion being trashed and perverted (Oh, how I can relate), all I can say is to hold tight to how it should be, show your children the difference between the right and wrong way (so that they will not be suckered by the perversions) and enlighten others along the way, as you can

well, i can accept Christ as a prophet of God, if thats any good.
I'm doing my best with my kids.....i am determined that they will not grow up without questioning things, and indeed, even now, they seem to have a pretty good grasp on the differences between religion and tradition/culture.


Yorga wrote

If I went to church and only listened to what is being taught or preached and never checked for myself then my head would also be full of half truths and outright lies.

See, thats the problem....i see myself as fortunate, to be a convert, although i am sure that even had i been born muslim, i STILL would have reached this stage. But the truth is, is that for most muslims, what they learn from their parents is it....doesnt matter if their parents were right. I mean, my ex, who is older than me, has actually reached the age of 40 without ever knowing what he says in his prayers, because he says them in arabic. And this is how things are for alot of muslims.

Knowledge is a powerful weapon, the lack of knowledge is likewise a terrible disability

Agree completely. And when muslims say we are urged to seek knowledge, it is true.....but to claim that we DO that, is rubbish. You cant question. I have had people on islamic forums, call me a kafir (unbeliever) for questioning the hadith collections. Even when you point out a saying that is so obviously wrong.

Nygdan wrote

I would say that much of what is un-kuranic is taken from the Hadiths no? THe commentaries that go alongside the Quran

Thats absolutely correct. The funny thing is, is that the words "hadith" (saying, message) and "sunnah" (way, system) are synonomous with muhammad. But in the Quran, the only time either of these words are used, is when it is referring to the Quran itself, or Gods system, or when it is actually challenging muslims, asking them....what hadith will you believe in after this quran?
I mean, it says that about 3 times....and muslims (majority) do not even know the word hadith is in there, much less that God has asked that question.
The hadith collections of Bukhari and the rest, were all written round about 250 years after muhammads death. Sunnis and Shias alike, will tell you that there is a "science" to how these sayings were collected.
In truth, it was nothing more than chinese whispers on a larger scale.

And the FIRST thing a sunni muslim will say to you, when you suggest not following the hadith, is this:
Then how do we know how to pray?

The second thing will likely be.....we are told to follow muhammads example.

To the first, i would say to any muslims reading this....if God didnt tell us a set way to pray....maybe, just maybe.....thats because there isnt one.
Hmmm?....think about it. Is religion really a set of rituals and stupid rules, or is it something much deeper than that?

To the second, i would reply that to follow muhammads example would be things like, being patient, being considerate, tolerant. NOT imitating his life.

For a muslim to think that God meant for us to imitate the life of a 7th century Arab is ridiculous. And i dont mean to offend any sunnis or shias....but, please, use your logic here.

I have to say that I am impressed that geek101 has said this. It shows what I suspect is something akin to the majority viewpoint of muslims, if not all, then certainly ones living in western countries

Unfortunately, you would be wrong there. I agree that the majority of muslims are not extremists, and do not wish to harm anyone or to have Islamic rule in non-islamic countries....and i would go as far to say that anyone who condones terrorist actions, has no actual right to be affiliated with ANY religion.

However, no matter how liberal a muslim may appear, you would be hard pressed to find ones that think like me. I'm not saying i am unique....lol.....there ARE groups and they do seem to be growing, that believe that we should follow the Quran only. That the hadith present nothing to do with true islam.

But (i hate to keep using my ex as an example....lol...but he's a good one, and we do discuss all this, get on ok, etc).....ok, here's an example....he doesnt pray 5 times a day, he doesnt have a beard, he's not really that strict.....but he will pick on the stupidest things.....like insisting on eating with his right hand....a dislike of saying the word "pig".
You get the picture :-)

Muslims are fond of saying that islam is totally compatible with modernity. And it actually is. But to say that and then to follow the life of someone who lived 1400 years ago....doesnt add up.
And no matter what muslims think, there HAS to be a reason why most people see muslim countries as backward, uncivilized places.
Its NOT all propaganda....stop blaming this on everyone else. When i read on here a while back, that the Isreali army were planning on using bullets dipped in pigs blood to deter palestinians....i didnt know whether to laugh or cry.
To think that people believe this would bother them....lol.....and further, to know that it actually WOULD.....oh God.

I got news for you guys....there are no virgins in heaven waiting for you. God really wont care (i dont think) whether you have facial hair or whether you eat with your left hand, satan doesnt laugh when you yawn and God understands english too.

aisha

[edit on 11-11-2005 by geek101]

skyblueff0 wrote

The true nature of religion, or how I view religion is all about how you apply the teaching of the religion into your daily life as a mean to improve yourself as a person in a morally, psychologically, and spiritually

couldnt agree more. Since i started looking into all this more, i also started looking at the translations of the quran and have realised, to my dismay i add, that translators take huge liberties sometimes, putting in words that arent there in arabic, deliberately changing the word in english, even though the arabic word is exactly the same (example....the word hadith means message, but in 3 verses (at least), Yusuf Ali has translated "alhadeeth" as either message, recital or idle talk.
So i came to the conclusion that you really cant rely on these people, you HAVE to sort it out yourself, and that as long as you are good, have good intentions, i honestly beleive God will be there for you.
It has to be spiritual, not ritualistic. Muslims will tell you, that "salat" means prayer. It actually means much more than that, it means commitments, to God and to your fellow humans.

So what are the basic teaching of the Muslim and the Catholic religions (besides the 10 commandments)? I'm curious to learn

Basic teachings of Islam?....well, to be tolerant (yes really....lol), to not be agressors, to believe in God, the Last Day, to believe in ALL the Prophets and NOT to make distinction between ANY of them (are you reading this....you muslims who ask for blessings for muhammad around 20 times a day in your prayers.....God says dont make any distinctions)...hmm...no alcohol, no pork, adultery is out, as is sex before marriage, to remember God often and to honour your commitments to God and to people. To be humble and righteous and good.

aisha

Hello geek. I'm very interested in this discussion, especially as a muslim who believes that the hadith should not totally be disregarded.

I agree that much of the Hadith has been distorted, and there are a large number of "horror stories" of how people have "extracted" something completely unislamic out of the Hadith.

However, that is why there are various levels of reliability attached to the Hadith (I am sure you know all this, just for the sake of "recap", I'll mention it). A hadith with a smaller chain, or one verified by a larger number of people (who were directly in contact with Muhammad) would be more reliable. The simplest check is to see if it contradicts what is in the Quran in any way. My point is, it's all very well to say that we should be like Muhammad - patient, compassionate, considerate, but how do we know that Muhammad was all these things? We are told to emulate the Prophet, but how can we know exactly how? Patience, compassion etc. are very logically a "good" way to behave, but what about other, less obvious characteristics? We should be wary about placing the life of a 5th century person directly into our current situation, but that doesn't (for example) change the fact that 2.5% of your income is a nice, affordable, rounded-up sum to give to charity.

Another example: The verse containing the actual alleged prohibition of alcohol refers to it as "khamr". Now the root word "khamr" means "fermentation" (ie. alcohol), but it is also taken to mean "intoxicants". Now, if I took the word to mean intoxicants, I would say: Ok, I can have whatever I want, as long as I am not intoxicated by it (otherwise it can be argued that ANYTHING can be considered intoxicating if you have it too much). If I didn't have the Hadith about how the revealation that alcohol was banned came to the Prophet, I would stick to my own idea, which would be wrong.

Of course, I'm not saying that muslims today don't desperately need to reform, "through off the centuries of rubbish" that got added on, etc. Your approach to the problem (disregarding all but the Quran), is not exactly unique -There are a number of sects that ascribe to it (Your a sect now )- but I don't personally believe (for all that is worth,) that it is correct.

Great to hear from you, looking forward to more discussion.

Oh, and by the way, we all got our share of heavenly virgins (or companions, depending on how you translate it) waiting for us . At least according to the Quran.

[edit on 11-11-2005 by babloyi]

as salaam alaikum Babloyi

your argument regarding hadith....well, i have been through this so many times with sunnis, so let me ask you some questions.
When God asks you in the Quran.....what hadith will they believe in after this?
Do you say....none?
Or do you say.....bukharis?

Secondly, no matter how much you tell me about transmissions of hadith etc, you cannot get past the fact that a) God never told us we need another book after the Quran, and b) you can never be sure that what you reading was in fact a saying of the Prophet. You cant.
You said:

The simplest check is to see if it contradicts what is in the Quran in any way

really?....stoning?,....hijab?.....5 prayers?......the way you perform ablutions?....the way you say prayers?.....the way you make distinctions between muhammad and other prophets?....the way you pay salaam to muhammad during prayers even though we are told to devote our prayers to God ALONE?...the amount of zakat? (its all very well and good, you saying it was just rounded up.....but the truth is, it contradicts the Quran, does it not?.....if so, why are you following it?

You also say:

Your approach to the problem (disregarding all but the Quran), is not exactly unique -There are a number of sects that ascribe to it (Your a sect now )- but I don't personally believe (for all that is worth,) that it is correct.

i actually said, i wasnt unique in this. To say that i am part of a sect however, is wrong, with all due respect
I am following what muhammad followed....the words of God (Quran)
It is you, who are following muhammad/bukhari/tirmidhi etc. It is you and your sect that has added the innovations to islam.

I respect that you dont believe that its correct. But answer me one more thing. If i didnt have any access to hadith collections.....could i be a good muslim by just following the quran?

aisha

p.s, i do belive that we all get holy companions in the afterlife.....a far cry from the 72 virgins purely for men though, wouldnt you agree?

[edit on 11-11-2005 by geek101]

babloyi wrote

Another example: The verse containing the actual alleged prohibition of alcohol refers to it as "khamr". Now the root word "khamr" means "fermentation" (ie. alcohol), but it is also taken to mean "intoxicants". Now, if I took the word to mean intoxicants, I would say: Ok, I can have whatever I want, as long as I am not intoxicated by it (otherwise it can be argued that ANYTHING can be considered intoxicating if you have it too much). If I didn't have the Hadith about how the revealation that alcohol was banned came to the Prophet, I would stick to my own idea, which would be wrong

but the verses concerning this, tell us to abstain from intoxicants.....not to just NOT get intoxicated. It clearly says, stay away from intoxicants. There is no ambiguity there, as far as i am concerned.

You also said (which i forgot to address in my other post):

I agree that much of the Hadith has been distorted, and there are a large number of "horror stories" of how people have "extracted" something completely unislamic out of the Hadith

Exactly. Now think about this please. What is more logical:
1: God gives us the Quran, He tells us that He left nothing out of it, that it is detailed and has basic verses in it.....He gives us this Book and we are to live by it
2: The same as above, but He also waits a couple of hundred of years, then He makes 90% of our religion dependant upon another set of books, written by various people whom we do not know

?

Simple thing is, while God promised to preserve the Quran, He made no such promise for anything else.

salaam
aisha

[edit on 11-11-2005 by geek101]

Originally posted by geek101
I agree that the majority of muslims are not extremists, and do not wish to harm anyone or to have Islamic rule in non-islamic countries....and i would go as far to say that anyone who condones terrorist actions, has no actual right to be affiliated with ANY religion.

[edit on 11-11-2005 by geek101]

Mubrouk on a wonderful submission concerning this topic
I would like your opinion on a thought I have had concerning recent events and the above statement you make (as I believe this also)

How realisitic do you think it could be that the majority who are not extremists stand up to those who are and projecting such a bad side of Islam and how they practice ?
What I mean is, do you think this could be a possible reality ? That those who want the message of what Islam actually is about and entails try foil their beliefs with those which are truthful ?

Look forward to your comments, I dare not ask this of the Muslims I do know as they pretty much answer me with all the answers you point out are not true in relation to other questions I have had lol
My parents have dismissed it, saying the faithful followers, who do practice correctly, would not involve themselves in such a mission.

Would this be considered a negative (unheard of action against your own, if you will) against their own people, even in light of what they are doing (suiicide bomings etc ...) ?

Or do you think this is a possibility that may help the current state of Islam and how it is percieved ?

Thank you.


[edit on 11-11-2005 by ImJaded]

What do I believe in after the Quran? The answer is in the Hadith :
I hope you'll excuse me for not knowing the exact hadith. But I believe it went something like this:
If I can't find what I search for in the Quran, I check the sayings of the Prophet. If I can't find it there, I'll use my own judgement.

I don't really consider the Hadith as "a book". More as a collection of sayings and occurences collected together. Since I wasn't around at the time of the Prophet, they are my simplest link to what he said. You are absolutely right in saying that I can never actually tell if they are the sayings of the Prophet. Thus, as I said, checking if it contradicts the Quran. The examples you quoted all are either backed up by or contradicted by the Quran. The Quran mentions modesty and covering your bossom when travelling. You can take that however you want in favour or against hijab. The method for wudhu (ablutions) is directly mentioned in the Quran. I don't see how 2.5% zakat contradicts the Quran. You have an obligation to give a certain amount, but after that, give as much as you want, all the better for you.

Originally posted by geek101
i actually said, i wasnt unique in this. To say that i am part of a sect however, is wrong, with all due respect
I am following what muhammad followed....the words of God (Quran)
It is you, who are following muhammad/bukhari/tirmidhi etc. It is you and your sect that has added the innovations to islam.

'Twas a joke! Hence the smiley. I'm following what Muhammad followed as well. Hence the Hadith. I am not, however, entrenched in any Hadith collection. I use my own head and logic whatever I am studying.

Originally posted by geek101
I respect that you dont believe that its correct. But answer me one more thing. If i didnt have any access to hadith collections.....could i be a good muslim by just following the quran?

I am hardly the end-all judge of you! God is the final judge. Just because I don't do some things the way you do them, doesn't mean I have a right over you. It's just my understanding that the Quran itself says that our earthly example (as far as it is applicable to today) of "good conduct" was Muhammad.

Originally posted by geek101
but the verses concerning this, tell us to abstain from intoxicants.....not to just NOT get intoxicated. It clearly says, stay away from intoxicants. There is no ambiguity there, as far as i am concerned.

But like I said, ANYTHING you do to an excess even if it is "technically legal", (be it eating too much food, indulging in too much sex) can become an intoxication. The Quran doesn't tell us to abstain from all that. That is referred to elsewhere: We have to do everything in moderation. That specific verse is referring to alcohol (or drugs, if you want to take a slightly broader view).

Originally posted by geek101
Exactly. Now think about this please. What is more logical:
1: God gives us the Quran, He tells us that He left nothing out of it, that it is detailed and has basic verses in it.....He gives us this Book and we are to live by it
2: The same as above, but He also waits a couple of hundred of years, then He makes 90% of our religion dependant upon another set of books, written by various people whom we do not know

Did you know that before all schools of Islamic thought except the current 4 were banned, there were hundreds of different schools of thought? People were encouraged to question EVERYTHING. That is what I was referring to when I said that the Islamic world needs a reformation. The Hadith weren't written by various people, they were collected by various people, from those who had direct contact with Muhammad. There are several different compilers, who never met each other, who lived far apart, but who's compilations remarkeably match each other. Those that didn't, were excluded (or are considered untrustworthy). Still, you don't understand my point of view. I am fully aware that some of it may be false, but that is why there is a back-up. Even when studying history, when there are so many different sources that say the same thing, you can consider that their subject matter had at least SOME historical backing.

[edit on 11-11-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
My point is, it's all very well to say that we should be like Muhammad - patient, compassionate, considerate, but how do we know that Muhammad was all these things?
[edit on 11-11-2005 by babloyi]

Is it not obvious, the same way we know Jesus was all of those things, and perhaps much more. A man with faith in Jesus is no different from a man with faith in Muhammad, he believes it because his heart tells him so and because he is devoted to what he believe in. What crime is it to believe in something? These men - Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, and much more - represent the ideal nature of what men should be. Is wrong to learn from such great avatars. The only crime would be ignorant and ignore or deny what these men could teach us due to fear of the masses would say and not taking a risk to embrace their teachings.

Originally posted by geek101
..to believe in ALL the Prophets and NOT to make distinction between ANY of them..

geek101, is it not best for a man to think before he embrace into uncertainty? Yes it's good to learn from what you would call "Prophets" but it this day and age, who are we to say and determine if one could be a true "Prophets", we live not in a simple world, but a complex and even deadly one. In this day an age many false "Prophets" exist, only reap the goods and wealth of the people, bring fear of the future in the hearts of modern men, and to corrupt religion even more. It is hard to determine a true "Prophets" from a fake, so that's why it's best to find wisdom from yourself and from what you previous "Prophets". There is so much teaching of the previous "Prophets" that we have yet not learned. It's important to hear and learn from these previous "Prophets" before we should listen to the modern one.

[edit on 11-11-2005 by skyblueff0]

Originally posted by skyblueff0
Is it not obvious, the same way we know Jesus was all of those things, and perhaps much more. A man with faith in Jesus is no different from a man with faith in Muhammad, he believes it because his heart tells him so and because he is devoted to what he believe in. What crime is it to believe in something? These men - Jesus, Muhammad, Buddah, and much more - represent the ideal nature of what men should be. Is wrong to learn from such great avatars. The only crime would be ignorant and ignore or deny what these men could teach us due to fear of the masses would say and not taking a risk to embrace their teachings.

I absolutely agree with you! I believe that Muhammad was an ideal example to follow, as was Jesus, and Buddha, etc. I was just making a point to explain my side of the argument.

Heheh....I have a feeling that geek was referring to past prophets, not some future ones. Muhammad was supposed to be the last Prophet. After him there is only Jesus (when he returns), and Elijah (I think?). To believe in all Prophets- meaning all the way from Adam, Noah, Abraham....to Muhammad.

Hi ImJaded

Thanks :-)

You asked:

How realisitic do you think it could be that the majority who are not extremists stand up to those who are and projecting such a bad side of Islam and how they practice

Hmm, well, thats a tough one. I mean, there are plenty of muslims who are downright against such things. There is no doubt there. I have never met a muslim (and i know many, from many different countries) who agrees with such things.
However....lol.....these same muslims will very rarely stand up and speak out against such actions. They will indeed (whilst chatting) condemn such activities, but i think thats as far as it would go.

In fact, i'm not quite sure how, short of a complete islamic revolution, they could do more.

Of course, muslim groups/associations have been very vocal in condeming these things. And for that i applaud them. But at the same time, they still preach things that are not part of islam.

My parents have dismissed it, saying the faithful followers, who do practice correctly, would not involve themselves in such a mission

Yeah, thats a pretty standard response i think. Muslims in general will distance themselves by claiming that true believers wouldnt do such things anyway. Which is true.

But the perception of islam around the world does not all come from terrorists and extremists. Alot of misconceptions about islam also concern things like muslims being uneducated, women being inferior, people steeped in superstitions.
So to address that problem of standing up and showing the true islam, they would also have to address the problems that THEY have brought too.

Having said that, i can see that doing something like this (a complete vocalisation against suicide bombers and the like) would perhaps not be possible anyway, because there would be an awful lot of people to convince :-)

I think perhaps the best way this could be solved, is for muslims themselves, first of all, to sort out their problems. To stop blaming the world and its mother for everything that goes wrong. If that were achieved, then maybe a more positive perception of islam could be shown, consequently denying the extremists their claims of religious activities.

I am rambling here...lol....its a hard question :-)
I wish it were possible, i dont think it is. Not in the present climate.

Would this be considered a negative (unheard of action against your own, if you will) against their own people, even in light of what they are doing (suiicide bomings etc ...) ?

I dont think this is so. I think muslims in general are pretty miffed at these people for giving islam an even worse name.
For me personally, i really think the time has come for muslims to re-evaluate their position in this world. We are a huge number, and we DO have a responsibilty to act in a tolerant manner and we should start doing so.
I hope i am starting something in a small way (very small way) by teaching my children the truth about islam.

If i didnt answer your question properly, i apologise.
its late here, i'm tired and...well....thats my excuse

aisha

Originally posted by babloyi
I absolutely agree with you! I believe that Muhammad was an ideal example to follow, as was Jesus, and Buddha, etc. I was just making a point to explain my side of the argument.

Heheh....I have a feeling that geek was referring to past prophets, not some future ones. Muhammad was supposed to be the last Prophet. After him there is only Jesus (when he returns), and Elijah (I think?). To believe in all Prophets- meaning all the way from Adam, Noah, Abraham....to Muhammad.

Man I'm so glad this is an intelligent discussion. Well in my opinion I don't see how Adam (that is if you're referring to the one in Genesis) could be a prophet. What I'm trying to say here is I believe some story written in scriptures, and religious books (not just the Bible, I assure you) are fabricated and made up so people can easily interpret the moral values of lessons of the stories as one could say. To basically help people memorize a lesson, and be reminded of it each time they reheard the same the story. I then believe that there are certain stories that are legit and not fabricated. I believe that the events told in the stories did occur, and the lessons are more taught more directly.

Even if some Prophets were fabricated Prophets I think its good if we follow their lessons, I mean its for good intensions and meaningful purposes. Thats what seperate them from a "false" Prophets.

Haha, my bad, well my apologize then, I wasn't sure what he meant by "Prophets" well thanks for clarifying that for me. So far it seems that we all have stand firm in this discussion. Much respect.

Originally posted by geek101

I think perhaps the best way this could be solved, is for muslims themselves, first of all, to sort out their problems. To stop blaming the world and its mother for everything that goes wrong. If that were achieved, then maybe a more positive perception of islam could be shown, consequently denying the extremists their claims of religious activities.

I think that applies for everyone and not just islam. I wrote a quote very similar to what you just said. I think it might be to your liking: I pray to God that one day men will bury the sins of their parents and grandparents, and live life anew in peace at last.

[edit on 11-11-2005 by skyblueff0]

I too am delighted with the way this discussion is unfolding skyblueff0

Thank You for your response geek101, I understand it to be a hard question to answer but it was something I had been thinking of lately considering all the Muslims I know are condeming the actions of these extremimsts also. So my thought pattern went something like "Well hey if there are so many of us condeming these people's actions why don't we let it be known to them and condemn them publicly, not just in our homes ? "
But yes, I see it would most likely not ever happen.

I am enjoying this thread thoroughly

In 1997 the highest religious authority in Saudi Arabia stated that the Earth is flat and any muslim who disagrees is an infadel to be killed.

So, are the leaders the extremists? Or just the cells of highschool aged kids who give the excuse "its the only way i'd ever get to have sex with 72 virgins" when caught trying to kill Jews while blowing themselves up with C4 and ball bearings.

Every week a different religious authority or leader of muslim country comes out and publicly states that their top priority is pushing the Jews into the sea and killing every last one. Regime changes are the only option left, and if the country majority does willingly follow the extremist party-line, then a war is necessary for the safety of the world against a country that would sponsor international terror. I would rather see muslims rioting in their own countries everytime their leaders set commandments for them to kill every non-mulsim they meet. But that never happens, and American muslims never speak out against jihadist fatwas (sp?).