U.S. Forces "Incompetent"

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The difference is that we've gotten over it.

My grandmother's cousin was a POW in Japan, he looked like an Auschwitz prisoner when he was liberated. There were Aussie soldiers stationed in Japan as part of BCOF who married Japanese ladies and brought them back to Australia in the 40s and 50s.

Japanese crimes against the allies are absolutely nothing compared to what they did in China.

You lot seem to be able to ignore the 14 official apologies Japanese leaders have made to China for the atrocities of WW2 and keep demanding an "official apology".

LOL, they have a funny way of apologising. Japanese history books consistently cover up what really happened. The Rape of Nanking killed over 300 000 Chinese people ( many in sadistic ways ), the Japanese history books say no more than 1500 died Or how the Japanese occu[ationwas good for the Asian countries Just 2 of many many examples of Japaese covering up.
Doesn't seem like an apology when ctions don't represent the rhetoric.
The Japanese have never really apaologised for anything.

It was 60 years ago. They were tried, found guilty and executed. Get over it. The rest of us have.

The majority weren't. Consider Gerneral Shiro Ishii, the head of unit 731, he and his scientists got away scot free despite gruesome experiemnts on thousands of people using chemical and biological agents. China still has outbreaks of Bubonic Plague which can be linkied dirtectly to Unit 731's experiemtns on villages etc.

LOL and those ranking people who were execteed are worshipped at their war memeorial. Hardly seems like the Japanese think they did anything wrong.

PS. I suggest you do at least alittle reading on the subject. The Chinese have long memories, they won't forget what happened back then for a very long time.

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The difference is that we've gotten over it.

My grandmother's cousin was a POW in Japan, he looked like an Auschwitz prisoner when he was liberated. There were Aussie soldiers stationed in Japan as part of BCOF who married Japanese ladies and brought them back to Australia in the 40s and 50s.

Japanese crimes against the allies are absolutely nothing compared to what they did in China.

Bleat bleat, poor us, nobody loves us, everybody hates us, might as well go eat worms...

Japanese crimes against the allies were every bit equal. They machine-gunned Australian nurses.

You lot seem to be able to ignore the 14 official apologies Japanese leaders have made to China for the atrocities of WW2 and keep demanding an "official apology".

LOL, they have a funny way of apologising. Japanese history books consistently cover up what really happened. The Rape of Nanking killed over 300 000 Chinese people ( many in sadistic ways ), the Japanese history books say no more than 1500 died

Or how the Japanese occu[ationwas good for the Asian countries

Just 2 of many many examples of Japaese covering up.
Doesn't seem like an apology when ctions don't represent the rhetoric.
The Japanese have never really apaologised for anything.

The Japanese have apologised officially more than a dozen times. They also contribute far more in economic aid to the nations of Asia than anybody else. Your country was the Khmer Rouge's only friend, supplying them with arms, vehicles, ammunition and military and intelligence advisors, how about apologising to Cambodia?

It was 60 years ago. They were tried, found guilty and executed. Get over it. The rest of us have.

The majority weren't. Consider Gerneral Shiro Ishii, the head of unit 731, he and his scientists got away scot free despite gruesome experiemnts on thousands of people using chemical and biological agents. China still has outbreaks of Bubonic Plague which can be linkied dirtectly to Unit 731's experiemtns on villages etc.

Outbreaks of bubonic plague can be linked directly to the number of rats that live in your cities and towns. Bubonic plague is still carried by the Mongolian woodchuck, are you going to blame that on the Japanese? If you kill the rats then the flea that carries the plague wont have a medium. Of course that would require sanitation, which would require competence from your city leaders and investment from your government. And a little bit of taking responsibility for your circumstances yourself. Plague is a disease of the poor and the poorly-governed, not the previously occupied.

LOL and those ranking people who were execteed are worshipped at their war memeorial. Hardly seems like the Japanese think they did anything wrong.

Standard outsider's point-of-view. And correct, as far as it goes. But whether you choose to see it or not there is debate in Japan about its past. There are movies that attempt to do all you claim and there are movies which show atrocities. At least there is some debate in Japanese society.

Why don't you apply some of this critical analysis to the situation in Tibet?

PS. I suggest you do at least alittle reading on the subject. The Chinese have long memories, they won't forget what happened back then for a very long time.

Good advice, try taking it. As for memories, right now, that's all you've got. The French don't walk around telling the world they won't forget the crimes of the Nazis and can't forgive the Germans. Neither do the Israelis. Government's that encourage their people to look backwards, to past glories, or past humiliations, are doing so specifically to prevent you from looking around. Take a look around and ask yourself why your government wants you to look backwards, instead of forwards.

The problem the Japanese have is they suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the allies. The problem China has is that it suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Japanese and, no matter how you cut it, the CCP contributed zero percent to the allied victory over Japan. Mao was too busy preparing for the coming fight with Chiang Kai-Shek to get involved with that. At least the Nationalists, with "Vinegar" Joe Stilwell's prodding, contributed combat troops to the fight in Burma.

China is suddenly supplying Cambodia with tens of millions of dollars in aid grants and loans, I know from good sources that it is building 7 new buildings in its embassy compound in Phnom Penh, were all staff live on-site. Why the sudden interest? Cambodia has no natural resources except for timber and water. Is it because the KR tribunal might start soon and you're worried what the old men might say about you at their trial, or is it because you want to damn the Mekong and destroy the livelihoods of millions downstream and you don't want official protest?

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The difference is that we've gotten over it.

My grandmother's cousin was a POW in Japan, he looked like an Auschwitz prisoner when he was liberated. There were Aussie soldiers stationed in Japan as part of BCOF who married Japanese ladies and brought them back to Australia in the 40s and 50s.

Japanese crimes against the allies are absolutely nothing compared to what they did in China.

Bleat bleat, poor us, nobody loves us, everybody hates us, might as well go eat worms...

Japanese crimes against the allies were every bit equal. They machine-gunned Australian nurses.

Hmmm, I'm a caucasian Australian, I hvae no links to China. As I said before machine gunning nurses is absolutley nothing compared to what happened in China. Read the book the Rape of nanking ( a fwell known book ). Then you might have a little understanding.

You lot seem to be able to ignore the 14 official apologies Japanese leaders have made to China for the atrocities of WW2 and keep demanding an "official apology".

LOL, they have a funny way of apologising. Japanese history books consistently cover up what really happened. The Rape of Nanking killed over 300 000 Chinese people ( many in sadistic ways ), the Japanese history books say no more than 1500 died

Or how the Japanese occu[ationwas good for the Asian countries

Just 2 of many many examples of Japaese covering up.
Doesn't seem like an apology when ctions don't represent the rhetoric.
The Japanese have never really apaologised for anything.

The Japanese have apologised officially more than a dozen times. They also contribute far more in economic aid to the nations of Asia than anybody else. Your country was the Khmer Rouge's only friend, supplying them with arms, vehicles, ammunition and military and intelligence advisors, how about apologising to Cambodia?

My country as above. you didin't adress this part of my response at all, probably because you know everything to be true. Actions speak louder than words - apologies don't mean jack if you don't follow through with action. The germans acknowleged their past, the jaapanese never have. FACT.

It was 60 years ago. They were tried, found guilty and executed. Get over it. The rest of us have.

The majority weren't. Consider Gerneral Shiro Ishii, the head of unit 731, he and his scientists got away scot free despite gruesome experiemnts on thousands of people using chemical and biological agents. China still has outbreaks of Bubonic Plague which can be linkied dirtectly to Unit 731's experiemtns on villages etc.

Outbreaks of bubonic plague can be linked directly to the number of rats that live in your cities and towns. Bubonic plague is still carried by the Mongolian woodchuck, are you going to blame that on the Japanese? If you kill the rats then the flea that carries the plague wont have a medium. Of course that would require sanitation, which would require competence from your city leaders and investment from your government. And a little bit of taking responsibility for your circumstances yourself. Plague is a disease of the poor and the poorly-governed, not the previously occupied.

LOL, go and educate yourself. your response shows complete ignorance of what happened You don't even know who General Shiro Ishii was or Unit 731 do you It's obvious you don't.
LOL, typical insulated American. you probably think the US won the war against Germnay and the Soviet Union played a minor role

LOL and those ranking people who were execteed are worshipped at their war memeorial. Hardly seems like the Japanese think they did anything wrong.

Standard outsider's point-of-view. And correct, as far as it goes. But whether you choose to see it or not there is debate in Japan about its past. There are movies that attempt to do all you claim and there are movies which show atrocities. At least there is some debate in Japanese society.

LOL some debate60-70 years after the fact If this was the Germans denying the holocaust would you be saying the same thing, I think not. Your remarks show a complete lack of knowlege of the Japanese- Chinese war, as most AMericans you think the Japanese were friendly until Pearl Harbour. They had been at war with China since 1937, with a far larger army in China than ever faaced the Allies in the Pacific.

Why don't you apply some of this critical analysis to the situation in Tibet?

I do , as I said I'm not Chinese

PS. I suggest you do at least alittle reading on the subject. The Chinese have long memories, they won't forget what happened back then for a very long time.

Good advice, try taking it. As for memories, right now, that's all you've got. The French don't walk around telling the world they won't forget the crimes of the Nazis and can't forgive the Germans. Neither do the Israelis. Government's that encourage their people to look backwards, to past glories, or past humiliations, are doing so specifically to prevent you from looking around. Take a look around and ask yourself why your government wants you to look backwards, instead of forwards.

BS, the japanese haven't dealt with their past. How can the Chinese forget. The Germans did and have paid 10's of billions in reparations to the contries they occupied and to Israel itself. They even have laws making it illegal to deny the holocaust publicly.
Like I said the Japanese have a shrine for Tojo, Japan's Hitler. IMgaine if Germany had an official shrine to Adolf Hitler Comparing the way Germnay has dealt with the past is bluntly idiocy.

The problem the Japanese have is they suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the allies. The problem China has is that it suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Japanese and, no matter how you cut it, the CCP contributed zero percent to the allied victory over Japan. Mao was too busy preparing for the coming fight with Chiang Kai-Shek to get involved with that. At least the Nationalists, with "Vinegar" Joe Stilwell's prodding, contributed combat troops to the fight in Burma.

As I said the Japanese Army in China was larger than that which faced the Allies on the islands.

China is suddenly supplying Cambodia with tens of millions of dollars in aid grants and loans, I know from good sources that it is building 7 new buildings in its embassy compound in Phnom Penh, were all staff live on-site. Why the sudden interest? Cambodia has no natural resources except for timber and water. Is it because the KR tribunal might start soon and you're worried what the old men might say about you at their trial, or is it because you want to damn the Mekong and destroy the livelihoods of millions downstream and you don't want official protest?

Hmm, what has this got to do with China and Japan in WWII, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Obviously you ahte CHina for some reason, I don't care. But your arguments you have made ar complete BS
Eduavte yourself before you tak to much BS on the subject.

OMFG, Rogue.

You're accusing ME of being a Yank!?! I'm not the one with an American unit patch as my avatar. Maybe you haven't noticed the number of times I've mentioned my nationality on these threads...Or the number of times I've bashed America...

Machine-gunning nurses is every bit as bad as what they did to the Chinese. Numbers don't make a crime worse, they just make it bigger, the individual crimes within that, the murders and rapes, are no worse than other murders or rapes committed elsewhere.

Okay, General Shiro Ishii was not a nice man. And yes, he did get away with it scot-free. Josef Mengele was not a nice man either, and he was never prosecuted. Tell me, do you know who Reinhart Gehlen was?

AS for General Shiro Ishii and Unit 731, would you look at that, there were allied prisoners amongst his test subjects..."every bit as bad"...

You probably think the Diggers were betrayed by the British at Gallipoli...and again at Singapore...

Oh, really, 1937? Japanese expansion into China began loong before that. Why don't you check out the Russo-Japanese War of 1904/5. Or perhaps you think it was just the battle of Tsushima Strait, where Yamamoto lost his fingers...Or perhaps you'd like to step back to the first Sino-Japanese War a decade earlier than that...

Perhaps you'd better look a little more deeply into the issue surrounding the Korean and Chinese protests of recent months. Then you might see why the Chinese "have long memories". It most definitely isn't BS. Why is the Chinese government encouraging and controlling protests that frequently turn violent and damage Japanese-owned businesses? Businesses that employ Chinese and are contributing to China's economic growth?

What has Cambodia to do with Japan and China? Long memories, that's what. Why are the Chinese suddenly putting so much effort into the country you claim to be in? Why is the government of said country dragging its feet over the KR tribunal? It wouldn't be because the Chinese are $hite-scared of what those old men up in Paillin will say on the stand, would it? Might be a good time to get the world, and especially the young Chinese, focused on a different set of atrocities...

Yes, the Army of Kwantung was larger than that faced by the Allies in the Pacific. That still doesn't excuse Mao for not joining the fight in a meaningful way, especially given the amount of allied aid he was receiving for just that purpose.

The Japanese do NOT have a shrine FOR Tojo. Hideki Tojo was enshrined at Yasukuni. There is a major difference. Learn what it is. The Russians have a shrine for Lenin, the Chinese for Mao, the Yanks for Lincoln, JFK etc.

China, or anyone else, would stand little to no chance invading the US. We control both the Pacific and the Atlantic, with lots of room to seem the enemy comming. Add that to the fact that a lot of our citizens are gun owners, and fairly territorial, and I doubt any force would servive more than a few days on our shores. A war with China would most likely escalate into a nuclear/WMD battle very quickly, as they have a very similar advantage. What they lack in technology they make up for in sheer numbers. A bullet is a bullet, and it is ignorant to think we would send ours much more accurately than they could whether from a gun or a missle or whatever. In short, this conflict would be terrible and we should all pray we never see anything even close to this magnitude...ever

Bob Marley said it best my friends: "One love, one heart. Lets get together and we'll feel alright."

Originally posted by DaFunk13
A bullet is a bullet, and it is ignorant to think we would send ours much more accurately than they could whether from a gun or a missle or whatever.

What is ignorant is to think that technology and training have no influence over the accuracy of ballistic munitions.

Shootinga rifle is a skill which is improved through practice. Who do you think gets more time a range? A US GI or Chinese GI? More over, the accuracy of a GI can be improved with such optical sights as the EOTECH and AIMPOINT. Nearly every US footsoldier has access to these quick action optical sights. Do Chinese GIs?

As for all missles being equally accurate, don't make me laugh.

Do you really believe China can put a missle through the uprights of a football goal post from over 1000 miles away? The US can.

Hell, the US is at the point where we can put a missle through a bedroom window.

I do not believe there is another nation with that ability. Maybe the UK.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by American Mad Man]

And its also ignorant to think that China is so technologically inferior to the US. I am not questioning the capabilities of an individual missile. I could care less how accurate a missile is, I just know that when the major damage is done, your super sights on rifles wont make much difference. I hate to sound unpatriotic, but most US forces spend a couple months being "trained" to fire a rifle. This doesnt make them expert marksmen.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
This doesnt make them expert marksmen.

They may not be the most expert marksmen, but at least they can shoot better than most nations and as well as guerillas and terrorists.

Originally posted by DaFunk13
This doesnt make them expert marksmen.

Oh really?
If you indeed know so much indepth knowledge of marksmenship then tell me what YOU got the last time you shot?

What makes an excellent shooter?
Hitting the target dead center?
Grouping?
Fastest firer?

And its also ignorant to think that China is so technologically inferior to the US. I am not questioning the capabilities of an individual missile. I could care less how accurate a missile is,

Umm...yes you should care, the less accurate your missiles are more missiles you have to fire, the closer you have to be to the target, the longer it’s going to take for that target to be destroyed, and the more assets you have to put at risk to take that target out. You would have do all that, when you could fire one missile, from one asset, from a stand-off distance to do the same job.

I just know that when the major damage is done, your super sights on rifles wont make much difference.

Yes they will make a difference, close combat is still fought soldier to solder, If you cant hit anything past 400 yards you will be ripe for the picking for marines.

Or are you saying a trained soldier is as accurate as someone who uses the “spray and pray” technique?

As far as marksmenship goes, I think several things need to be taken into account.

First, US soldiers - perhaps unlike any other major nations in the world - often come into bootcamp with a decade of shooting under their belt. You can't say that about Chinese soldiers. You can't say that about European soldiers. We are often criticized by other nations for our proliferation of fire arms. In this case, it serves as a benefit to have John Doe from North Western Pennsylvainia or Western Texas come into boot camp having shot a rifle since he was 10 years old.

US soldiers also get more time on the firing range then most other soldiers - especially Russian and Chinese soldiers.

US soldiers get all of their training enhanced by optics.

Now, none of these things individually make a difference in specific cases, but when you put all of these factors into account over 2 million American soldiers, the US foot soldier has an advantage over most other nations soldiers.

Well mad man, just because you have fire arm practice doesnt really mean your going to be a better shooter.

I've been beaten by 2 of my cadets (who I might add had never held the weapon before the day), and I've handeled weapons for atleast 7 years now.

MADMAN :

please explain why ALL instructors at UK training establishments report that ghurka recruits are easiest to teach and consistently get higher range qualifucations , in a shorter time than other recruits . and the reasons cited for this are becase they arrived at depot with ZERO firearms experience - and more especially ZERO teevee and hollywierd BS floating round thier heads - nor any experience of console games

this means that they learn the weapons drills the MOD way - without question - un poluted by what they think they know

lastly , you wrote : "US soldiers get all of their training enhanced by optics."

so what ???? are they partially sighted - and unable to see the target without enhancement ???

all that means is that they will grow dependent on thier toys - and when they break - and murphy will make sure they do - the UBERSOLDAT who trained with his shiny toys will not have a clue what to do without them

I am a pretty good shot. I used to hunt as a kid, and I have 3 pistols now. I can outshoot my buddy who has been through army basic, and about a year in Korea. He has said flat out that most good shots are the ones who never shot a gun in their lives, almost like its a gift. The rest are just hillbillies who have been gun-nuts since they hatched. I am not saying our forces are "incompetent", those are my friends. I am just saying some Iraqi who has known nothing but conflict and danger probably treats his AK like an extension of his body. These are the people who were arming 13 year old kids to fight the USSR back when. To say that some "kid" who has spent the last 18 years in the average american household will be more fit for combat than people who have known nothing but conflict their entire lives is just wrong.

Westpoint
I wouldn't count on Marines being able to hit enemies at 400 yards, since they can't even determine between friend of foe at 100 yards.

Marines opened fire on our (FRDF) patrol at less than 100 yards, because they couldn't distinguish a BlueCrossed flag from a red armband... lucky for my friends this was an exercise (BG05)

...what scares me most is that these guys were supposed to be "elite"

Originally posted by American Mad Man
As far as marksmenship goes, I think several things need to be taken into account.

First, US soldiers - perhaps unlike any other major nations in the world - often come into bootcamp with a decade of shooting under their belt. You can't say that about Chinese soldiers. You can't say that about European soldiers. We are often criticized by other nations for our proliferation of fire arms. In this case, it serves as a benefit to have John Doe from North Western Pennsylvainia or Western Texas come into boot camp having shot a rifle since he was 10 years old.

US soldiers also get more time on the firing range then most other soldiers - especially Russian and Chinese soldiers.

US soldiers get all of their training enhanced by optics.

Now, none of these things individually make a difference in specific cases, but when you put all of these factors into account over 2 million American soldiers, the US foot soldier has an advantage over most other nations soldiers.

My friend, you are living in fantasy land.

ALL accounts of US forces that have been related to me have cited the same fact.

US Forces are for the most part, incompetent. Whether it is basic infantry tactics, fieldcraft, whatever, but especially marksmanship, they are laboring under the false pretense that the technology will do it all for them. Just like the video game, point and click.

As was stated above, strip them of the technology and they are helpless. As I stated before, during training of recruits I often used photos of US Forces on exercise to demonstrate what not to do. I have seen poor fieldcraft, gold jewellery being worn and an over-reliance on backup and technology.

If it ever came down to trench warfare the US would lose, as they are not hungry enough to win. They would give up and whine far faster than any other potential enemy they face, and the main reason is the line of BS they are fed from birth about being invincible.

Originally posted by northwolf
Westpoint
I wouldn't count on Marines being able to hit enemies at 400 yards, since they can't even determine between friend of foe at 100 yards.

Can you tell friend from foe at 100 yards?

At 400 yards your more likely to see the bergen on thier back than the soldier himself.

I have no doubt marines and army can hit enemy up to and including 500 meteres, how you know there enemy before 500 meteres is another matter.

Marines opened fire on our (FRDF) patrol at less than 100 yards, because they couldn't distinguish a BlueCrossed flag from a red armband... lucky for my friends this was an exercise (BG05)

Can you pick out a red arm band at 100 yards?
PS, this blue crossed flag, are you telling me the enemy in this wargame of yours brought back the standard bearer??

...what scares me most is that these guys were supposed to be "elite"

Would it scare you to know that an SAS unit opened fire and killed an SBS from about the same range?

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
My friend, you are living in fantasy land.

ALL accounts of US forces that have been related to me have cited the same fact.

US Forces are for the most part, incompetent. Whether it is basic infantry tactics, fieldcraft, whatever, but especially marksmanship, they are laboring under the false pretense that the technology will do it all for them. Just like the video game, point and click.

As was stated above, strip them of the technology and they are helpless. As I stated before, during training of recruits I often used photos of US Forces on exercise to demonstrate what not to do. I have seen poor fieldcraft, gold jewellery being worn and an over-reliance on backup and technology.

If it ever came down to trench warfare the US would lose, as they are not hungry enough to win. They would give up and whine far faster than any other potential enemy they face, and the main reason is the line of BS they are fed from birth about being invincible.

With respect I hardly think the entire of the US armed forces are incompetent, thats like saying the entire of the MOD is under eqquiped and under manned.

Who are you comparing them against by the way?

Devilwasp, It was PeaceKeeping exercise, Both USMC and FRDF were part of the MNTF (in additon to forces from other countries) operating in the "crisis region"
One group of target personel wore the red armbands.. and winter camos, other groups were in civilian outfits... Our boys were wearing Green M91 camos... and a flag in their vehicle that parked about 150 yards away + they had their nationality flags on...
I'm not claiming that all US troops are idiots,just these morons who opened fire without even trying to identify their targets (SGT leading the patrol knew the passwords etc.)

Btw USMC took the highest "game casualities" in the exercise,mainly because they were exessively eager to use force, without even trying to negotiate... So i can partially see how US troops are not getting along in iraq...

But Italians and french suffered serious freezing casualities from the cold (-30C), US too had some freezing cases, our battallion (Finns and swedes) had none...

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
MADMAN :

please explain why ALL instructors at UK training establishments report that ghurka recruits are easiest to teach and consistently get higher range qualifucations , in a shorter time than other recruits . and the reasons cited for this are becase they arrived at depot with ZERO firearms experience - and more especially ZERO teevee and hollywierd BS floating round thier heads - nor any experience of console games

this means that they learn the weapons drills the MOD way - without question - un poluted by what they think they know

Well, you are comparing the UK to the US.

Thats not fair. You see, here in the US, our boys grow up learning how to shoot. I'd bet you at 13 years old I could out shoot most 18 year old 'trained soldiers' with a .308 - the reason is that at 13 years old, I had already been hunting for several years.

Just as Canadians have hockey in their blood, so too does the US have riflery in it's blood.

lastly , you wrote : "US soldiers get all of their training enhanced by optics."

so what ???? are they partially sighted - and unable to see the target without enhancement ???

So what? Have you ever used Trijicon optics? I'm going to assume you haven't, because if you had, you wouldn't make yourself out to be so uninformed.

The big deal is how much these optics improve your accuracy AND reactionary time. I have one mounted to one of my own assult rifles. The difference is austounding

all that means is that they will grow dependent on thier toys - and when they break - and murphy will make sure they do - the UBERSOLDAT who trained with his shiny toys will not have a clue what to do without them

They have been in combat for 5 years now - and they haven't had problems breaking