NEWS: Thousands Protest Indian U.S Wargames

Noisy protests by thousands of "marxists" have taken place at India's Kolkata airport where the U.S and India are due to begin wargame exercises for 13 days. The games will take place over the garrison town of Kalaikinda and will involve India's Russian designed MiG-29 and MiG-21 planes along with the U.S F-16's. Protestors say they fear the wargames are part of a U.S strategy to set up U.S bases in the region and they have said three million people will protest the wargames when they commence.



I find it interesting that the protestors have all been labelled "Marxist" I do not think it is a prerequisite to be a "maxist" in order to protest foreign involvement in your countries military on your soil.



[edit on 4-11-2005 by Mayet]

India's "strategic interests" are not to get glassed by fundamentalists in an eventual united Islamic nation launching nukes at them. Many militant Islamics have shown before that they have little more than apathy for Hindus and Buddhists.

www.boloji.com...

Oh, and they're doing this to keep receiving our financial aid, especially in the wake of this disastrous year.

I don't think India cares one whit whether the Kolkatian province is ruled by Marxists or monkeys. They only care that American technology will be there to assist them if/when a united Arab front assaults them.

America, on the other hand, is just going to use this developing military alliance as another pressure tactic to further suppress the creation of a united, fundamentalist, anti-capitalist, anti-American, Islamic nation.

I do not think it is a prerequisite to be a "maxist" in order to protest foreign involvement in your countries military on your soil

I don't recall the article saying we were involved in their military, on their soil or otherwise... Involved WITH their military, yes, but not IN. Are we giving them pilots or personel beyond what is needed to train the Indians in the technologies? Are we trying to direct their military forces one way or another?

Wargames have always been an important part of combat training, and if we are truly in a strategic military alliance with India, it's probably a good idea that they and we are trained to work well with one another. Also, we could be showing off some of the technology they will soon be receiving as a part of the alliance.

Originally posted by Mayet
I find it interesting that the protestors have all been labelled "Marxist" I do not think it is a prerequisite to be a "maxist" in order to protest foreign involvement in your countries military on your soil.



[edit on 4-11-2005 by Mayet]

....they are marxist, try reading up on the politics of west bengal instead of saying such things in ignorance

Its nice that these two are sharing their scientific achievments. India has some very sophisticated scientific programs and researchers. Hey let the war games continue. They're just games.

India's "strategic interests" are not to get glassed by fundamentalists in an eventual united Islamic nation launching nukes at them. Many militant Islamics have shown before that they have little more than apathy for Hindus and Buddhists.

I think India is and should be more worried about a newly reinvigorated Red Dragon.

Originally posted by namehere

Originally posted by Mayet
I find it interesting that the protestors have all been labelled "Marxist" I do not think it is a prerequisite to be a "maxist" in order to protest foreign involvement in your countries military on your soil.

....they are marxist, try reading up on the politics of west bengal instead of saying such things in ignorance

Could not have said it better .

Amazing how much information is not truly understood simply for what it is....

namehere did you even read what I wrote.. Marxist is a label these people have been labelled and you do not need to be labelled to protest against foreign involvement on your soil

see in this case those marxists you are so fanatical to call them, are firstly and foremostly citizens... peoples of a place... and those people whether they be marxist communists socialist democrats liberals labour or otherwise have the right to protest against anything that happens in their land...

so who's ignorant.. me for stating a fact or you for not reading properly what I wrote...hmm lets see now...

and if you don't mind, can you please stop jumping down my throat with your nitpicks everytime I make a comment on a subject, my tonsils are protesting the intrusion...



[edit on 4-11-2005 by Mayet]

I don't think namehere ever disputed their right to protest the war games, or anything else for that matter. You're putting words in his mouth and accusing him of the very same thing which you are doing. The bottom line remains that the large majority of these protestors are communists, and the protests themselves were organized by communist leaders.

namehere was right in his labeling of this group. If they're offended by the fact that they're labeled as Marxists then maybe they should reject communism and they won't have that problem anymore. There's nothing wrong with labeling a group correctly, so long as its not offensive. You were wrong and I think you should just drop the argument now before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole.

--Namehere

Communism does not mean Marxism. Marxism is a broader term, encompassing a process.

These people are not communist. They are highly communal, but still rely heavily on a heirarchical caste system where the few rule the many with reward conditions for the ruled.

www.findarticles.com...

In essence, they call themselves communist, perhaps even want to be communist eventually, but are actually practicing socialists.

Ignorance....?....

--Rasputin

I believe Mayet's original quote was only meant to point out that the article was phrased as though the citizens of Kolkata were protesting because they were Marxist, and that he didn't understand why that was requisite to protest something in their own land. Perhaps they are Marxist. That's fine, I don't think there's a dispute with the Marxist statement. But one would think they could protest regardless of their political affiliation...

--Sardion

No doubt, they are, and should be, afraid of the growing Chinese threat. However, I believe the current fear of a strong, fanatical anti-Hindu anti-Buddhist nuclear power is more to be feared than their Chinese neighbors to the northeast.

China will more than likely go for Burma, Thailand and Taiwan, and unleash North Korea on South Korea and Japan before they make their move over the Himalayas again. All of these conquests would take them quite a while, since most of these countries have military allignments with western Europe and the U.S. Also, India has quite a long border, most of which is mountainous and hilly.

If China engages India (without nukes, of course), it would likely be more costly for China than they can afford in terms of technology. They do have the third largest airforce in the world, but most are outdated Russian Badger and Beagle (bombers) ripoffs and Flankers (SU-30s) and Fighting Leopards (JH-7) (fighters). Most of their airforce/naval air is not fly-by-wire, and if they come up against our advanced f -15s or -16s in India's hands, China's gonna be in for it. If we give them missle tech too, some of our SAM and AAM tech, it'll be a bloodbath.

The final key here is this: India now has nukes. China is a secular-run nation, and they have no desire to be consumed in a nuclear conflagration. A militant Islamic state, however, probably wouldn't have near as many qualms with mutually assured destruction.

Why do they even have to put the term 'Marxist' into it?

We all know why...to discredit from the start. Think of 3million people, that is roughly 1/20th of the United Kingdom's population. On the streets standing against an issue. Although it might not seem like much it is a lot of people to stand up to anything if they all turn up.

However by claiming all those people are 'Marxists' it is helping to stigmatize them and force the protest to the side-lines. Now whatever they are speaking about and against will be because of this - which is highly unlikely. In fact, there are very few groups in India who could ever be called 'Marxists' and I have seen none with this much support...

Originally posted by 4V4T4R

--Rasputin

I believe Mayet's original quote was only meant to point out that the article was phrased as though the citizens of Kolkata were protesting because they were Marxist, and that he didn't understand why that was requisite to protest something in their own land. Perhaps they are Marxist. That's fine, I don't think there's a dispute with the Marxist statement. But one would think they could protest regardless of their political affiliation...

Yes that is correct and as Odium said it appears to be an effort to discredit them. In our western society, if socialism, marxism or communism is mentioned people take a turn away attitude.

As said these people were not protesting for anything to do with marxism really, see foremost they were protesting foreign involvement on their soil, doesn't matter what political leanings the people have.

Originally posted by Mayet
As said these people were not protesting for anything to do with marxism really, see foremost they were protesting foreign involvement on their soil, doesn't matter what political leanings the people have.

Political alignment and affiliation has no bearing as to ‘group’ intent.. sure?…. I wonder how fast this thought will be forgotten.



.

I am apolitical that is to mean I hate them all evenly... but you know sometimes I agree with some marxist protests, sometimes i agree with some socialist protests and so on. Its not a prerequisite to even have a label yet alone using it in this case. I am not green - but i love nature I protest some green issues.

It is a label a political label on an environmental and living issue.

When I started uni, everyone ran around saying hey Im a marxist what are you, I would always answer - me every bit of me

everyone seems to happy to grab a label and stick it on peoples forehead. Everyone is different, no two beings the same not even identical twins.

I will point to the new teen sensation - punk - emo - goth - westie - surfie - preppy - and so on. These are labels. and you know they don't always fit. everyone seems so quick to want to label it classify it and lock it away in the box. Life is more complex than that. people are more complex than that.



[edit on 5-11-2005 by Mayet]

Originally posted by Mayet
I will point to the new teen sensation - punk - emo - goth - westie - surfie - preppy - and so on. These are labels. and you know they don't always fit. everyone seems so quick to want to label it classify it and lock it away in the box. Life is more complex than that. people are more complex than that.

All right….There is a Communist Party, yes? The is a fairly 'sizeable' Communist Party inside India, yes?....

and they call themselves ‘Marxists’!

CPIM Website

News release from the same website: (excerpt)

November 3, 2005
Press Statement

The Communist Party of India (Marxist), Communist Party of India, All India Forward Bloc and Revolutionary Socialist Party have issued the following statement:

Deepening Indo-US Military Ties

In the wake of the Indo-US defence framework agreement various steps are being taken to deepen military ties between the two countries. A series of joint military exercises and training programmes are being conducted.
~~[snip]~~

A photo from the rally: (Link)

There is no 'label'......good grief!

.

cjf, under Stalin the U.S.S.R. used to hold elections so they could claim they were a democracy.

Of course, his party always won. With a super-majority.

Just because I call something, something, it doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by Odium
cjf, under Stalin the U.S.S.R. used to hold elections so they could claim they were a democracy.

Of course, his party always won. With a super-majority.

Just because I call something, something, it doesn't make it so.

What the…..has that (above) have anything to do with the established politics of India? What does that have to do with the parties of India? Let alone a protest staged by self proclaimed Marxists which are members of the Communist Party-Marxists (CPM).

Do you have any idea how many political alignments there are in India with 548 constituencies? There are 545 elected seats….. guess what? the CPM (Communist Party-Marxist) have quite a few seats!

Why is this even an issue with the ‘labeling’?

It is the same as not being able to call a member of the DNC a 'Democrat'.



.

No, Cjf, just that they are not actually Marxist's.

I went over their site, actually I have before and it is far from a Marxist group they just use the name to cause a bit of controversy.

Also the Lok Sabha has,
530 seats elected from the States.
20 from Union Terrirtories.

With the chance for two other members from the Anglo-Indian Community if the President thinks they are not adequately represented.

It has a maximum size of 552 as outlined in the Indian Constitution.
[See here]

At the present moment there are 543 elected members not 545. Although there are 545 members in their Parliament at present. [Fourteenth Lok Sabha formed in May 2004.]

The Communist Party of India (Marxist) won 43 seats this time around, gaining 5.66% of the vote.

Rajya Sabha has 250 seats.

However, the Communist Party of India (Marxist), only claimes to have 814,408. [Wikipedia].

So either they have gone up 4 fold, for this march or the vast majority of people on the protest are in fact not Marxist's or even members of the party itself. Thus the label Marxism, is being used against these people who just disagree with the actions of the Government.

There is only one logical reason as to why...to discredit them.

Unless in 3 years, they have gained 2.2million more members.

The problem in this argument is that the term 'marxist' is in no way a derogatory in India. It is not like in the west. Marxists are very much part of every day political life in India.

Indian has several Communist parties, the 2 big ones being Communist Party of India (CPI) & Communist Party of India, Marxist (CPI(M)). These are the largely peaceful parties that are part of main stream political life. And the comment about them being 'communal' is so far removed from the truth that it is not even worth commenting upon.

Besides this there are several Anarchist groups in India like the People's War Group, the Maoists etc etc. They are called the Naxals. So in comparison with them Marxist are considered repectable people, which they are.

Also politcal affiliation in India is not like it is in the States. People do not usually become members off the parties that they vote for. This is because India is a multi-party system with several political parties both regional and national. It does not make sense to become themember of a particular one. Indian politics is highly dynamic, with new parties formed frequently and political affiliations changing on a daily basis. Take the state of Maharashtra as a recent example. A Mr. Narayan Rane who was the Chief Minister of Maharashtra in the government of BJP-Shiv Sena Combine, and is now the opposition, fell out with his party chief and went and joined the ruling UPA Alliance (whom he was a bitter enemy of while he was in the Shiv-Sena)!!! He is now a cabinet minister in the UPA Alliance! So political membership is pretty useless cause there is no gurantee that the leader you support will be in the same party by the time of the next elections.

So the membership of CPI(M) is irrelevant. When they want to organise a rally they can mobilise millions at very short notice, and trust me Indian Political Parties are extremely good at doing that

Originally posted by Odium
No, Cjf, just that they are not actually Marxist's.

I went over their site, actually I have before and it is far from a Marxist group they just use the name to cause a bit of controversy.

What?

Well it is working lol….this still has nothing to do with ‘this’ label being posted upon ‘them’.

Alright… the party of name originated in state during the 20’s and 30’s. Much of what helped to develop the party were the common socialistic indoctrinations during imprisonment around the 1910-1920.

Precisely like that of such persons as Subodh Roy (there are many, many more) who would become initial leaders in the Communist Party of India and (coincidentally) learned their ‘Marxism’ while incarcerated.

Inspiration for Marxist leanings also stemmed from the Russian revolution in 1917. There is nothing in the history of the party which suggests a ‘taking’ of the ‘name’ to cause controversy, unless the ‘controversy’ you mention is surrounding the revolutionary period. Marxism has been at the core of ‘their’ ideology since inception.

Originally posted by Odium
…….At the present moment there are 543 elected members not 545. Although there are 545 members in their Parliament at present. [Fourteenth Lok Sabha formed in May…… 2004.]

Although I did not specify nor speak to specifics concerning the ‘lower house of parliament’; rather my intent was simply to touch on the size of the body… not to argue the mechanics.

…the 04’ results are 545 seats with two being appointed (my oversight by not mentioning the 2 appointed seats)

Originally posted by Odium
There is only one logical reason as to why...to discredit them.

This is a ‘Western’ ethnocentric statement; the connotations are not the same.

'Marxist' is not a derogatory 'name' nor is it a derogatory 'label' in India! people are proud of their party. There is tremendous history and great leadership within the party (much, much more than the squib I posted)

Originally posted by Odium
So either they have gone up 4 fold, for this march or the vast majority of people on the protest are in fact not Marxist's or even members of the party itself. Thus the label Marxism, is being used against these people who just disagree with the actions of the Government.

The 'Marxists' are part of the government!

West Bengal and Kerala are ‘left’, the increased saturation of Communist Party (Marxists) persons in these regions are much greater. The use of the word ‘Marxist’ is not explicitly derogatory when used in the context of the article, especially for the regions named in the article.

And what’s this ‘4 fold’ and following 'math' examples? eg...

Originally posted by Odium
Unless in 3 years, they have gained 2.2million more members.

Are we reading the same article?

Are you referring to the following statement as fact (by example of your ‘math’)?

From the posted article:

…"Three million people will gather in front of the airbase when the exercise begins," he said….

That is an empty threat, purposeful stretch and a political exaggeration by Amitava Nandy. C’mon!….

"US planes... go back, go back," screamed thousands of protesters in Kolkata, capital of Marxist-ruled West Bengal state, arguing that exercises with the United States were against India's strategic interests.

A few thousand is nothing for the region. Especially for the Marxists.


.

--puneetsg

And the comment about them being 'communal' is so far removed from the truth that it is not even worth commenting upon.

Though the parties themselves may not be communal (and thus communist in the true spirit of the word), the people of the area in fact are quite communal, as are many Hindu communities. Possibly this is part of why they have been linked to the communist (or Marxist) parties, along with the purpose of spreading continued western disinformation.

from my first post, a little history of the area...:
www.boloji.com...