Will mainstream America ever awaken?

Things keep going from bad to worst in the world and the USA most of all. We have gone from being a very free country, to something that is teatering into a pre-police state. Every law is in place. The proper supreme court Judges. The corporate control of our government. All the different police agencies and secret police. Its ripe for something big, I am not exactly sure as to what.

With all our jobs bleeding overseas, the price of gas, our economy on the verge of tanking how long until the mainstream public does something to help change it?

Just some ramblings please ad yours to the mix!

Your life is a reflection of your perspective on it. if you go around seeing things as being terrible then they inherently will be.

You asked that my ramblings be added, there they are.

Love and light,

Wupy

We all feel the same. Humanity cannot wise up.

[edit on 7-11-2005 by dgtempe]

Originally posted by mrwupy
Your life is a reflection of your perspective on it. if you go around seeing things as being terrible then they inherently will be.

You asked that my ramblings be added, there they are.

Love and light,

Wupy

I dont go around seeing things as terrible, quite to the contrary. I like to see the positive in everything, but when my brother-in-law tells me I am nuts because I cherish freedom and states that he quote " I just want to be safe, the government can do whatever it needs to do, I dont have anything to hide"

I can clearly see that the people are not the same as they used to be. They are all either brainwashed or apethetic.

Blessed Be,

LGM

i love that u used "pre-police" state......it is a police state... a police country for that matter. when will the mainstream catch on?????? when the ultra rich start getting 15 years for possession...or other petty non-violent crimes. when the mainstream...rich,upper middle class catch on that the reason we aren't building new universitites is because we are building more prisons.




"Why don't presidents fight the wars...why do we always send the poor?"

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
We have gone from being a very free country, to something that is teatering into a pre-police state. Every law is in place.

You know I dont really see the this pre-police state.Not when I can still go out and legally buy this in the good old US of A

LINK

Good luck getting one of those or any gun for that matter in alot of the so called "free" countries. With Some 300 million guns and 90-100 million gun owners in the US any future Police state would be in for one heck of a wake up.

The real threat of a police state is in those countries where they have disarmed their own public.

Is there public apathy in this country? Yes, it's nothing new it's been there for a long time and it always will.

Police state? That's a stretch. Look at some definitions and examples of police states. The US is a far cry from it. We can do what we want, go where we want, worships as we please and say just about anything no matter how disrespectful or bizarre our thinking gets without repercussion (short of threatening or harming others).

I almost think we look like ridiculous whiners to even try to complain about a lack of freedom in the US if it were to be heard by anyone who lives or has lived in a true police state.

Not a police state. Preparing for the day when they will have to protect the fat cats and their ilks from a mob of discontent. Sort of like what is happening in Paris, as we speak. Life is so beautiful.

Like all nations in the world, the American government is in theory is answerable to the electorate, but in practice represents a much more specific group (Marx would argue it is a bourgeouis capitalist state protecting the interests of bourgeouis capitalists).

I would argue that America has never been a 'very' free country. I've mentioned elsewhere about Hobbessian theory of freedom and authority and this has never been more apparent than at the moment, especially in terms of the threat of terrorism. The argument (whether one chooses to believe it or not) is that increased security measures and restrictions of dangerous minorities, protect the freedom of society as a whole. However, how far down the road of authoritarianism the state goes is the key. The US has tended towards authoritarianism even befoer 9/11 (ie. death penalty in many states, enforced conscription for Vietnam)

Even when one puts aside the Hobbessian argument, historically America has not been a truly 'free' country, despite the constitution suggesting otherwise. For instance, slaves in the 19th century were not free, while the US during Jim Crow was a nation ridden by institutionalised racism.

However, the last 30 years or so cannot be discuonted. Recent history has seen increased freedom and liberties for minority groups, women etc. Moreover, this has run parallel with greater freedom to travel around the world (ie. cheap air travel), to buy consumer goods, as well as access information and to express one's opinion (ie. through the internet). Often these freedoms may come at a cost (either to the environment or to the freedoms of other people - such as exploited workers in the 3rd world) but American freedoms have improved considerably.

Personally, I think the biggest inhibitor to freedom is money. If you are wealthy you have much more freedom than the poor - wealth gains access to economic power and independence.

We are not heading towards a police state though. This is not to say that we shouldn't be concerned with legislation like the Patriot Act and the UK's forthcoming Terrorism Act (both are repulsive) because one has to resist government's recent drift towards authoritarianism. One always has to question why the state is acting in the way it is and whether losing one's liberties is justified in the scheme of the greater picture. Sometimes it is. Often it is not.

Finally, I'm not so sure that people are as apathetic as you suggest. Since 9/11 people have taken a massive interest in political affairs - not just in terms of protesting against government (as in the huge demonstrations against the War in Iraq around the globe) but also in terms of supporting government. Moreover, there is a huge groundswell of discontent towards President Bush. This is not apathy.

Even so, if a finger of apathy can be directed anywhere, it can be at the ballot box. The 2004 federal election saw only 55% turnout - a larger number than in 2000 but are still low. Statistically, minority groups, the poor and the uneducated are the least likely to vote. Both main parties are centred around the interests of the middle classes. Are these people apathetic or is it that the political system is not concerned with them?

To think we are not headed for a police state is just wishful thinking. You first need to have all the decks stacked before you play your hand. I feel this is what the government and the elite have been doing for quite some time, its just accelerating as of late.

However, the last 30 years or so cannot be discuonted. Recent history has seen increased freedom and liberties for minority groups, women etc. Moreover, this has run parallel with greater freedom to travel around the world (ie. cheap air travel), to buy consumer goods, as well as access information and to express one's opinion (ie. through the internet). Often these freedoms may come at a cost (either to the environment or to the freedoms of other people - such as exploited workers in the 3rd world) but American freedoms have improved considerably.

I dont see how our freedoms have improved considerably, maybe some of the worst conditions have been improved but as a whole the nation has become more oppressed. Look at America in the 1800's. You could go to the pharmacy, general store, and purchase anything. Any drug, any weapon, any tool you needed, it was your discretion as to how it would be used. You abuse the tool you purchased, and harm another soul, you went to jail/prison.

Now you cannot purchase most drugs period, and a good share of the rest are prescription. Try and purchase dynomite, cannibis or coc aine. All these things that are against the law, all the things that you have to pay the government to get a lisense for is eroding our freedom to nothing. We now have the biggest prison population in the world, over 2 million people. Regulations from the government should be to protect the people from corporations, not protect people from themselves. You need laws against tresspass, but nothing else. That is freedom.

Here is a good quote:

"Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall

Here is another good quote:

"Those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid the terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies and pause to America's friends"
-- Former Attorney General, John Ashcroft

We are bieing setup, and the fall will take your breath away. You cant erode to much freedom at once until everything is in place. This takes time and I think they are almost ready. The last two things that will go will be the right to bear arms and freedom of speach. Those two go and people will wake up before its to late.

Did you know that under the terms of the new Patriot Act prosecutors will be able to seek the death penalty in cases where "defendants gave financial support to umbrella organizations without realizing that some of its adherents might eventually commit violence"? (NY Times; editorial 10-30-05) So, if someone unknowingly gave money to a charity that was connected to a terrorist group, he could be executed.

Or, that the Senate Intelligence Committee is fine-tuning the details of a bill that will allow the FBI to secretly procure any of your personal records without "probable cause" or a court order giving them "unchecked authority to pry into personal and business matters"? (New York Times, "Republicans seek to widen FBI Powers, 10-19-05)

We are now in a pre-police state, I dont know how long until its full, but something tells me not too much longer.

Something that occured to me was that if the US was a police state we wouldnt even be having this conversation. ATS wouldn't even exist here.

That being said; we are being stripped of our freedoms in the most subtle ways that we don't even notice it. When the www goes down for the US citizens, people will begin to awaken but they might as well go back to sleep because wer'e toast and the "evil ones" are reaping the harvest of their dark plans.

Hey Shadow, all the evil ones have to do to get ALL the guns is to control food distrubition and trade food for guns. Easy!

It's a brave new world, welcome to the monkey house!!

Originally posted by whaaa

Hey Shadow, all the evil ones have to do to get ALL the guns is to control food distrubition and trade food for guns. Easy!

I agree there is ways for the Goverment to collect the vast majority of legal guns. Western countries have done this in less drastic ways, Our friends down under know this for example.

If this starts to happen in the US Its time to get very worried IMHO Its a vital step for any future Police state.

I just think that this doesn't seem to be the America I grew up in.

I was born in 1973, though, so there might have been stuff going on behind the scenes that a child wouldn't have been aware of. Tricky Dick resigned when I was a toddler of about 18 months.

Maybe my statement should be more like, I'm more aware of what's going on--and I don't like it.

I agree that we are a nation with apathy, I also grew up in a time closes to post war Vietnam and protest and freedom of speech was wide spread and people were more vocal when it came to our government and the dissatisfaction of the people.

Occurs I was to young to even do anything even when my parents used to participate.

Now everything is such hush hush . . . is like people is afraid to talk to much because they think that their jobs and comfortable life will be taken over by the "Evil government".

Excuse me but we are the people and we are the ones in charge, or that is what we think, right?

Apathy is the right choice of term, Thanks for that one Relentless you nail it to the spot.

Originally posted by Amethyst
I just think that this doesn't seem to be the America I grew up in.
~snip~
Maybe my statement should be more like, I'm more aware of what's going on--and I don't like it.

I totally agree I was born in 1962 and I feel just like you do. This is not the America I grew up in, and grew to love

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I dont see how our freedoms have improved considerably, maybe some of the worst conditions have been improved but as a whole the nation has become more oppressed. Look at America in the 1800's. You could go to the pharmacy, general store, and purchase anything. Any drug, any weapon, any tool you needed, it was your discretion as to how it would be used. You abuse the tool you purchased, and harm another soul, you went to jail/prison.

Now you cannot purchase most drugs period, and a good share of the rest are prescription. Try and purchase dynomite, cannibis or coc aine. All these things that are against the law, all the things that you have to pay the government to get a lisense for is eroding our freedom to nothing. We now have the biggest prison population in the world, over 2 million people. Regulations from the government should be to protect the people from corporations, not protect people from themselves. You need laws against tresspass, but nothing else. That is freedom.

Actually it is fairly easy to get hold of most illegal drugs in the modern world. There is a demand for them and therefore a supply. However that is another matter.

I'm not a libertarian. Left to their own devices, people will be cruel, discriminatory, selfish and probably violent. While the majority of people will probably be responsible, there will always be a minority who will not and it is these people who will endanger the stability of society as a whole.

Personally, I'm glad that I live in a country where it is nigh on impossible to own a gun. Maybe the decriminalisation of drugs would be advantagous as it would mean fewer crimes and better treatment of addicts but it would not solve all problems.

In any case, in America in the 1800s you could buy a gun, drugs etc but you could also buy a slave. Just as there are market failures in laissez faire economics, so it is that there are political and social failures when people are left to their own devices. You do need a state to regulate how people live their lives. This does NOT mean the state is always correct (in fact every governing body gets things wrong all the time) but in general, authority is a stabilising force and helps to make a society safer and 'freer'.

Although government introduced a number of laws that have persecuted groups it has also introduced laws that have made these groups 'free' again. Legislation tends to ebb and flow because the authoritarian and the libertarian over the long term.

"Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall

Actually I disagree with Goering there. There is plenty of historical evidence that suggests that ordinary Germans did not believe the Nazis, nor did they do their bidding willingly. For all their propaganda, most Germans loathed the Nazi Party. However, they went along with the Nazis because they were scared. However, there are many ways that people rebelled in terms of passive resistance if not open demonstrations or revolutionary activity.

"Those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid the terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies and pause to America's friends"
-- Former Attorney General, John Ashcroft

I mentioned before that the US Government has utilised a Hobbesian approach to their rhetoric. However, this does not mean that people are buying it. There is considerable resistance to Bush et al in the US at present. People are surprisingly resiliant and difficult to brainwash. Some certainly toe the party line but many do not.

We are bieing setup, and the fall will take your breath away. You cant erode to much freedom at once until everything is in place. This takes time and I think they are almost ready. The last two things that will go will be the right to bear arms and freedom of speach. Those two go and people will wake up before its to late.

One could argue that there is no need for a police state. What purpose does it serve? It would be far far better to give people the illusion of freedom in a world that is not free, then destroy this illusion by introducing totalitarianism. One could certainly argue that consumerism and entertainment are the biggest distractions of the modern day: they give the public the illusion of freedom while actually those freedoms are lies. Moreover, the right to bear arms and free speech are also lies - again why curb these when removing them would only cause violence and rebellion?

Did you know that under the terms of the new Patriot Act prosecutors will be able to seek the death penalty in cases where "defendants gave financial support to umbrella organizations without realizing that some of its adherents might eventually commit violence"? (NY Times; editorial 10-30-05) So, if someone unknowingly gave money to a charity that was connected to a terrorist group, he could be executed.

Or, that the Senate Intelligence Committee is fine-tuning the details of a bill that will allow the FBI to secretly procure any of your personal records without "probable cause" or a court order giving them "unchecked authority to pry into personal and business matters"? (New York Times, "Republicans seek to widen FBI Powers, 10-19-05)

Yes. I'm not disputing that the Bush administration has broken many human rights and has taken the US down a very distrubing path. However, this is not to say that a police state is inevitable. Indeed, US governments have been contravening human rights for years now - not just internally but also externally (Incidently this is not US bashing, the UK has a similarly appalling record - just look at Northern Ireland in the 1970s).

Certainly, one could argue that the US took the moral high ground in the Cold War by claiming to be a democracy when in actual effect it has never been the land of milk and honey that it has proported to be. The US Government has been a country that has never been shy to be authoritarian when needed (eg. the Allende assassination in 1973 or the responses to the 1968 student riots). Perhaps the difference now is that the US government is more blatent with its infringements of human rights.

However, ott responses to terror threats are nothing new historically. As mentioned earlier, the UK has had plenty of moments in its history when it introduced radical terror legislation and democracy still continued. Even in the aftermath of WWII (where the UK was arguably an authoritarian regime), things did not just revert back to normal, they swung completely the other way to a progressive, socialist government.

I see mainstream American becoming more apathetic but also most eager to run to the government and the legal profession for answers and assistance.
Used to be, you had a trespasser, you could order them from your property. Now you are encouraged to call the police.

Used to be folks settled theri differences by themselves. It wasn't always right and it wasn't always pretty, but folks did for themselves that way.
Now, you call the police. You call your lawyer. You call your local news station.
But, you let someone else do it.
Political Correctness is the Rule of the day.

We are bombarded with commercials telling us to refinance, alerting us how to buy a diamond so we don't offend our girl or wife, asking us to try this new drug and many other things.
We're not encouraged to figure things our for ourselves. and little by little we lose the edge necessary to even want to try.

We're losing our individuality willingly. So, no we will not awaken.
Or, if we do it may be too late.

Food for guns? unlikely, atleast in suburbs and the rural areas, you can HUNT for food

What i'm afraid of is that the US citizens will move AGAINST the government and NATO will have to intervene and occupy the country until "order" is created.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
Food for guns? unlikely, atleast in suburbs and the rural areas, you can HUNT for food

What i'm afraid of is that the US citizens will move AGAINST the government and NATO will have to intervene and occupy the country until "order" is created.

Do you really think that if the US government (which has the most powerful armed forces in the world) cannot control its population, any other country or organisation could? NATO is based around the might of the US miltary.

If US citizens resisted the government by taking up their arms against the state, it would result in a situation not unlike present day Iraq, with a guerilla war ensuing. As armed as many people are, they are still no match for the overwhelming resources and power of the US military - at least in a conventional sense.

If you really want to start thinking conspiracy, then a police state would emerge only when there is this kind of situation. It is only when the intregrity of the state is questioned through force and society itself breaks down that the extreme authoritarianism of a police state would occur. A heavily armed populace does not guarantee America would be protected from a police state. Instead it actually makes it more likely to happen if tensions and societal anxieties are high enough.

Removing the guns is an easy task.

Look to see how they are doing this in some states and counties around the US. First you ban automatic weapons then you ban the semi atuo weapons. After that you ban clips that can hold more than nine rounds. They are removing the weapons little by little. Think your safe because your weapon is unregistered? not likely your neibor or family that is looking for quick cash or their "fifteen" min of fame will gladly turn you in as a terrorist as they are instructed to do inorder to be a good citizen.

And are we truely free if we have to have some one watching us 24/7? That seems more like some kind of zoo or lab experiment to me. "But it should not bother you if you have nothing to hide" I have nothing to hide but I grew out of needing a baby sitter when I was 10. I follow the laws and live my life I need no one watching me 24/7. Want to spy on ppl and harrass them? Good go bust the drugy living across town or the hooker by the gas station or how bout the guy who is molesting kids infact beat him.

I fully agree with the posters that say this is not the country it used to be.
The war on drugs seemed to only triple if not more the drugs on the streets thus increasing the crime. But yet I have to sign for a pack of cold medicine because they are working hard on making things better. Buying ammo for you gun better watch how much you buy at a time. "Is he just an avid gun collector or is he one of those nut jobs stock piling guns to kill ppl with?" better check him out too he might be a terrorist.

Freedoms? When was the last time you read the patriot act say section 802? You might just be the next terrorist and your neighbor might let them know about it.

Raist