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Muslims detained after prayers at Giants Stadium.

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posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 07:11 AM
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First off let's start with helen670's post.


Originally posted by helen670
helen670
Islam says that it is okay to defend your country....

Chrsitianity is against all violence.......Jesus Christ taught this.......whether Christians do this or not is not Christian Teaching.....God will judge!

Maybe they wanted to watch the game first and who knows what?

Im not judging!


Yes. Very true there. Islam says that it is acceptable to defend your country if its peace and stability is endangered. So you're telling me you don't glorify your war dead(s)? Even in any war that you see, the "viva la resistance" guys or the good ones who are defending their countries are glorify and honoured. Same goes in Islam.

Moreover, the terrorist would have been more objective. They'd kill as soon as they're in place. Wasting time by watching the game only arouses suspicion as what happened in this case.


Originally posted by helen670
eg///Turkey........where is the freedom of Religion there?
Pay high TAX in order to be there........this has been going on for many years without people fully realising Christians tolerance.

Same goes with a Christian country......eg/In Jerusalem in the Holy Sepulcher, women must wear proper length dress and not appear like she is at the beach or a party.........this is fair enough .


Everybody can agree that these statements are biased. I ask you where is the freedom of Religion in other countries where Mormons, Jehovah Witness or whatever is being banned? So move some place where it's legal then. If you're really a true believer of your faith, you will go to any lengths to be able to practise it. It's call adapting.



Originally posted by helen670
The spread of Islam is by the sword........the spread of Christianity is Love......


You make that sound so hippy. "Islam is by the sword" and "Christianity is by love". Wrong. Both religion is spread by both sword AND love and you have history to prove it.


[Originally posted by helen670
by the way, my neighbours are muslim.....they are very nice and condemn hatred as I do.....
You HATE THE SIN and not the SINNER.......


Very contradicting. I thought you're against Muslims. Just goes to show you're just flexing your muscles here.



Originally posted by helen670

It's not in the 'knee bending'!

Muslim prayer is fully flat out to the ground............


Wrong. Full flat? What are they? Dugongs? Go somewhere near a mosque and view the Muslims praying. There is "knee bending". Didn't I told you to research my friend?




posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Heartagram, you might not want to go down the path of the Crusades as some of us know more the revised history, and we know that the Crusades were a result of Islamic aggression. No need in trying to redirect this thread, is there? You might also want to explain what type of long distance litmus test can be used to tell the "real" Muslims from all these fakes and frauds who have been killing westerners by the bushelfull for decades, now. "Allah Akbar" seems to be their favorite last words.


Firstly, are you part of the Crusades during that time? If no, then don't bother telling me that you know more than (written)history. Eventhough history in itself may not be accurate. Yes, Islamic aggression and from then it moves into the "kill muslim for God" phase right? Same goes in our modern context: Arabs in the Middle East is being oppressed by Israelis and Westerners, they go on a killing rampage to defend their homeland and faith. If you're saying that whatever the Arab did is wrong then you have just contradict yourself.

Nope. There is no litmus paper or chromatography paper for mankind so we can differentiate the good and the bad. So what you expect is that everyone who is a muslim/arab or looks like one should undergo fractional distillation to ensure you can separate the good and bad? Simple. This is pure discrimination.

(I love science.=))


Originally posted by djohnsto77
Are you trying to say Jesus was born and raised a Muslim? How can that be since he was born like over 600 years before Islam started? Jesus was a Jew. Even Mohammad wasn't born and raised a Muslim, he came up with the religion himself.


Half true. Yes, Jesus(Isa) was born Jewish and Muhammad himself isn't born a muslim. The name Islam and titles Muslim/Muslimah didn't become "official" until quite later(after Jesus and during Muhammad's prophet time). Jesus received the Injil(in Islamic context) or you might say bible. Injil which was another variant of "divine knowledge" passed down by Allah (such as Quran), is something each and every Muslim should know and respect. In a way, Injil is part of Islam, it's just that Quran is the refine knowledge in Islam whereas the modern day Bible is allegedly a heavily distorted version of Injil. Hence, you can say that Jesus is muslim during that time eventhough the term muslim is not officially recognised.


Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1
On the other hand, the one who contributes his life to the cause of Allah, Islam and Muslims his doing is sacrificial; he gives his life away for Islam and Muslims, which is the highest sacrifice.

The history of Islam is full of heroic and sacrificial events. It is narrated by Abu Dawood through one of the Prophet's companions, he said: "we mounted an attacked on a part of Hunain, one of us followed an unbeliever to kill him, by a mistake killed himself. The prophet (s.a.w.) said: 'O, Muslims... your brother'. We rushed to check him, but found him dead. The Prophet (s.a.w.) wrapped him with his own clothes and his blood on him, then performed the prayer of the dead, the Prophet's companions asked: is he a martyr? He said: "he is, and I am a witness". Therefore, the one who blows up the enemies of Allah by blowing up himself as well cannot be considered a suicide, and he is, Allah willing, a martyr.


The link you gave me comes from a website that is influenced by Christianity. Hence, the credibility of this souce is down 90%. By the way, the phrase "On the other hand, the one who contributes his life to the cause of Allah, Islam and Muslims his doing is sacrificial; he gives his life away for Islam and Muslims, which is the highest sacrifice" refers to the Muslim who fought against oppression from the enemy and not to oppress the enemy.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 08:08 AM
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Heart/
I never contradicted myself.........I said Hate the SIN AND NOT THE SINNER.

You have it wrong.

Christianity is not spread by the Sword.....never has been.
Jesus Christ said that if you kill by the sword, you die by the sword.
Jesus Christ told his Apostles to preach love and not hatred.....do good to those that do bad to you....love your enemies......forgive as many times needed........and the list goes on!

WHAT MAN DOES..........LET GOD BE THE JUDGE.

Why does Turkey allow Orthodox Christianity to be there?
Because of High taxes...

I dislike Islam, not the people!
Islam is not a loving religion......it's ROOTS are not LOVE....

How did Muhammed spread the KORAN?
with LOVE?

Like I said, HATE the SIN and not the SINNER.....whether one is Christian or Muslim or a Jew or Hindu or whatever else./.......
Let God be the Judge!

And I will say...Glory be to God.
For it is Gods Glory and not mans.

The New Testament to me is based on LOVE....This was taught by Jesus Christ and the life He lead for all mankind, to follow.......

The Early Church Fathers taught LOVE one another........and this can be traced back to Jesus Christ.

What has ISLAM taught?
What exactly did Muhammed teach of his own doings that man can say I follow in the footsteps of Muhammed?

IX
helen



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by helen670

Christianity is not spread by the Sword.....never has been.


I'll add that Christianity also doesn't kill people who choose to no longer be Christians. In Islam the punishment for Apostasy is death, at least in some countries.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 08:49 AM
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Ace of Base///



In Islam the punishment for Apostasy is death, at least in some countries.


Very true!
It happens today!

IX
helen



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase
In Islam the punishment for Apostasy is death, at least in some countries.

Surely this says more about individual countries/societies interpretation of said religion, rather than the religion as a whole.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by helen670
Heart/
I never contradicted myself.........I said Hate the SIN AND NOT THE SINNER.

You have it wrong.


Believe what you want to. You hate something that's neither can be touch nor seen. It's like you hate happiness or sadness. For example, don't tell me if someone is full of happiness you'll still love him and cherish him eventhough you know in your heart happiness is your enemy? Unless of course you're a hypocrite which I'm assuming you're not
.


Originally posted by helen670
Christianity is not spread by the Sword.....never has been.
Jesus Christ said that if you kill by the sword, you die by the sword.
Jesus Christ told his Apostles to preach love and not hatred.....do good to those that do bad to you....love your enemies......forgive as many times needed........and the list goes on!


I can get you similar qoutes from Muhammad with similar meaning(s) which Jesus has said. Moreover, almost every single religion on earth can/is/was spread by the sword if you check the facts. However, these "martyrs" that did so are not of the religion they are thought to be upholding. For example, the terrorist called Al-Qaeda, they're using Islam as a shield to destroy the West. Another example, fanatics who destroys clinics that allows abortion under the name of Christianity. Is this right I ask you? No. Let's get the facts clear, every single religion has its dark side. Islam and Christianity included. That's one fact nobody can deny as both the Bible and Quran has inserts of violence in it.


Originally posted by helen670
WHAT MAN DOES..........LET GOD BE THE JUDGE.


Yes. You said it yourself here. So I think you're taking back your opinions about such Muslims doing acts of terror? They're man.Furthermore, religion has nothing to do with what they're doing. I guess God decides if they're worthy of paradise. Right?


Originally posted by helen670
Why does Turkey allow Orthodox Christianity to be there?
Because of High taxes...


Lots of countries out there that have such stupid things just to make money. Why single out one?


Originally posted by helen670
I dislike Islam, not the people!
Islam is not a loving religion......it's ROOTS are not LOVE....

How did Muhammed spread the KORAN?
with LOVE?


Without people, there would be no Islam or any other religion for that matter. So your statements about hate for the religion and not the people is totally illogical.

May I add that Muhammad spend most of his preaching peacefully rather than forcing one to convert. He only picks up the sword when oppressed to do so.


Originally posted by helen670
The New Testament to me is based on LOVE....This was taught by Jesus Christ and the life He lead for all mankind, to follow.......

The Early Church Fathers taught LOVE one another........and this can be traced back to Jesus Christ.


I'll say it again if Christianity teaches love then why does people kill and destroy under its name? The answer, if you have figured it out, applies to why you hate Islam in the first place.


Originally posted by helen670
What has ISLAM taught?
What exactly did Muhammed teach of his own doings that man can say I follow in the footsteps of Muhammed?


Many beautiful words of wisdom was preached by Muhammad and so did Jesus. It's just that you chose to see just the beautiful words and not see the ugly side of it.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by KhieuSamphan

Originally posted by AceOfBase
In Islam the punishment for Apostasy is death, at least in some countries.

Surely this says more about individual countries/societies interpretation of said religion, rather than the religion as a whole.


True. As I said it before, the religion that are around nowadays are open to interpretations. For example, in Islam, we have Shi'ites Muslims and other sects(or Mazhabs in Islamic context) and same goes for Christianity--Catholic, Protestant and Anglican. Other than that micro scope, we have another huge grouping and that is moderates/secular ones and the hardline ones. Several democratic countries that have a strong Islamic influence( but not an Islamic Republic) practice the Syaria law but not to the extremes of killing someone for leaving Islam. One example is Malaysia.

Finally, do NOT generalise a religion. It's stereotypical and ignorant.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by KhieuSamphan
Surely this says more about individual countries/societies interpretation of said religion, rather than the religion as a whole.


Apparently the death penalty for Apostasy is a part of both the Sunni and Shiite sect of Islam and is practiced in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. There may be other countries too but I haven't checked them yet.



pakistanchristianpost

Islam is divided into two main sects of Sunni and Shia. Sunnis form the majority in Pakistan and also in Saudi Arabia. They prescribe execution for an apostate from Islam.

Next to Sunnis there are Shias who are mostly in Iran. Shias are about 12 percent in Pakistan. Shias also prescribe execution for their apostates.


Read through that article and then tell me how bad the discrimination is for Muslims in Europe or the US.


[edit on 6-11-2005 by AceOfBase]



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 09:41 AM
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If anything the FBI under reacted they should of pounced them with guns drawn and subjected them to 8 hours of questioning.

Those people would of been only too aware of the fear they could cause by acting suspiciosly near an air duct.

Reminds me of an article i was reading recently where 2 punks of arab appearance thought it was a funny thing to make continual trips to the bathroom and whisper to each other on a flight, the poster was actually skiting at how nervous people looked around them.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by KhieuSamphan
Surely this says more about individual countries/societies interpretation of said religion, rather than the religion as a whole.


Apparently the death penalty for Apostasy is a part of both the Sunni and Shiite sect of Islam and is practiced in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. There may be other countries too but I haven't checked them yet.



pakistanchristianpost

Islam is divided into two main sects of Sunni and Shia. Sunnis form the majority in Pakistan and also in Saudi Arabia. They prescribe execution for an apostate from Islam.

Next to Sunnis there are Shias who are mostly in Iran. Shias are about 12 percent in Pakistan. Shias also prescribe execution for their apostates.


Read through that article and then tell me how bad the discrimination is for Muslims in Europe or the US.


[edit on 6-11-2005 by AceOfBase]

With all due respect, I simply do not believe that the claims made within this article are applicable to all adherents of the Islamic faith. Nor do I believe that execution for apostasy is a central tenet of the Islamic faith. Just because this article says it is true, that does not neccesarily mean it is true.I stand by my belief that it is the interpretation that is incorrect.

This reminds me of a converstaion I had with my boss several months ago whereby he asserted that those individuals that did not believe in the literal story of the 'True Cross' could not be accepted into heaven. Would you say that this notion is central to Christian teaching?



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 10:01 AM
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hey again!

Jesus Christ did not FIGHT BACK........He said ''My Kingdom is not of this world''
for this He came , to be crucified.

A TRUE CHRISTIAN will not fight back with hatred or any agression.
A priest is not allowed to have blood on his hands.......even when someone is trying to kill him.




May I add that Muhammad spend most of his preaching peacefully rather than forcing one to convert. He only picks up the sword when oppressed to do so.



You say Muhammed picked up his sword when needed!
Well, Jesus Christ did nothing of the sort.
You cannot return Hatred with Hatred......

Abortion Clinics that you mention are just that!
you cannot justify a murder with a murder!
God will judge.......man has free will.....

Man on the other hand, take judgement onto their own hands.

Did Jesus Christ FORCE anyone to Follow Him?
No!
He said those that wish to follow him ,do so.........with many obstacles along the way.....




I'll say it again if Christianity teaches love then why does people kill and destroy under its name? The answer, if you have figured it out, applies to why you hate Islam in the first place.


One who follows Christ, follows the teachings of Christ......therefore Jesus Christ taught to LOVE one another and this commandement is in which all the other commandememnts rest.
If all the commandements rest on LOVE.....then there is no need for hatred to be among them....hatred leads to anger.....and when one is angry, then one does things that one later regrets.

Ok, now this is getting way off the subject!

I think that Muslims detained after prayers at Giants Stadium is justified......
If one happened to be Christians praying, near some air dUcts and looking suspicious, then they too should also have been detained.....Many Muslims would use this as Racial hatred.....This should not be the case.
Racial hatred///
eg....
My daughter was in the tram with a friend........she is polite to all and says hello to everyone.....next to her sat a young guy who said hello to her ....with the young guy,sat a girl similar in age but with a head scarf on and gave my daughter a few dirty looks.....my daughter asked her if anything was wrong and she said ''CHRISTIANS'' just look at you !
The young guy told my daughter not to pay attention to her(his sister)and said something to his sister in Arabic......the sister, continued the dirty looks and then my daughter told her that a head scarf doesnt make one a Holier person then others......some other stuff were said.....
Isn't that RACIAL HATRED to others that are not like them?

Recently on Australian, Melbourne news there was a Muslim man(iman?) who spoke good words in public, but behind closed doors.....said the exact opposite....
BE UP- FRONT......who are you hiding from?
What exactly is that saying to other Muslims who have no real clue to what the Koran is really saying......especially if this is coming from a man who knows what he says as being the word of Allah.....

I know that my God says to love and respect all people.
One does you bad, then do good in return.
What profit is it if evil is returned with evil?

Anyway......
IX
helen



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by KhieuSamphan
With all due respect, I simply do not believe that the claims made within this article are applicable to all adherents of the Islamic faith. Nor do I believe that execution for apostasy is a central tenet of the Islamic faith. Just because this article says it is true, that does not neccesarily mean it is true.I stand by my belief that it is the interpretation that is incorrect.


Apparently it is a part of Sharia law that is more widely paracticed than the example you gave.

Please note the word traditional.
This is a part of Islam.


Council on Foreign Relations

What happens in the case of apostasy?

The traditional punishment for Islamic apostasy--leaving Islam for another religion or otherwise abandoning the Islamic faith--is death.


More intolerance here for those who speak out against Islam:


Afghan editor gets two-year term for blasphemy (October 2005)

Advocates of religious freedom have raised concerns about a two year prison sentence meted out to the Afghan editor and chief of a leading woman's magazine who was convicted by a court for blasphemy against Islam


[edit on 6-11-2005 by AceOfBase]



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 10:22 AM
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AceOfBase...Fair do's.

You have set out your position and I respect your right to do that. I am not an expert on the interpretation of Sharia law, so I cannot say whether what you say is true or not, but I suspect that the texts may be open to, shall we say, interpretation.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 07:03 PM
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AceofBase, may i remind you that there are laws that prevent you from inciting racial hatred towards a paticular group?



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by paranoia
AceofBase, may i remind you that there are laws that prevent you from inciting racial hatred towards a paticular group?


I think that's only in Europe and I don't live there.
Any laws that prevent people from protecting their own country should be done away with anyways.
I think that's what happened in Britain, France, Denmark and Sweden and other places. The people were being overrun and could not speak out against it because of the laws preventing them from doing so.

Loook at the mess it has gotten France into.

[edit on 6-11-2005 by AceOfBase]



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 07:13 PM
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A good place to begin to cure your racism defect might be here: en.wikipedia.org...

Indeed free speech is important. Your France example isn't worth a reply - it has nothing to do with hate laws.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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The U.S. Congress defined in 1992 a hate crime as a crime in which "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals" (HR 4797).
In the last decade of the 20th century, legislation in many U.S. states has established harsher penalties for a number of crimes when they are also considered hate crimes.

en.wikipedia.org...

Whether you agree with this or not, let's not let this board become too full of racist propoganda - we don't want it getting unwanted attention (from both officials and neo nazi groups). Plus, it would be nice to have discussions where ignorance and obscene hatred doesn't run thick.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by paranoia
A good place to begin to cure your racism defect might be here: en.wikipedia.org...

Indeed free speech is important. Your France example isn't worth a reply - it has nothing to do with hate laws.


I now embrace Islamaphobia in non-Muslim countries.

You might think my mention of what's happening in France is not related to hate laws but I believe it is related because it stops people from speaking out and acting out against those who are invading their countries.



posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase


You might think my mention of what's happening in France is not related to hate laws but I believe it is related because it stops people from speaking out and acting out against those who are invading their countries.


I might be adding more fuel to the racist fire, but...
Who is invading their country? I thought this was an internal thing...



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