Are Christians Sinners By Their Very Nature?

To be a "Christian" is defined as one who is trying to be like Christ. (WWJD?)

Christ is accepted by many as GOD.

But, to want to be like GOD is a sin, right?

Striving to live your life as Jesus instructed is a sin?

Originally posted by kinglizard
Striving to live your life as Jesus instructed is a sin?

Not what I'm saying.

It was the desire to be like God that earned Lucifer/Satan his reputation ...

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
It was the desire to be like God that earned Lucifer/Satan his reputation ...

That's not how I understand it to be friend.

Isaiah 14:13-14

You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Satan was envious and refused to follow Gods direction. He attempted to overthrow God. He wanted to rise above God to rule in his place. This is why Lucifer was thrown from heaven.

Now...

As a Christian I don't want to overthrow God or take his place. A good Christian (follower of Christ) only wants to live as instructed by Jesus.

I think the problem is that natural human behaviour which has existed much longer than religion is defined as sinful by certain followers of the Christian faith. Therefore, everyone is a "sinner" in someone's eyes.

The apparent contradiction pointed out by Esotric Teacher is irrelevant. Christians do not aim to be like Jesus, but rather - in theory - to live by the principles he taught. And if, as they believe, he was "God's" representative on Earth, would the pursuit of such a lifestlye not be following "God's" will?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
But, to want to be like GOD is a sin, right?

Where does it say this?

There's nothing at all wrong with striving toward godliness--the snare lies in the method with which such a goal is pursued. Two choices: God's way or the highway.

Satan's main crime was rebellion, compounded by pride. He was given a certain charge, over creation, and instead of following God's plan and instructions, he believed he was able to devise a better plan. So the world became void and desolate. Recreated, then came Adam, in charge of the second go-around. Satan then got jealous of Adam's position--after all, Adam was just a man, and not independent in spirit, so to speak.
(envy is the greatest sin we commit toward one another, IMO--pride the biggest against God)

So Satan further transgressed by convincing Adam, through Eve, to commit the same crime he did--going for another plan apart from God's determined outline--which was eating from the tree to achieve godliness.. And finally, along came Yehoshua, obedient to the Father's plan and so purchased the inheritance Satan stole from Adam--even though Satan was not rightful owner, God is righteous in all His dealings with every creature.

See this is where I get lost. If God is creator of all God is satan and sin. I mean if you have duality there will be good and bad and God created that right? Also what is Satan a person that once lived on earth? How did he get God like powers? Can anyone do this? If I am on earth and turn to black magic and satan worship than can I have super human powers? Or in Heaven? Or is satan just a term for evil?

Also with Christ there has to be an Anti Christ but how? Can any of us become the Anti Christ? If so would one have to bring out the anti christ to be able to bring Christ back? I mean it just seems to be a void? When I did all those calulations 666=999 or numeric value WSM I mean turn it flip whatever it is a void. See what I am trying to get at? Maybe I read things to literal maybe not. Would love to hear some feedback...still learning folks be patient with me

Jesus Christ said......... ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy!’ (1 Peter 1:16).
” And so, in order to encourage us to imitate Him by our deeds, the Compassionate One (Christ) says: “Leave off from evil deeds and practice all good deeds; pursue every virtue and become holy as far as it is attainable, if you really want to have fellowship with Me. For I am holy…”

Man was made with free will..........it was not in mans nature to sin(actually means,to miss the target/mark)
When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge ......their NATURE toward their surroundings changed......they became like God....they knew GOOD and BAD........
By the fall into sin, men destroyed their internal harmony — the unity of spirit, soul and body — they upset their nature.......
So in order for man to perfect himself again and join himself with God , man needed someone to destroy DEATH which also was the result of Adams fall.........ONLY GOD COULD REDEEM MAN.......God took flesh and became man.......God became a Servant of man to show man how much he loved man.....
Crucifiction......Ultimate DEATH sentence........sacrificial lamb.....Christ became that.

Babtism ........to be Born-again.......FLOOD, washed away the sin of the world(the ark was the church, and those inside the ark were saved)
Jesus Christ took on Himself the SIN of the world......BABTISM in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit/Body and blood of Christ....sacrements placed by Jesus Christ Himself......
Man is not perfect, and God knows this, and so we have confession ......
eg/When one is sick, one goes to the doctor and gets medicine to get better.....medicine for the BODY.....
Confession is good for the SOUL...

According to the Holy Apostle Paul, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature [2 COT. 5:17) and thus the regeneration of man\'s personality begins with the Sacrament of Baptism.
As Scripture says, as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal. 3:27) and these words show that in Baptism the believer is united with Christ, a member of Christ\'s Church and through the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist becomes a partaker of the Divine Nature in spirit and body. In Baptism a \"new element - a supernatural one which remains hidden and acts secretly\" is poured in and the newly-illumined receives a new name. Through this essential change in his human nature, he turns into a new creature.
This essential change in man\'s nature takes place through the free and moral participation of man himself and only on this condition is sin abolished in man in the Sacrament of Baptism.

www.orthodoxy.org.au...

Sin literally means to "miss the mark."
As St. Paul writes, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
We sin when we pervert what God has given us as good, falling short of His purposes for us.
Our sins separate us from God (Isaiah 59:1, 2), leaving us spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1).
To save us, the Son of God assumed our humanity, and being without sin "He condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3).
In His mercy, God forgives our sins when we confess them and turn from them, giving us strength to overcome sin in our lives.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9).

www.fatheralexander.org...

As queen annie said....Satan's main crime was rebellion, compounded by pride.

7. Discussion of the Fall into Sin.


IX
helen

Originally posted by japike
See this is where I get lost. If God is creator of all God is satan and sin.

'Sin' is not the opposite of 'good' (as in 'good and bad'). Sin is transgression--basically going against the intended order of things. 'Satan' is not sin--because even in his rebellion and iniquity he is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing. Satan actually means 'accuser.' He is the 'adversary.' What this means is that he provides the counterpoint to the white/light/positive/good side of duality.

God did create both good and evil, and that is actually written in Isaiah 45:7.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The next few verses are relevant to this matter, too:

Isaiah 45:9-10
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

What 'sin' is, is to question or fight against what God wills for us--whether we perceive the events in our life as 'good' or 'evil'--the bottom line is that whatever God does is ultimately for our good and nothing else. In the NT, Christ says 'only God is good.' How can God be good if He created evil?

God's 'evil' is done for ends that are beneficial--man's 'evil' is done out of a self-serving intent (albeit not knowingly, but still the root cause is the selfishness). So even God's 'evil' is 'good' and man's greatest 'good' (if done for his own reasons) is 'evil.' That's where the 'sin' part comes in--doing what we think is best is never objective or truly for the good of the whole human race. We may be thoroughly convinced that we are doing good, but we have a significant blind spot that is inherent to our nature.

I mean if you have duality there will be good and bad and God created that right?

The duality arose from there being spiritual existence and material existence, separate from one another (God=spirit, man=matter). And all the rest of creation followed--duality is necessary for balance--and reflection is necessary for consciousness. But the duality that humanity is fixated on, that of 'good' and 'bad' in the way that we relate these things to what is--that duality is not true, it is based upon our perspective. And that is also what keeps us on this side of death's doorway, thinking that this life is the only life. To overcome duality is to overcome the limited reality of our mortality. Christ was a man fully alive with God's whole Spirit--and so the original duality was reconciled in Him--and that is the nature of following Him in being 'overcomers.'

Also what is Satan a person that once lived on earth?

I wouldn't say 'person,' exactly--and the name Satan is really just a word for 'accuser.' The angels who were in the rebellion all had names, and they must still live here on Earth, in some unseen form--there is nowhere else they can be.

How did he get God like powers? Can anyone do this?

IMO, those 'powers' are what is rightly called 'free will.' He was given 'free will' without the learning necessary for responsibly exercising that will--to serve as an example for us--while we undergo intensive training in the present time in order to thoroughly equip and prepare us for being able to handle the power of free will. Many say we have 'free will' right now--I think it is more correctly something best described as 'the ability to choose.' To 'will' is to cause to be--to create. To choose is just to decide.

If I am on earth and turn to black magic and satan worship than can I have super human powers? Or in Heaven? Or is satan just a term for evil?

I truly think that the only way to legitimately obtain 'super-human powers' is through God--and obeying Him instead of ourselves or each other. The dark type of powers, some might call 'demonic' but I think of them as 'sorcery'--these are just parlor tricks, kind of like a magician's routine--and while they may seem impressive I believe they are empty and ultimately destructive to the soul who seeks to weild them.

Also with Christ there has to be an Anti Christ but how?

Simply by being an opposition to all that Christ represents--which is love, justice (righteousness), and unity. When you get right down to it--the whole world is 'anti-christ' just by default.

Can any of us become the Anti Christ?

I think we were all born as such--it is the ultimate realization of this that starts to bring us toward God.

If so would one have to bring out the anti christ to be able to bring Christ back?

Christ never completely departed--and although He is hidden in some people, He is here among us in our present times.

I mean it just seems to be a void? When I did all those calulations 666=999 or numeric value WSM I mean turn it flip whatever it is a void.

A void like an 'emptiness?' Like breaking even yet without any baggage, so to speak? That is freedom and balance. It is a good thing to not be weighed down--the void feels strange because we are so dense in our vibrations and that makes us heavy--and keeps true peace from inhabiting our minds.

See what I am trying to get at? Maybe I read things to literal maybe not. Would love to hear some feedback...still learning folks be patient with me

Literal is an odd concept--I take things very literal--because they are very real. Yet that reality is of such an ethereal quality that it is hard to pin down. And it's all so real....

Numbers:

1 = unity
2 = duality, division
3 = seed, loving-kindness
4 = creation
5 = grace
6 = redemption, death (necessary for life)
7 = divine perfection
8 = regeneration, new life
9 = judgment
10 = crown

When you get right down to it--the whole world is 'anti-christ' just by default.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

So, Jesus was saying that everyone who is against Him could be “anti-christs.”

Maybe I read things to literal maybe not. Would love to hear some feedback...still learning folks be patient with me

Japike~ What kind of things are you reading? I am a very patient person, don’t worry!

Numbers:
1 = unity
2 = duality, division
3 = seed, loving-kindness
4 = creation
5 = grace
6 = redemption, death (necessary for life)
7 = divine perfection
8 = regeneration, new life
9 = judgment
10 = crown

Queen Annie~ where did you get that number system from?

Originally posted by just me 2
Jesus said in Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

So, Jesus was saying that everyone who is against Him could be “anti-christs.”

That's right. And against what He represents. Which is truth, love, and true liberation.

Queen Annie~ where did you get that number system from?

The bible. Studying Hebrew. Insight. Revelation.

And testing, testing, and still more testing.

(quoting myself)

Queen Annie~ where did you get that number system from?

The bible. Studying Hebrew. Insight. Revelation.

Interesting! By "Revelation" do you mean the last Book in the Bible, or by divine revelation?

Can you give me Scriptures to back up your findings?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
But, to want to be like GOD is a sin, right?

Where does it say this?

4th Post by Kinglizard:
"I will make myself like the most high"

''I will make myself the most high''

Lucifer was saying that he wanted to be GOD.......not God-like...WE are ALL called to be God-like.
We are called Children of God.
in the Psalm [Ps. 82:6 KJV/81:6 Septuagint], the Prophet David has God say about people: "I have said, ye are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High."
Man was created a little lower then the Angels....
QUOTE///
the king and prophet David had exclaimed in bewilderment [in Psalm 8: 4-5]: "O Lord, what is man, that Thou art mindful of him? And the Son of man, that Thou visitest him?
For Thou madest him a little lower than the Angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor."
We have even more cause to fall in fear and reverence before the Lord and cry out: "Lord, what is man, that Thou didst not disdain a virgin womb, that Thou didst hide Thy Divinity and didst deign to become a man?"
What is man after all?
The Word of God says: man is God's finest creation.

The Angels were created by God........and served God......Man chose to break that one LAW of God.....eat of the tree, and nature changed to what was first created and intended for......
The Lord took pity on His creation, and came down to earth, in order to save the sheep that had been lost to predators.
He came down to earth in order to raise us up to Heaven once again. He took on the form of a man, took upon Himself the sins of all mankind, "God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son."

Jesus Christ opened the closed gates of paradise.
He rebuilt the spiritual ladder by which man may ascend to Heaven.
In taking on human flesh, the Lord raised man above the ranks of Angels, and robed him in glory greater than that of Adam in Paradise before the Fall.

"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" (Ps. 104:4). These are the words of the King and Prophet David.
With these words, he said that God created the wisest minds, the fleshless spirits, servants loyal to Him, who burn with eternal love for God, fulfill God's will and abide in the unapproachable light of the Throne of Glory.
The Lord created the angels as wise, powerful, eternally holy, purity and within Divine truth.
Ponder this, dear brothers and sisters, delve into this with your minds. The Lord divided all the angels into nine orders, or ranks: the thrones, the dominions, principalities, powers, authorities and others; they all obey each other—the lower orders obey the higher orders.
In the likeness of the heavenly hierarchy, the Lord established three ranks in the Church Militant: the bishops, priests and deacons, who also obey each other.

"As One Cannot Count the Stars in the Heavens, So Can One Not Count the Holy Angels." (Sermon on the Synaxis of Archangel Michael)
MORE HERE

"When the stars were created, all My angels sang praises to Me" (Job 38:7).

The world of the angels is represented in the Sacred Scriptures as being extraordinarily vast. When the prophet Daniel saw God the Father in the form of the "Ancient of Days," he also saw that "A thousand thousands ministered to Him; and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him" (Daniel 7:10). During the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem "a multitude of the heavenly host" extolled His coming to earth (Luke 2:13).

Two Worlds —Physical and Spiritual~

In view of such a multitude of angels, it is natural to suppose that in the world of angels, just as in the material world, there are various degrees of perfection and, therefore, various stages or hierarchical degrees of the heavenly powers. Thus, the word of God calls some Angels and some Archangels (1 Thess. 4:16; Jude verse 9).

The Orthodox Church, guided by the views of the ancient writers of the Church and Church Fathers, divides the world of the angels into nine choirs or ranks, and these nine into three hierarchies, each hierarchy having three ranks.
The first hierarchy consists of those spirits who are closest to God, namely, the Thrones, Cherubim and Seraphim.
Within the second, the middle hierarchy, are the Authorities, Dominions and Powers. In the third, which is closer to us, are the Angels, Archangels and Principalities.
Thus, the existence of the Angels and Archangels is witnessed by almost every page in the Holy Scriptures. The books of the prophets mention the Cherubim and Seraphim. Cherubim means to be near; hence it means the near ones; Seraphim means fiery, or filled with fire.
The names of the other angelic ranks are mentioned by the Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians, saying that Christ is in the heavens "far above any Principality, and Authority, and Power, and Dominion" (Ephesians 1:21).

So, is Man a sinner by their FIRST creation....???
NO.
Man was created with FREE WILL.....man has a choice to do good or evil.....
DEATH....came after the FALL....
Death was destroyed by God taking FLESH and becoming a SERVANT of MAN....to save us...
QUOTE///
If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins (1 Cor. 15:14, 17).

But Christ is risen; He rose the First among the sons of earth, and thus manifested His Might and His Divine Power. Through our forefathers disobedience to God, sin took possession of human nature, and brought decay and death in its wake.
But Christ abolished original sin and cleansed the fallen Adam (Eph, 1:7). With His divine blood He raises man into a new creation (1 Cur. 15.13-26).

The Old Testament CURSE was broken....DEATH was destroyed.

IX
helen

Originally posted by helen670
''I will make myself the most high''

Lucifer was saying that he wanted to be GOD.......not God-like...WE are ALL called to be God-like.

Lucifer is another name for the morning star, or Son of God.

Christ referred to himself as the morning star multiple times in the New Testament.

Originally posted by just me 2
Interesting! By "Revelation" do you mean the last Book in the Bible, or by divine revelation?

Well...both. Wouldn't any revelation be divine in nature, if the revelator put trust in God? The way I consider it, just as an aside, is that our own thoughts evolve as 'ideas,' and God's thoughts evolve as 'revelation.'

Can you give me Scriptures to back up your findings?

Truthfully, I can't be any more specific than just saying Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21. OVer and over and over....

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by just me 2
Interesting! By "Revelation" do you mean the last Book in the Bible, or by divine revelation?

Well...both. Wouldn't any revelation be divine in nature, if the revelator put trust in God? The way I consider it, just as an aside, is that our own thoughts evolve as 'ideas,' and God's thoughts evolve as 'revelation.'

Can you give me Scriptures to back up your findings?

Truthfully, I can't be any more specific than just saying Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21. OVer and over and over....

Profound.
I believe one way of equating what queenannie38 is saying:
It is only your perception that there is a wall in this scenario:":bnghd:"

In the story of Eden with Adam and Eve, Satan tempted them with the idea that they couold be "as" God. Not so much godlike but god's themselves.

I think that the the greatest sin in Eden was that Adam and Eve were not satisfied with who they were. They were created by God and were fine in and of themselves. As a therapist I see so many people who do not accept themselves and try to be something that they are not. So much time and energy wasted on trying to "do" something rather than "be."

In our cultures we are becoming "human doings" rather than "human being."

So they are not satisfied with who they are. They try to become something that they are not and subsequently become something less.

That's my theory at least.

So to be Christ like is not trying to be God but rather live the principles that Christ has presented to us.


Take it easy

Originally posted by Egg Mundane


In the story of Eden with Adam and Eve, Satan tempted them with the idea that they couold be "as" God. Not so much godlike but god's themselves.

I think that the the greatest sin in Eden was that Adam and Eve were not satisfied with who they were. They were created by God and were fine in and of themselves.

How very humane of you to point that out. The same is true for all of us--even if we consider ourselves 'imperfect' and in need of improvements--if we believe in a Creator, we should understand that He created us just like we are.

As a therapist I see so many people who do not accept themselves and try to be something that they are not. So much time and energy wasted on trying to "do" something rather than "be."

'Room to grow' is not imperfection, perhaps, but more like the promise given by undeniable potential. We deny ourselves that potential by trying to be something we are not, immediately--by avoiding the mirror and sweeping our foibles under the rug.

In our cultures we are becoming "human doings" rather than "human being."

And what doings, too!

So they are not satisfied with who they are. They try to become something that they are not and subsequently become something less.

And instead of growing, comparison is the means to expansion--and in comparing ourselves with others we can never win. Either we fool ourselves and so cheat ourselves out of the opportunity to evolve emotionally and spiritually; or we fool ourselves and cheat ourselves out of the opportunity to love others in the 'raw' form of both the wonderful parts as well as the not-so-wonderful parts.

Until we learn to love and accept ourselves 'as is,' we cannot possibly learn what it means to truly 'love our neighbor.' Personally, I feel that a great deal of the ideas of unconditional love, mercy, and forgiveness that is presented in Scripture as being God's nature--that's not for us, from Him, for the purpose of 'going to heaven;' but rather it is for us, from Him, for ourselves and for others. We must apply these principles toward each other and ourselves, for that is the only way to true inner peace--the kind that 'passeth all understanding.'

That's my theory at least.

I'm pretty much with you.

So to be Christ like is not trying to be God but rather live the principles that Christ has presented to us.

I think so--we make God out to be a control freak--perhaps so we have a viable reason to become one ourselves (another common way of 'sweeping' under the rug). Instead, Christ presented to us an example that we all can follow--with abilities we have truly been born with--it is not domination that is our goal, but UNITY.