The media are minimising US and British war crimes in Iraq

The reporting of the Iraqi death toll - both in its scale and account of who is doing the killing - is profoundly dishonest

We were told that the Iraqis don't count. Before the invasion began, the head of US central command, General Thomas Franks, boasted that "we don't do body counts". His claim was repeated by Donald Rumsfeld in November 2003 ("We don't do body counts on other people") and the Pentagon last January ("The only thing we keep track of is casualties for US troops and civilians").

But it's not true. Almost every week the Pentagon claims to have killed 50 or 70 or 100 insurgents in its latest assault on the latest stronghold of the ubiquitous monster Zarqawi. In May the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff said that his soldiers had killed 250 of Zarqawi's "closest lieutenants" (or so 500 of his best friends had told him). But last week, the Pentagon did something new. Buried in its latest security report to Congress is a bar chart labelled "average daily casualties - Iraqi and coalition. 1 Jan 04-16 Sep 05". The claim that it kept no track of Iraqi deaths was false.

It was a household survey - of 988 homes in 33 randomly selected districts - and it suggested, on the basis of the mortality those households reported before and after the invasion, that the risk of death in Iraq had risen by a factor of 1.5; somewhere between 8,000 and 194,000 extra people had died, with the most probable figure being 98,000. Around half the deaths, if Falluja was included, or 15% if it was not, were caused by violence, and the majority of those by attacks on the part of US forces.

In the US and the UK, the study was either ignored or torn to bits. The media described it as "inflated", "overstated", "politicised" and "out of proportion". Just about every possible misunderstanding and distortion of its statistics was published, of which the most remarkable was the Observer's claim that: "The report's authors admit it drew heavily on the rebel stronghold of Falluja, which has been plagued by fierce fighting. Strip out Falluja, as the study itself acknowledged, and the mortality rate is reduced dramatically." In fact, as they made clear on page one, the authors had stripped out Falluja; their estimate of 98,000 deaths would otherwise have been much higher.

And what of the idea that most of the violent deaths in Iraq are caused by coalition troops? Well according to the Houston Chronicle, even Blair's favourite data source, the Iraqi health ministry, reports that twice as many Iraqis - and most of them civilians - are being killed by US and UK forces as by insurgents. When the Pentagon claims that it has just killed 50 or 70 or 100 rebel fighters, we have no means of knowing who those people really were. Everyone it blows to pieces becomes a terrorist. In July Jack Keane, the former vice chief of staff of the US army, claimed that coalition troops had killed or captured more than 50,000 "insurgents" since the start of the rebellion. Perhaps they were all Zarqawi's closest lieutenants.

Source:
Guardian Unlimited

Interesting Article.

It is so Easy for the US and UK forces to "maintain" this Bodycount:

Everyone that they kill is an Insurgent or Terrorist, so that makes them enemy combatants immediatly. If there were any Civilans among them is not relevant. They just blow-up the House, and then when everybody inside is Dead, they leave them there.

Explains why the US Marines stormed the Hospital in Fallujah, when they attacked it one Year Ago. The Bodycount must be Controlled!

And MUST IMPORTANT - US and UK tropps DO NOT Kill Civilans.

When they are killed by Coalition fire, they immediatly become Terrorists.

It is important to remember that while tragic, the fault for these civilian deaths lies squarely at the feet of the insurgents, and to a lesser degree, the civilians that house them.

The insurgents hide among the civilians in their homes, mosques, hospitals, and schools. They think they will be safe doing so. A terrorist feels no shame in holding a child in front of him as a human shield. But those days are long past. The civilians would definitely benefit from an educational thrust to encourage them not to shelter the insurgents. Now that al Zarqawi has inflicted a fatal wound on his support base because of his murder of innocent Jordanians this past week, it won't be long before we see him hoisted by his own petard, swinging morosely in the wind.

So, you say that the damn insurgents use civilians as living shields?
Hmmm, I beg to say that this is the Israeli way of doing fight, as you can recently hear about it, that even their court forbiden them such practic to use anymore

So, the Izraelis feel no shame too?
( www.timesonline.co.uk... )

And US army feel no shame too?
No shame for shooting civilians? No shame from occupating a country?
No shame for not even counting the deaths of civilians?!

I quess the US army is overrated...

...besides, even the official US army soldiers death tool is sort-of bogus. There are 3 or four stations to process the personall belongins of the dead soldiers and send them to their families. Even one of these stations major who dare to speak out say, about 4 months ago, that only his unit alone processed a little over 3 000 of these personal belongings. Now match this up with the rest of the units and the (ATM about 1 600 dead US soldiers) official death tool...

The war reports must be optimistis, is not it?
So, no photos of coffins, let's better not count the causualites of covilians and let's fake the death tool of ours guys a little...

(my personall favorite is, that when the 17 soldiers and pilot was lost in the Afghanistan, when Chinook heli "found" one of the thousads Stingers US supply to the Freedom Fighters, the death tool was two or there soldiers this day :lol

Remember, guys, it is also a information war - eg. both sides trying to supply bogus informations as muc, as it's need.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Now that al Zarqawi has inflicted a fatal wound on his support base because of his murder of innocent Jordanians this past week, it won't be long before we see him hoisted by his own petard, swinging morosely in the wind.

I do not think that Zarqawi would do anything like that.

If you check the facts, it is more likely that an Isreali Agency is behind that attack, since half of the Victims were Palestinian, and that it happened in His Home country.

What would he GAIN from that?

And what would Isreal & the US gain?

Answer yourself to these Questions, and maybe, just MAYBE you will be closer to understanding.


trodas

Excellent Post!

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by jsobecky
Now that al Zarqawi has inflicted a fatal wound on his support base because of his murder of innocent Jordanians this past week, it won't be long before we see him hoisted by his own petard, swinging morosely in the wind.

I do not think that Zarqawi would do anything like that.

You assume that Zarqawi is thinking clearly. Look at his history with open eyes, without denial. The man has worms crawling in his brain. How can you take anything that he does as a logical step?

If you check the facts, it is more likely that an Isreali Agency is behind that attack, since half of the Victims were Palestinian, and that it happened in His Home country.

Bah! Strictly your opinion, and not a well-formed one at that.

trodas

Excellent Post!

trodas

Your post is disjointed and rambling and it reeks of apologist pap. It does not address anything put forward.

Your overuse of the word "shame" is quite amusing, though. "Shame" is something that toothless old women wearing babushkas use to make a five-year old hang his head. It doesn't work here, except to give us a chuckle.

Edit typos

[edit on 11-11-2005 by jsobecky]

His posts swing further than apologist, they are basically anti-west propoganda with a hint of Islamofasim.

souljah,
the israeli newspaper has retracted their statement that israelis were given prior warning.
as for the al-queda link that you are so desperately trying to deny:

Nov 11, 2005 — DUBAI (Reuters) - An Iraqi married couple and two other men carried out the suicide bombings at three hotels in the Jordanian capital Amman which killed 57 people this week, al Qaeda in Iraq said in an Internet statement on Friday.
"A group of martyrdom-seekers carried out the planning and implementation. They comprised three men and a woman who decided to accompany her husband on the path to martyrdom," said the statement posted on a site often used by the al Qaeda in Iraq.
"It was agreed to use suicide belts for precision and to cause maximum damage," the statement said.
"The attackers managed to enter the targets bypassing all the security measures that the agent of the British, the treacherous (King) Abdullah, has always boasted about."
The statement said they were all Iraqis and gave their names.

emphasis mine

zakawi is doing his very best to take credit for this tragedy. If he and his group are not responsible... then how do they have the NAMES of the bombers already???????

abcnews.go.com...

How hard is it to "Stage" a suicide bomb attack?

All you have to do, is to set up bombs in a Hotel, then wait for the so-called "suicide bombers" to arrive and blow everything to pieces.

Nobody that was there is around anymore to Testify about what REALLY happened.

And since all the Witneses are Dead, you can call it anything you like - and in this time and age, just about every blast CAN and IS called a Terrorist attack.

So, looking from this point of view, staging a suicide bomb run, is easy as 1-2-3. Everyone will belive, that it was some "Islamic Terrorists", I mean WHO ELSE would do it?

And I thought I was on a Conspiracy Board...

With Current methods of training the military this is no shock, every single film i have seen of a camera crew following an american unit really does a good job at showing how gun-ho 90% of them are, there was one clip of an ITV film crew with (i think) an airbourne unit and they where clearley just attacking a town, not the fighters in the town but just the town it self there was no decernable difference between fighters and civ's. and the soldiers where sayin how desperate they all where to kill people, now i know that the militery is an evil entity that is the one and only threat to world piece but come on boys show some compassion! it is like they have been trained to kill anything without an american accent!

the method must change or the situation will only get worse...... I say ban guns worldwide! and lock up all politicians and start again...

My 2c

Daz Out

Originally posted by Souljah

And I thought I was on a Conspiracy Board...

Yeah it is, but not every event has a conspiracy behind it. Jsobecky already made my other points regarding the fallacy of your views, so I won't bother repeating them.

Muslims Butchering fellow Muslims is a war crime!

That should be the title of this thread.

Maximu§

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Muslims Butchering fellow Muslims is a war crime!

What about US Troops Butcherng Muslims? In your book thats "War on Terrorism".

Well I think that Your Posts are Complete and Utter Fallacy - an Conservative Pro War Illustion, designed to keep the Hands of the US Army CLEAN at all cost at all times.

Guardian is again called a Lefty-Liberal-Islamo-Fascist Newspaper and good old Marines Saved the Day Again!

YAY!!!

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by jsobecky
Now that al Zarqawi has inflicted a fatal wound on his support base because of his murder of innocent Jordanians this past week, it won't be long before we see him hoisted by his own petard, swinging morosely in the wind.

I do not think that Zarqawi would do anything like that.
If you check the facts...

Perhaps in your quest to check facts, you happened to miss this?
Zarqawi justifies killing innocent Muslims.

Incidentally, I failed to see your response to the factoid topic linked?
Ironic?
A Paradox?
Or simply a selective hypocrite?

Oh wait, perhaps in the further pursuit to check facts, you failed to miss these, as well? One started by you.
The Logic of Suicide Terrorism: It’s the Occupation, not the Fundamentalism
Why It Makes “Sense” For the Resistance to Target Innocent Iraqis

Nothing more than 'a' typical Souljah selectiveness when it comes to minimizing insurgent and terrorist acts of war crimes and solely concentrating on the US and UK. Anti-war and pro-terrorism sentiments, nothing more, nothing less, Souljah. Your doing a fine job in staying in step...





seekerof

[edit on 11-11-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Perhaps in your quest to check facts, you happened to miss this?
Zarqawi justifies killing innocent Muslims.

Now, how do we Know these are FACTS?

BTW, the Link provided in that post is gone bye-bye.

Incidentally, I failed to see your response to the factoid topic linked?
Ironic?
A Paradox?
Or simply a selective hypocrite?

So, by not responding to each and every thread concerning this "terrorist leader" I am now a Hypocrite?

What about YOU not writing anything regarding my original topic of this post? About the SELECTIVE reports in the Media?

A Paradox?

Or Simpl Selective you-know-what...

Oh wait, perhaps in the further pursuit to check facts, you failed to miss these, as well? One started by you.
The Logic of Suicide Terrorism: It’s the Occupation, not the Fundamentalism
Why It Makes “Sense” For the Resistance to Target Innocent Iraqis

Whats FACTS is that?

That Al-Zarqawi was CREATED by CIA?

That Al-Qaeda is a CIA Operation from the START?

How come you never mention that?

Nothing more than 'a' typical Souljah selectiveness when it comes to minimizing insurgent and terrorist acts of war crimes and solely concentrating on the US and UK. Anti-war and pro-terrorism sentiments, nothing more, nothing less, Souljah. Your doing a fine job in staying in step...

I see you stay on your typical pro-war selectivness, minimizing US Acts of War crime and putting the Entire Blame on the Terrorists.

Pro-War, Anti-Terrorism Sentiments, Seekerof, nothing more, nothing less...

Originally posted by Souljah

Now, how do we Know these are FACTS?

BTW, the Link provided in that post is gone bye-bye.

really??? i just clicked on it and it still there. maybe u just dont want to see it? u cant defend Zarqawi's actions so u just say he is an agent of the CIA blah blah blah. dats all u can say.

[edit on 11-11-2005 by deltaboy]

Originally posted by Souljah
I see you stay on your typical pro-war selectivness, minimizing US Acts of War crime and putting the Entire Blame on the Terrorists.

What crimes? I read through all of your drivel again and I fail to see concrete proof of what you claim. Then again, you never are one for backing up what you say with definitive proof of anything.


You have absolutely no respect for American (or anyone else's) armed forces at all, do you? You have no faith in their ability to prevent things like what you claim from happening.

deltaboy,
this is the normal merry-go-round
First it was not al-zakawi it was the cia
then it was the israelis
now it is zakawi the cia operative......
it cannot not be al-queda or any islamic extremist faction.
it all is the satans of the world you know them as israel and the usa.
Right souljah?

I see you stay on your typical pro-war selectivness

Soljah, you are just as over the top with your selectiveness.

Originally posted by Souljah
And MUST IMPORTANT - US and UK tropps DO NOT Kill Civilans.

When they are killed by Coalition fire, they immediatly become Terrorists.

Jihadists NEVER kill innocents either, right? If they shoot an innocent, they become apostates or hypocrites. Both crimes carry the penalty of death. How convenient.

Whatever happened to the Islamic quote "..killing an innocent is like killing all of humanity.."?

Originally posted by Souljah

What about US Troops Butcherng Muslims? In your book thats "War on Terrorism".

What about insurgents beheading innocent reporters and contractors? What about insurgents taking their own people that are working with the US to rebuild Iraq and shooting them execution style in the street? I think you’ll find that abuse is going to happen regardless and at least the USA is being held accountable for some of it which means its less likely to happen and it certainly doesn’t happen to the graphic extent in which insurgents devalue human life. We hold suspected terrorist in camps and get crucified in the media for pissing on the Koran, yet nothing is said when they hold “prisoners” and behead them in a week. Go figure…

Yes I know the abuse is more than desecrating the Koran, but you get my point…


[edit on 11-11-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

If you would know, how Easy it is to Anger you people, you would not ever bothered to answer to any of my posts at all.

Seriously - I think that the Media has done an Excellent Job and has Trained you people Very Well. You are beliving every story they sell to you without any doubts whatsoever. Now, that is hard to do, especially in this day and age, when the Information exchange is Fast, yet sometimes guarded like a priceless diamond.

But, you people - the Jihadist Haters - do not even know what JIHAD is, yet you are so Smart about it. Here, let Uncle Souljah Teach you all a LESSON:

JIHAD or arabic جهاد (jihād), means "to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle" and has a Wide Range of Meanings. Jihad is MOST MISUNDERSTOOD aspect of Islamic Religion of the non-Muslims - they all belive, or KNOW, that Jihad is closely connected to Warfare. That could not be further from Truth about Jihad. It has several meanings, and two major forms:

- Greater Jihad; Jihad al-Akbar: internal struggle, struggle against ones soul
- Lesser Jihad; Jihad al-Asgar: external struggle, related to physical effort

There are also 5 Kinds of Jihad fi Sabilillah, struggle in the cause of God:

- Jihad of the Heart/Soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb)
- Jihad by the Tongue (jihad bil lisan)
- Jihad by the Pen/Knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm)
- Jihad by the Hand (jihad bil yad)
- Jihad by the Sword (jihad bis saif)

So, guess which one of these Five is related to Armed Fighting.

Anway, that was a Short Lesson, that I hope learned some of you, something.

Also you might want to read the Rules of War in Islam

Thank You,
Class Dismissed!

[edit on 11/11/05 by Souljah]