NEWS: Minutemen Are Using a New Tactic In their Fight On Illegal Immigration

I suggest you take a look at this chart: here

If you think they are all coming from Latin America. Roughly only half of them are to two-thirds of the illegal population. There are European, Asian, African, even Canadian people in the United States illegally.

Source
Stalking is repeated harassment or other forms of invasion of a person's privacy in a manner that causes fear to its target. It is essentially a course of conduct and particular acts include:

• repeated following;
  
• unwanted contact (by letter-writing, or other means of communication); or
  
• observing a person's actions extremely close for an extended period of time.

That's pretty much stalking. Would you like to be followed, videoed, etc?

Yorga, where did you get that estimate from?

Do you support, innocent people being bothered on the basis people 'think' they have commited a crime?

What is it they do in Syria? Do they not get 1 in 240 people to spy on other people? Recording their movements, reproting in on it - so on and so fourth. To be honest, I see no major difference. They follow them in case they are committing crimes and the same is happening now.

Would it not be wiser for the Tax Office to just employ these people to go over the expenses records of large 'labour' based corporations? If they are willing to do it for free that would be a better idea. To go over the amount they take in and the amount they spend and to then find out if there are any "problems" with the sums. Report them and then check on the company itself?

These are just people! They see America as the only way to survive. We can't blame or harrass them in this way for comeing here, this kind of stuff needs to be in the hands of the border patrol and police not citizens.

Thank you Odium for you last post.
You totally blew your argument out of the water.
As stated, there was no mention of race except by the opponents of the minutemen. You argument that the minutemen were stalking is negated by your own explaination of stalking.

Stalking is repeated harassment or other forms of invasion of a person's privacy in a manner that causes fear to its target. It is essentially a course of conduct and particular acts include:

There is no close monitoring,
there is no following
Thank you!




[edit on 3-11-2005 by kenshiro2012]

cownosecat,
the issue is not against the immigrants who are here legally and who have used proper channels to be in the us legally. The issue is the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants who are no resident in the US.

Really?

Odd...many of these people are picked up by buses or taxi based transport, so they do not know who they will be working for. Many others will go to the work by themselves without having to be picked up.

Stalking is repeated harassment or other forms of invasion of a person's privacy in a manner that causes fear to its target. It is essentially a course of conduct and particular acts include:

You need to read my quote.

Those were examples of stalking, not the law itself.

I suggest you check Ohio state law:

Menacing by Stalking
No person by engaging in a pattern of conduct shall knowingly cause another person to believe that the offender will cause physical harm to the other person or cause mental distress to the other person.

Most lawyers will use the 'pattern' part of the law to identify them doing it to several people on the basis of race.
Mental distress is easy enough, to lie about. "I was worried they would take the law into their own hands." or "I was worried they would keep bothering me because of how I looked" or "I had lost sleep over it". So on and so fourth. Mental distress is one of the most awful things to argue against especailly if the lawyers teach their witness well.

Judge Donna Congeni Fitzsimmons, put an awful law in with the help of Mayor Madeline Cain [while she was state representative.]

here ya go
www.minutemanhq.com... I'll be sending them money instead of giving to someone who will just hand it over to illegals

[edit on 3-11-2005 by deadcatsrule]

With that then you may want to remind yourself of the Video Vigilante Brian Bates. He gained notority world wide with his video taping of prostitues and their johns "in the act". He would then provide the video tapes to the cops as well as to the wives of the johns.
To date the only thing that the city counsil have been able to do is chage the man with pandering (go figure) they have not been abel to charge the man with stalking nor defamation nor any other crime.
Here is a link to the guy's web site
johntv.com

Kenshiro, this is because the people were guilty.

If they slept with the prostitute than they have done it and no court would bother with a defamation case. However if they have done nothing wrong than he could have been.

On February 8, 2005, members of the Oklahoma City vice and street officers arrested me at a road block near my home. Shortly thereafter I was told I was being arrested for pandering and aiding prostitution. Ultimately, I was officially charged with five felony counts of pandering. Charges which carry a punishment of 20-100 years in prison. But, the story doesn't end there.

His case is on going at the present moment or at least that is what the site makes out.

Really, I dislike innocent people being punished and treated as though they are guilty. In the case of videoing people going to work this is what is happening.

Hassle the company, go over their paper work. Get the legal rights to turn up and check how many people they have employed and then compare it to the records. But do not bother the workers because your treatment is unfair and if a half-decent lawyer got a hold of it, would become a crime.

Originally posted by cownosecat
These are just people! They see America as the only way to survive. We can't blame or harrass them in this way for comeing here, this kind of stuff needs to be in the hands of the border patrol and police not citizens.

you make me want to vomit

Why do they hop the fences or travel across the border at night? Why do they sneak past the little bit of security we do have at the border? Because they KNOW what they are doing is WRONG. They KNOW that if they visit our country properly they'll have to pay taxes and all the other crap that you and I have to go thru just to live here. They know what they are doing is wrong!!!! Illegals can come to America, work under the table, never pay taxes, get free healthcare from Medicade and Medicare at our expense and send all their freakin money they make back to MEXICO!


Yes we CAN blame the illegals!

And yes we can also blame our government for not doing anything about it.

I wish more Americans cared like the minutemen do.

so Odium,
what you are contending is that
the employers who are picking these people up for day work are not breaking the law?
that the people that are looking for day work are not breaking the law?
Hate to tell you this but in both cases, they are breaking the law and only one of which maybe the hiring of illegal aliens.

As stated before, the employers who use day workers nearly never report such employment to the goverment offices so they are not paying the unemployment taxes, fica etc.

The employees are guilty of the same.

The Minutemen are not the ones that are determining who is breaking the laws here. they are providing the evidence to public officials so that they may determine if there are laws being broken.
The issue of the legal status of the workers is only one part of the puzzle. but not the whole picture.

Just to add this new news that Foxnews is reporting. The goverment is looking into providing the Minutemen with training so that they can officially perform the duties of border patrol that they have been volunteering to do. Thus the goverment is now starting to catch the drift of the american public that the illegal immigrant issue is something that needs to be addressed and the goverment is starting to sanction the minutemen instead of demonizing them.

Odium,

The estimate of illegals in this country was taken from last nights NBC Evening News as they were doing a story on the minute men and the situtation we are discussing here, if I can find a link that has that info I will post it. The minute men are taking pictures and video of the trucks, cars, buses and people that are engaging in illegal activity. They are turning the info over to the proper authorities. The illegals are paid in cash, no taxes are paid that in itself is serious. Any company that knowingly hires an illegal is breaking the law not to mention that the person is breaking the law just by being here. I understand that they just want to work, so what?
Come here legally and work and pay taxes like the rest of us. I haven't even mentioned the fact that while they are here their kids are crowding our public schools draining tax dollars that are suppose to be used for the
children that are here legitimately. Damn don't get me started about that!

Originally posted by Odium

That's pretty much stalking. Would you like to be followed, videoed, etc?

I am followed every time I drive home from work late at night I can see the Police car in my rear view mirror. I am videotaped every time I go shopping, to the bank, etc. If they are in public and the tape is not being used for or shown for profit there is very little that can be done.

Originally posted by Odium
Do you support, innocent people being bothered on the basis people 'think' they have commited a crime?

No I don't. I have these thoughts when I am sitting in traffic for 45 to 50 minutes waiting my turn at a DUI checkpoint.

Every other year I have to provide my employer with identification proving that I have a right to work in the US. I am a natural born citizen, single and being taxed like crazy. I am supposed to be tolerant of someone who is in my country illegaly, who is not paying taxes and the employer who is not paying the illegal's Social Security taxes (my employer pays by the way). I am supposed to be tolerant when I know people who are looking at having their houses taken, their heat turned off and insufficient medical care because their tax dollars are going to pay a family that is here illegaly. No I am not tolerant of this. If these Minutemen were trying to arrest these people if they were commiting physical violence against these people then they wouldn't have my support. All they are doing is collecting evidence of illegal activity and presenting it to the proper authorities. If the person is legally able to work in the US the proper paperwork should be on file with the employer and the employer should be able to show that the proper taxes are being paid. All of this can be done without bothering the person in question. If the person is not legally entitled to work in the US both they and their employer need to be prosecuted.

[edit on 3-11-2005 by JIMC5499]

ask the Americans in Alabama and Louisiana how they like seeing them taking there jobs .Even the mayor was on TV complaining about it

[edit on 3-11-2005 by deadcatsrule]

kenshiro2012, that would roughly fall under vicarious liability depending on how the lawyer argued it.

As for the other points that people make, everything they are doing here can easily be done by gonig direct to the company.

Source
These people aren't in a quandary over new tax laws or changes to the code. These are illegal immigrants who – up until today – have been using false social security numbers to work in the United States. Immigrants like them are flocking in record numbers to IRS offices and seminars such as this one to learn how to become legal US taxpayers.

The whole system needs to be re-worked, from both a tax level and a company level. If these people knew how to pay tax I bet a vast majority would so as to avoid being deported.

People seem to forget you need immigrants, because too many people in the United States [like the U.K.] do not wish to do certain jobs. Especailly when they can gain better ones.

If you do not have those workers, you'll soon see a lot less farmers and prices sky rocket in construction and they are bad enough as it is.

Wow, Odium, should we sue the cops for arresting Manson? Ted Bundy? Jeffery Dahmer? I mean, your arguement is it's ok to break the law and if anyone catches you breaking the law it is wrong. So all these murderers should be let go(the ones who didn't fry by Ol' Sparky anyways) and the rapists, I mean really, weren't the girls asking for it Odium? So let the rapists go just because they were doing something illegal doesn't mean they should get in trouble for it, right Odium?

By your very own definition is an invasion of privacy. If I am out in the public domain then there is no invasion of privacy, nor do I have a preponderance to demand privacy while out in public. Example, If I video tape you out in public, I can broadcast that video, use your likeness without your consent etc... because you are in view of the of public and cannot be afforded privacy. Otherwise, the news would be guilty of stalking people while video taping for a news event. So, by definition, stalking doesn't even apply in this situation. A more appropriate (and realistic) example of stalking would be if I continually called you at home or staked out your home, repeatedely visited you at work, attempted to gain personal information about you from firends or family under false pretense etc...

Odium,
You can not have it both ways.
You first propose the argument that the minutemen are are stalking and defaming the employers and employees by video taping these people and then providing the authorities the tapes.
Once I show that this is sop you then go on to argue that in my example of johntv was that the "victims" were guilty of a crime whereas the employees / employers were not.
I then present the argument that both employers as well as the employees are breaking the law, you now say that this should be determined by the lawyers.
How do you think it will get to the lawyers?
Someone has to provide evidence of some nature before it can be taken to court .
Remember that all the police or the tax officials need to do (which is there job) would be to review the records that both the employers as well as the employees to prove weather or not the employment is properly reported or not.
As a small buisness owner, I know that I have to report the wages paid every quarter. So I know that is would be very simple procedure.

Immigrants do provide a service in this country and every other country in the world. They do fill the jobs that others do not want, but they can still be here legally. My daughter-in-law was recruited from Canada by North Carolina to come here and teach. We have a serious shortage of teachers and nurses in my state. These jobs are being filled by legal immigrants. I work at IBM, there are thousands of immigrants from every country on the planet and they are all here legally. Our farmers bring migrants here every season by the bus load to harvest the crops but they come here legally. Saying that without illegals our economy will suffer is hogwash. Thats big buisness code for we are making lots of money so don't screw with the status quo! Problem is it is hurting you and me. Taxes are not being paid, Social Secruity is not being withheld, etc. etc. This directly affects me and the rest of the hard working Americans that are already taxed to death and pray like hell that by the time they retire there will even be Social Secruity. Immigrants are more than welcome here as long as they come here legally.Get a green card, a working visa, pay taxes, do it legally.

kenshiro2012, where did I say that?

I said how they might argue the case.

Full Metal there is a difference between "average joe" setting out to solve crimes and a Police officer.

There is a difference between someone setting out to be a witness to a crime and being a witness to a crime by accident.

Kozmo, if you videod me more than once, in the same spot and I believe it was to harm me I would be able to make the case in court. With the way things are now [highly over-protective] it is likely that a Judge would rule in my favour if I took it through a civil court. In a Jury trial it all depends on what other videos were found.

There is a much easier situation than bothering innocent people.

It is a case of the tax office doing its job. It is that simple. If the minutemen want to help, they should join that for free and do a few hours of work in the evening.

It is a simple case of checking incoming money against out goings and then going to the company and checking who they are employing.

As for them getting legal status? How long can that take? In fact for my Canadian friend to get into the U.S. it took over two-years. Many of these people would rather run the risk and then apply once inside the U.S.

As I am sure I pointed out earlier, you need to change the system and make it a lot quicker. In fact, anything more than 4months is far too long.