communism isnt an economic idea like democracy isnt one either, socialism and capitalism is what we're talking about, for example, china is a capitalist communist country, their growing, living standards are improving, etc. not free or anything else and i dont know if this has been said but the idea of democracy, the republic and capitalism are good but its how its employed by a government that matters, if used wrong, it has a negative impact, will not be productive and will collapse.

thats one reason the constitution in america then copied by many other nations was written to keep that good idea from being ruined and collapsing, the economic idea of capitalism evolved from the ideas written in the constitution, capitalism just needs time to improve before its perfected, i wouldnt give up on it yet.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
why did we beat the russians to the moon? why do we have a space shuttle when the russians still dont have one? why have most of our aircraft over come thier disadvantages to the russian ones? WHY DID STALIN STEAL THE PLANS FOR THE B-29? Why did they rely in the Rosenbergs to give them the plans for the Bomb? there will be far fewer scientific advantages under a communist system than a capitalist system! its always been that way. You want to know WHY? the GNP is spent mainly on the military in the communist systems of today. look at china and N. Korea. Science needs money, otherwise your country will be left behind!

Communist nations have to, or had to, spend a lot of money on their military because if they were weak, the Americans would invade and replace the government. If the USA hadn't been so paranoid, and had been willing to let these nations get on with conducting the most important social experiment in history, then communism might have worked more for the betterment of humanity.

Capitalism, and money, do nothing for scientific advancement, besides in some cases upping the stakes in competition. Things simply don't get done, especially large building projects, because of money and corruption.

Look at projects like the Egyptian Pyramids. There was no paperwork involved, the workers were, instead of being paid money, given a home and as much food as they needed in return for their services. One of the greatest achievements of humanity, and none of the beauraucracy we see today in capitalist society.

-

"We will not rest until the last capitalist has been strangled with the guts of the last beauraucrat"

Tass - sorry to call you out like this but you made a startling point. Startling because it comes from a confessed Christian:

What did Jesus say about these points?

"How can you possibly accept being the same as everyone else? "

and

" If we were the same as everyone else, we'd be in one of those "love yourself, love your mother, love you brother, love your father, love your planet..." utopian societies"

..... well?

China and North Korea are not communist...

for the millionth time, they are more a mix of weird socialism and dictatorships.

If it was not for Socialism, my whole family would not be here today. During the great war, my grandfathersboth fought the Germans under Russian command. When the war was over, one went to the USA and one stayed in Poland and joined the Communist Party. The one in the United States worked a low paying job and was constantly fighting for survival. The one that joined the communist party, recieved a free education, food when he needed it, and the motivation that he was working for the common good. They paid for his colledge and he became a dentist. He still lives in Poland, still a supporter of his former government.

He says that with Socialism, at least the children were not going hungry on the streets. It's so bad that children are fainting in classrooms. There's enough food to go around, except it wouldn't be profitable to give it to people now would it?

Done wrong, Socialism somewhat worked... imagine what it could do when it is done right?

[Edited on 21-10-2003 by PolskieWojsko]

[Edited on 21-10-2003 by PolskieWojsko]

I can't beleive I am even replying to this topic.
No one preaching the wonders of socialism has made a decent point.

The point about the pyramids, and providing housing and food in return for them building the pyramids?!?!?
You just described slavery. You likened communism and socialism to slavery, which it basically is. You get told what to do, you cannot do what you want no matter how hard you work.
You slack people that grew up socialist and can't adjust to capitalism are just like the people in the US that grew up on welfare: lazy. I don't wanna hear it. Their are so many low paying jobs that if one has some brains and work ethic, you could move up through the ranks and build a life for yourself. #ing work. #ing have some drive and ambition. If you don't, stop breeding and contributing to the regression of society. We need doers, makers, workers, innovatrors. Not complainers, and certainly not communism. I am disgusted with myself for even acknowledging this thread. Communism as a form of government and socialism as an economic model are nothing short of deplorable.

[Edited on 22-10-2003 by stumpy]

Originally posted by KrazyIvan

Originally posted by banjoechef
you think science only progresses because scientists make money? man thats a shallow thought

why did we beat the russians to the moon? why do we have a space shuttle when the russians still dont have one? why have most of our aircraft over come thier disadvantages to the russian ones? WHY DID STALIN STEAL THE PLANS FOR THE B-29? Why did they rely in the Rosenbergs to give them the plans for the Bomb? there will be far fewer scientific advantages under a communist system than a capitalist system! its always been that way. You want to know WHY? the GNP is spent mainly on the military in the communist systems of today. look at china and N. Korea. Science needs money, otherwise your country will be left behind!

you've missed my point, point was they dind't do the research for the money in it so much as making the discovery i'm sure, if i was a scientist i wouldn't be learning all the stuff they need to know just fer the monye there are far easier jobs which make u just as much money, i was just saying that money doesn't drive discovery, man drives discovery, this was to rebute a comment about a stagnent state of development due to communistic practise, not to say that it has been shown in history, because there has been no true communisms with which to show such evidence

The truth is capitalism is a cold system, and it could never truly work without social government programs. If capitalism was practiced without these programs it would cause chaos as the mass poor would turn against the few rich. We live in a society of violent money crimes just imagine capitalism without a socialistic net.

Pure capitalism would fail because the cost of control. I think we see that alot here in the states. We spend billions on top of billions keeping the impoverished in line--that includes social programs and law enforcement. The gap between the super rich and the super poor is growing and as it grows so does discontent. Folk willingly buy that "you can be anything in america" motto, but if you are born poor and don't have access to funds and governmental programs such as federal student aid for college that idea will fall on death ears. So it's important that we protect these programs because without them there will be no hope for the future in the largest segments of our population.

Capitalism works in america because of social programs that help folk willing to put in the time and effort to be more and do more. Captialism alone would never work especially in america. It is a flawed system, but the way it is practiced here creates opportunity for those at the bottom who have the mind to excell, and those success stories keep the system somewhat stable.

You have to fight to overcome poverty in our system, and very few make it. But, the opportunity is there. It's just up to the will of the individual.



[Edited on 22-10-2003 by Saphronia]

Things change, so it is not possible for me to point to the past as perfect examples, but I do not think that social programs and controls are necessary. At least, they would not have been necessary had it not been for the fact that part of the human spirit has been destroyed by the programs already in place. While there is no doubt that many people have enough self-respect and honor, couple with a strong will to succeed and these things combined motivate them to excel in the world, many people would only attempt to succeed if thir very survival depended on it. Now, the social reengineers have made sure that the winners will support those who won't even bother to get in the race. After this damage has been done, what can you do to fix it? Kill the millions that expect the rest to support them? Of course not. So, I suppose my dear Saphie is right, again, we have to have programs so that some do not let their families starve.

The ONLY "systems" that have FAILED in the Modern Era are the SOCIALIST/COMMUNIST systems!

Capitalism is ALIVE and WELL. WHAT the FORK are you people TALKING ABOUT here?!

This BLOWS my mind! (albeit my mind DOES have LIMITED mental faculties but still!) I can't beleive I just read all these posts begging for the downfall of Capitalism when it is THE ONLY system that allows one to rise as HIGH as one is able, allows for the care taking of those who can't "play" and PUNISHES those who are NOT WILLING to get of their lazy asses and DO SOMETHING.
Wow!

P...
m...

Capitalism does not survive because of the social programs the US has set up....It survives IN SPITE of them. I'll elaborate further, preferably in a debate topic....

I have bad news for everyone, Capitalism as an economic model on top of this alleged Democratic government model isn't working for a lot of people. Wasn't the U.S. designed to be a Republic, not a Democracy? Capitalism ontop of Democracy would work a lot better if the two major parties didn't disagree so drastically on their domestic policies. And in most places, Socialism/Communism didn't fail, someone who was powerhungry overthrew the government. That's not failure, that's revolution. That's how America came to be, would you call the UK a failure for not keeping the U.S. as a colony?

Originally posted by stumpy
I can't beleive I am even replying to this topic.
No one preaching the wonders of socialism has made a decent point.

The point about the pyramids, and providing housing and food in return for them building the pyramids?!?!?
You just described slavery. You likened communism and socialism to slavery, which it basically is.
[Edited on 22-10-2003 by stumpy]

The point there was that we can achieve more without money and beaurocracy. I wasn't likening communism to slavery. And when I mentioned the Egyptian workers who were payed with food and accomodation I was talking about the skilled stone masons, not the slaves.

Whoever said capitalism is the only system that has worked, I agree. But I really do hate the way it works. Capitalism does exactly what it is designed to do, exploit the masses of poor workers for the benefit of the rich minority.

Communism's problems are to do with human nature, not the philosophy itself. If people weren't so greedy, paranoid and self centred, it could work. Communism failed in Eastern Europe because the rest of the world did everything it could to hinder their progress.

Communism was an experiment, and it's a shame that people in power in capitalist countries did not want to know if it could succeed.

If we practiced pure capitalism without social programs we'd end up where we were before the New Deal and World War II. The wealthy end of the spectrum would be too heavy. We'd have more supply than demand because the majority of folk won't be able to afford goods, services, and their children won't be able to afford education--which would decrease the middle class in the long run--added, the folk that are able to afford goods, services, and education won't need enough to keep the system in balance.

This is not the America of the 50's and 60's. There aren't many high paying factory jobs to support an unskilled worker boom. Access to higher education is fast becoming the only means to increase ones earner status. The rise in education cost puts the poor at an even deeper disadvantage. If you end federal student aid programs and grants to the poor you kill the future middle class. Also, the end to social programs like social security and medicare would force the elderly to depend on their families for support. This would further weaken an already deteriorating family structure. Tell me, how you would fix these problems after ending the programs that keep them in check?

Without federal assistance the economy can't work no matter what system is employed. In capitalism balance is created by the class system--each level is interdependent . The strength is not at the top or in the middle the strength is the system as a whole. Social programs along with regulation created the balance that was needed to keep a healthy middle. Programs like aiding the elderly, supporting first time home buyers, and higher education create stabilization within the system . These programs are just as important to our system as investment (if not more).

Also, my earlier argument stands, without social programs there is no hope. Capitalism alone can never offer the opportunity needed to keep the system afloat, and americans are not dumb--they know when they are being sold snake oil. I don't support socialism, the fact is the smaller the government the better, but there has to be opportunity to achieve, and there has to be fair labor laws and regulation. This is what six depressions taught some us.

It should be a function of the government to make sure that outside factors don't hinder progress and stifle our economy. Promote the general welfare type stuff.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
why did we beat the russians to the moon? why do we have a space shuttle when the russians still dont have one? why have most of our aircraft over come thier disadvantages to the russian ones? WHY DID STALIN STEAL THE PLANS FOR THE B-29? Why did they rely in the Rosenbergs to give them the plans for the Bomb? there will be far fewer scientific advantages under a communist system than a capitalist system! its always been that way. You want to know WHY? the GNP is spent mainly on the military in the communist systems of today. look at china and N. Korea. Science needs money, otherwise your country will be left behind!

Communist nations have to, or had to, spend a lot of money on their military because if they were weak, the Americans would invade and replace the government. If the USA hadn't been so paranoid, and had been willing to let these nations get on with conducting the most important social experiment in history, then communism might have worked more for the betterment of humanity.

Capitalism, and money, do nothing for scientific advancement, besides in some cases upping the stakes in competition. Things simply don't get done, especially large building projects, because of money and corruption.

Look at projects like the Egyptian Pyramids. There was no paperwork involved, the workers were, instead of being paid money, given a home and as much food as they needed in return for their services. One of the greatest achievements of humanity, and none of the beauraucracy we see today in capitalist society.

-

"We will not rest until the last capitalist has been strangled with the guts of the last beauraucrat"

can you answer why then did the commies need to steal stuff from the capitalist if they are so "evil" to them?

Originally posted by banjoechef

Originally posted by KrazyIvan

Originally posted by banjoechef
you think science only progresses because scientists make money? man thats a shallow thought

why did we beat the russians to the moon? why do we have a space shuttle when the russians still dont have one? why have most of our aircraft over come thier disadvantages to the russian ones? WHY DID STALIN STEAL THE PLANS FOR THE B-29? Why did they rely in the Rosenbergs to give them the plans for the Bomb? there will be far fewer scientific advantages under a communist system than a capitalist system! its always been that way. You want to know WHY? the GNP is spent mainly on the military in the communist systems of today. look at china and N. Korea. Science needs money, otherwise your country will be left behind!

you've missed my point, point was they dind't do the research for the money in it so much as making the discovery i'm sure, if i was a scientist i wouldn't be learning all the stuff they need to know just fer the monye there are far easier jobs which make u just as much money, i was just saying that money doesn't drive discovery, man drives discovery, this was to rebute a comment about a stagnent state of development due to communistic practise, not to say that it has been shown in history, because there has been no true communisms with which to show such evidence

man cant discover anything if his stuff isnt state of the art which requires money

"I can't beleive I just read all these posts begging for the downfall of Capitalism when it is THE ONLY system that allows one to rise as HIGH as one is able, allows for the care taking of those who can't "play" and PUNISHES those who are NOT WILLING to get of their lazy asses and DO SOMETHING. "

Say that to my father and mother, who will both soon be losing their jobs because of "their laziness".

If you like to "punish" as you affectionately call it, think about who you are punishing. Yes, some freeloaders are punished... but what about everybody else?

This process of natural selection mimics Hitler's ideals of evolutionary supremacy. Only the strong survive in a Capitalist society. Or should I say... the ones that kiss the most butt and trample without remorse. Your outdated and evil method of financial natural selection affects children as well as the disabled. You are punishing young children and hard working people while you live in your comfortable nest and rant about your ideal system and the glorious rights of the individual which don't even exist anymore.

You can take your glorious ideals of Capitalism and wipe your ass with them.

[Edited on 23-10-2003 by PolskieWojsko]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
LOL!
*Wipes away tears of laughter*
Yeah, communism has been so good to the world! HAHAHAH!
*Picks self back up from floor to chair*
The first bunch to the New Continent almost starved because their first idea was communism, too!
HARDEEHARHAR!

If you don't have the testicles to be all you can be in this world, smoke a revolver; don't try and stick your filthy paws in what my family earns!
Being pro-commy means either
A) I have visions of belonging to the ruling elite
or
B) I am a lazy bum and want to eat from someone else's harvest!

Shut the heck up and go to work.

i think its B in Strigoi's case

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
i agree. go bitch to kimmy or stalin! somebody who gives a flying #. do you commies know that you will never win an election of any sort? you are just wasting your breath.

We don't need to win an election. Up the revolution!

and i suppose your lazy commie brothern are up to it?

Ah, if there is one good thing about commie-capitalist arguments, it's that you get to see the way these people really feel.

Capitalism was invented by the higer classes, for the higher classes. OF course, any arguments pertaining to the fact that capitalism is bad are met witht he cliche'd "YOU lazy hippy scums just want my daddys money! Get a job cut your hair and remember Stalin and China!!"

The ruling classes have always had the military, the power, the money. Seeing as how our world revolves around them, it is up to them what system we use. And they are rich selfish bigots and fat cats, so naturally they choos capitalism. They don't want the "street scum" being equal with them! What would that make them? Common! How absurd, a common man running the country. No, far better to keep the large slice of scum on it's knees while the upper class rolls in it's (our) money and tells us, much like squealer in Animal Farm, that "Don't worry, everyting is okay! We have to have more than you, we are much more busy and important!!".

And thats why Communism doesn't work, aside from the manic dictators. To the rich man, there is no such thing as sharing or equal work or equal anything, it's either "We get" or "They take", thats all they see.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
can you answer why then did the commies need to steal stuff from the capitalist if they are so "evil" to them?

Because according to communist philosophy inventions which benefit mankind are property of the state and the people, not a corporation. So they reverse engineered things like the B-29 because it made the Soviets stronger. Don't you think we could get further by sharing ideas instead of keeping everything secret?