Hey ShantyMan, Ive been to Norn Ireland ..... I think a lot of Catholics these days would put a different perspective on your spin. I do think that the under lying hate and distrust still exists.

And on your second point, on why Im still here ..... believe me, if I didnt have wife and kids I'd be well gone!!!

And no matter what you say ...... people in the US dont have life as good as people in many countries have. Freedom ..? yeah, what ever ..... I suppose you still believe in the home of the brave too? Last time I looked Panama, Grenada, Kosovo and Somalia were bitter bitter fights between an elephant and an ant. I guess taking on a bunch of lightly armed street thugs is brave. I mean seriously ..... when did 'the brave' actually win a war without help ..... or step up to the plate with the rest of the world to fight a "real" war like WWI and WWII

They ran in Vietnam. They ran in Somalia. They drew Korea. And were THE very LAST country to step foward to Fight the Fight of Freedom in WWI and WWII ...... Well is that brave or guilt, about staying home and hiding under your bedcovers?

Brave??? Huh ..... timid Bullies!!

Originally posted by The_Camel
And no matter what you say ...... people in the US dont have life as good as people in many countries have. Freedom ..? yeah, what ever ..... I suppose you still believe in the home of the brave too? Last time I looked Panama, Grenada, Kosovo and Somalia were bitter bitter fights between an elephant and an ant. I guess taking on a bunch of lightly armed street thugs is brave. I mean seriously ..... when did 'the brave' actually win a war without help ..... or step up to the plate with the rest of the world to fight a "real" war like WWI and WWII

They ran in Vietnam. They ran in Somalia. They drew Korea. And were THE very LAST country to step foward to Fight the Fight of Freedom in WWI and WWII ...... Well is that brave or guilt, about staying home and hiding under your bedcovers?

Brave??? Huh ..... timid Bullies!!

Hmmm - it seems that the Allies were on the ropes for both of these wars untill the US stepped up to the plate and turned the tables. I lost three uncles in that one. Korea? Korea was too much a UN show. Lost a cousin in that one. Vietnam? The North Vietnamese had burned themselves out during Tet. If the leadership in the White House were stronger, who knows? Lost two more cousins in that one.

I myself was a cold warrior and proud of it. I don't support this current war in Iraq, but I pray for my comrades over there.

Timid bullies? Hardly?At least we didn't kiss Hitler's ass and appease him. The Europeans crafted the Treaty of Versailles that made Hitler's rise to power possible in many ways. And civil liberties? Tony Blair anyone? Rioting in France? How about every time Europe wanted to fight someone, they warmed up on the Jewish enclaves?

I don't really mean to sound like I have anything against you. You see in America, we don't have to like what people say, we do have to tolerate it. It's in this little thing called the Bill of Rights? You have anything like that in the EU nations?

There is a difference between Freedom and getting everything free. My family came here with nothing and we are all doing quite well, thanks. I teach in a school with a lot of Albanians. They ask for nothing but a chance, the kids work hard in school. and they pursue the American Dream with a vengence. One family - in less then 7 years - came from sleeping in our church's emergency apartment to owning several rental properties in our town. And they are beautiful. I can share similiar stories of proud people coming from Africa, South America, and Asia to New London and thriving.

Our social welfare program - the 'dole' has bred the same kind of learned helplessness so many Europeans espouse. There is nothing denied to anyone in this country. You can eat, you can have a place to sleep, you can receive quality education - absolutely free for children. Do you want more? Find a way to earn it. Qualify for jobs that offer better 'perks'. I have outstanding health benefits, a decent salary, and a nice home in a nice neighborhood. Not bad for a kid who ate a lot of government cheese growing up. I have also learned to live BELOW my means - a lesson that many haven't learned

We have a perfect system here. We'll provide the basics. Want more? Earn it. This is the motivational tool that has lifted generations of immigrants from poverty to riches. Sure, I believe in a degree of elitism. But - unlike the titled peers that litter Europe, many of us EARN our status.

Sorry - I forgot some points.

Ireland is looking better indeed. Thank Bill Clinton for that, please.

Somalia, Kosovo, Panama, et al. Where was Europe when things fell apart and thousands of people were being massacred? And, I can tell you that dead is dead - combat is a dangerous business no matter how 'puny' the opposing force may be. To change your metaphor - a mosquito can kill an elephant if that mosquito is carrying something lethal to the elephant. A knife in the back is going to make you just as dead as a smart bomb.

There are a lot of things I've seen that I didn't enjoy. When I look at the results some almost 20 years later, I see that in many ways, we did more good than harm.

Bullies? No, my friend. The gang of thugs slashing children to death with machetes are the bullies. The marauders who rape women are the bullies. Armies that ravage the countryside fighting a war whose meaning becomes secondary - those are thugs. I am more than willing to stand between THOSE thugs and the innocents who are their victims. I know - I've done it often enough. Most of the conflicts you named had NO ecomomic value to the US. Why did we fight? Hmmm - could it be freedom? Could it be for stability? Could it be the fact that the US is the only nation in the world rich enough and powerful enough to do this?

I leave you all to make your decisions... thanks for reading

Sadly the anti social behaviour of a mindless minority in just about any place where humans live leads to problems which require restrictions on the liberties of all to control the misdeeds of the few.

It is a fact of life, whether we like it or not. We can't really enjoy living in a fully free society until we all learn to love and respect each other.

Ah ..... I just cant be bothered with this.

OK .... I submit ..... America is the greatest nation on earth ..... you are demi gods ..... we worship your wonderful country ..... you are perfect people and surely are the pride of our species. Defenders of us poor little countries ..... I submit to how awesome and great your great nation is. Yes you are the best at everything. you have the best health care system .... Your tax system is the best .... you have the best government ..... the greatest military ..... Your food is the best Ive ever tasted
You have the best pay rates in the world ........ You have the best education money can buy .....
Americans have and are now making greater sacrifices for OUR freedom than we could ever make ...... there is no racism in your nation ..... you are Religion tolerant of all religions ...... you dont owe the rest of us 8 trillion dollars in debt ........ the Pres HAS NOT borrowed more than every single Pres put together since Washington ...... you are not a broke fumbling Country. We all need to follow you ..... America ...... like sheeple we are ..... because you are so wonderful!!!

Thanks America !!!! Keep the good work up by sending your lads around the world in our defence!!! Thanks for the sacrifices ..... Because we weaklings would not ..... could not ...... fight like the Lions you are.

I bow humbly and with all humility to you ...... because you are an American. God Bless America!!!! ......

Heres hoping you stay home .... and keep away from our poor weak Nations.

Yes, I believe America to be a free country. Because it is.

No place is perfect. There are many dumb laws in effect. So? Ive been to many countries, and each ahs restrictive, stupid laws in place.

But when I woke up this morning, I did not wake up in fear that the cops would come kicking down my door. I looked over at my 12 gauge shotgun, something I am legally allowed to have to protect my home from all of the scum that might break in and try and hurt me. I logged on the interenet, and was able to choose from many different websites, because we dont have any "banned webites" that are restricted. I read many different criticizms of American society and American politicans, and not a single person ahs been arrested or silenced, at least not legally. I watched court TV and all of the ridiculous cases people bring to lawsuit for everything from libel to damages to murder, because we have a justice system that, for the most part, tries to work.

Another great thing about this country is the power of the states as opposed to federal government. There are very few national laws, and if you dont like the laws in one state, you can move to another and still be in the same country with the same constitution. We still allow all forms of speech, including racist, sexist, and homophobic speech, because no one has the right to silence you because what you say might offend someone.

And of course, we arent taxed out of our skulls without our approval, for the most part.

Ive lived in Europe. They have plenty of restrtive speech and political laws. In some European countries, they even ban certain political parties. Though drinking laws in Europe are lax, taxes are insane, and people seem to have alot less say in the matters. The social systems in Europe are also alot more invasive, and government, education ect are alot more centralized and controlled.

No country is perfect, and America has its problems, but to wonder if its a free country is idiotic. Unless you got the gestapo kicking in your door for no good reason, and you have no recourse to fight back legally, you are in a free country, even if some of the laws are lame.

Laws do change you know.

Originally posted by Amethyst
I think for now our freedom is just an illusion.

A lot of this stuff the government is pulling is basically a way of getting their foot in the door. A lot of people don't seem to care that the Bill of Rights is being trounced on (as long as it doesn't affect them, right?)...but it'll bite you in the rear sooner or later.

Well said and I agree 100%+. Some of you people would not see the truth if it hit you in the face. This poster is right on target! Keep your heads in the sand. And when all comes down. Don't turn to us that knew and say "OMG!, what is happening"?

Let's think of this in a more simplistic way. The Bill Of Right's says we have the right to bare arms. But yet, state by state are electing just the opposite. Those of us that smoke. Took our rights away years ago and getting worse day by day in the area's we are allowed to smoke. Seperation of Church and State. It use to be that way yes. Now if you'll notice they are talking down anything and everything that even resembles a biblical nature from everywhere you look. The VA hospital in my area had an Angel on top about 2 years ago. The City made them take it down due to protest. Although I am of Ralien belief, I still don't have to agree with that. Your right to free speech. OK, must admit, although I am not totally against war itself, I am against the war in Iraq. But, that in itself is a different issue. Look at Cindy Sheehan. A perfect portrate of feedom of speech. But yet they could not wait for the chance to arrest her for a sit in. Just look at all the things we use to take for grated and have full raine over and we don't anymore. Now they can take you house away at the blink of an eye with no far chance just to build something structural that would boost the towns ecomomy. These are just a few of the simple things we don't think about.

Edited due to spelling goof.....

Think about it............

[edit on 12-11-2005 by SkyChild_5]

When the bill of rights came out, they were using muskets and swords. Do we forget how much things have changed since then? There is safety and there is freedom. The two don't always work together. After all, we learned from the wild west, the country shouldn't be a war zone.

Freedom of speech and Free relgion is a different thing I believe. These two things don't get in the way of safety unless you are using that freedom to plot terrorism and murder.

I love this country. I love the fact that we can talk about this right now on the internet (people in some countries can't do) with out having to worry about government enforcers breaking down your door to arrest you. I love the fact that we can joke and make fun of our leaders when they are idiots. I love the fact that there is no forced religion, you are free to believe what you want. Overall, I love freedom and I firmly believe those are the two primary things to a free country, as long as your not abusing that freedom to commit acts of evil.

As a nation grows, things normally change. As long as it changes for the better I am happy. Becoming a safer country is changing for the better IMO.
If the day ever comes that freedom of speech and religion are striped though, believe me, I will be on the front lines.

Why did the colonists suddenly get the thirst for freedom when they arrived on these shores?

Monkey see, monkey do. We Native Americans lived free.

The colonists wanted that. So they rebelled, and tried to imitate our way of life. Read about the Iroquois origins of the US Constitution if you doubt it.

The problem is, they massacred us and hid the survivors away on reservations. Our way of life became invisible to the mainstream.

If you want freedom, weigh every decision with this thought in mind:

Think Indian.

Is America free? ...

Well yes and no ...

I think of our freedoms/limitations as being similar to the situation faced by all responsible adults ... but in the case of our governing limitions ... just the outcome of having to live the reality of minimally invasive consensus driven guidelines.

... after all, silly rules and laws aside (and I have seen some doozies)

case in point ... in one state, there is a law on the books which obviously hearkens back to colonial days ... it goes something like this ... (in certain instances/scenarios) a horse driven cart requires a member of the party to "pace" the wagon while holding forth a red flag of "caution" before it to warn oncoming traffic ....

So silly laws aside ... are we free?

Well some have brought up the point of literal pricing, yet I would argue that in this respect, barring the rise of TRUE COMMUNISM ... no we Americans do not GET THINGS FOR FREE. Plain living costs money no matter your local or ideology.

Can we do literally whatever we want?

Ah, now we hit the root of the problem as I see it ... I would put it this way, Americans are about as "free" as a liberal society of significant numbers can make it while operating within the capacity of relatively efficient human driven beauracracy.

Simply put ...

Can we flap our arms and fly if we wish it?

Well we can flap our our arms but ... fantastastic unreasonable wants do not enter into the equation of reality. (we'll just catch the next flight out haha)

Can we harm others directly (or indirectly) on a whim ...

Self evidently not, the "golden rule", "common sense" and basic human compassion agree with our formalized law. Which brings up the concept limiter for much of what we consider necessary guidelines for reasonable and harmonious cohabitation with our fellow citizens of diverse (and sometimes) opposing views.

The simple idea ... or question that asks, does my want or desire negatively impact the freedoms or wellbeing of my fellow Americans?

So, with this idea, I claim both No and Yes.

No in the sense that no responsible adult is truly free to do literally whatever he or she wants ... but likewise, this same individual does have the freedom to do whatever he or she wants WITHIN the constraints of an adult perview.

Now, I know someone right now after reading this ... may well scoff and say ... but there are many examples of laws and restrictions that do not fit this criteria ... laws that are real and not "value added" societal expediences ...

My answer here is that, yes you are right that there are unpopular rules and laws on the books ... which are hotly debated as I type this ... and these laws do in my opinion restrict more that they should ... and rightly so they are being debated and challenged ...

... but I must make the point, that within the dirversity which is America, we will be wrestling with the notion(s) and implication(s) of consensus vs. the individual in regards to human rights for as long as we exist.

Will we ever get all laws perfectly adjusted and fair in every instance?

I would hazzard the opinion No.

Will we ever stop trying to harmonize our laws with the wants, needs and desires of our diverse society?

In a word, NO.

Simply put, our forefathers did their best to create a charter and set of laws which promote the greatest happiness for the greatest number while trying to maintain the most even handed legal disposition between a wide range of views, perceptions, wants, desires and finally rights.

If we have more laws now, which seem restrictive, I ask you to look at the intent of such a law, what is it trying to do? What is the goal behind the law ... for one thing is certain ... the world of today is MUCH MORE complicated than that of our founding fathers ... the emotions are the same, the basic ideology is the same, but widening perspectives in world view along with the advances of science and technlogy ... open the doors to new possibilities (and of course new dilemnas) ...

Thus when a child asks me Is America Free? (I don't mean this in a derogatory way, I have had nieces and nephews ask me this for school)

I would simply say this:

"We are as free as we can be, given the abilities and desires from of the best of us- who work dilligently on our behalf for our happiness"

Actually they looked puzzled and said collectively ... Okay uncle what does that really mean.

... prompting this...


"
We believe in responsible freedoms ... by this I mean the Golden Rule ...

... or perhaps, walk a mile in anothers shoes ... and before you say "huh"

just take a minute and consider your actions ... and what will happen because of your actions?

Me: Karen, are you hungry now? (its 10:30 am) ...

Karen: Yes, uncle I am ...

Me: What would you say if I offered you a big slice of cake now?

Karen: Wow, can I have one?

Me: Now Karen, what did I say about cause and effect? Have you thought about that?

Karen: errr no ... but I would like a piece of cake ...

Me: You know, so would I ... but have you considered the following:

1. Your mother will work hard to make a good lunch for you in a while, how do you think she would feel if you were not hungry enough to appreciate her hard work?

2. Do you really want to brush you teeth again (family rule)

3. I will be stabbed by your mother for offering you this cake ...

4. If we eat it now, what will be fore dessert tonight?

5. If we eat it now, will there be enough for the rest of the family?

6. In general snacking between meals, is not encouraged ... (more and smaller planned meals are).

So now Karen, with these thoughts in mind ... do you still want the Cake?

Karen: errrrrr .... ummm .... will mom really stab you ...

Me: See this scar here ... and here ... and here ... (rolls eyes)

Karen: Okay uncle ... I see your point ... wow, life is kinda complicated when you grow up ..

Me: Yep, your're learning.




LCKob








[edit on 12-11-2005 by LCKob]

Originally posted by SkyChild_5
Let's think of this in a more simplistic way. The Bill Of Right's says we have the right to bare arms.

[edit on 12-11-2005 by Englishman_in_Spain]

Does this mean you don't have to wear sleeves in your outer garments?

[edit on 12-11-2005 by Englishman_in_Spain]

[edit on 12-11-2005 by Englishman_in_Spain]

"Does this mean you don't have to wear sleeves in your outer garments?"



... only if its a crime against fashion.

Originally posted by Chakotay
Why did the colonists suddenly get the thirst for freedom when they arrived on these shores?

Monkey see, monkey do. We Native Americans lived free.

The colonists wanted that. So they rebelled, and tried to imitate our way of life. Read about the Iroquois origins of the US Constitution if you doubt it.

The problem is, they massacred us and hid the survivors away on reservations. Our way of life became invisible to the mainstream.

If you want freedom, weigh every decision with this thought in mind:

Think Indian.

What I have always failed to understand, is that while I am sure that you are proud of your herritage, much like I am not so proud of mine, you Indians, Black people, and any other race that is not white, seems to hold us, this generation responsible for what our ancesters have done. While I, personally think that it was an astrocity upon your people, any people who where treated as less than human by the white people of generations past, I also know that there is absolutely nothing that I, nor any other member of this generation, or the generation before us could possibly have done to stop that deplorable behavior.

I am teribly sorry that all of that dispicable stuff happened to your races, and was done by members of my own, but, please don't take it out on me, or others of my generation. Not unless certain members of the current generation are currently behaving in such a horrible manner. Then, take it out personally with them.

I am tired of being blamed for things that for one thing, I have never done, and another, if I were to have lived in those unjust times, I believe very strongly that I would not have been a part of it.

We are all here now, no matter what was the origin of us all being here, but I have never judged anyone upon their race, nor treated anyone any different because of it. I only judge people (if judge is the right word), upon their actions, whether they are a kind, caring person, or whether they are an *sshole. And both come in all colors and heritiges. So please, remember that we are in the here and now, and stop blaming us for what we had no control over, and have not done ourselves.

Thank you.

Cyberkat

//ed for this last piece//

Oh, and the current invasion of Iraq, unfortunately, this is of this generation, however, I did not vote for this President, I completely disagree with what he has done, but there was absolutely nothing what-so-ever that I could have done to stop him. I'm sure that you must understand that. I mean all who have been harmed by his reckless actions.

I think that we are only as free as we (a collective nation) allow ourselves to be. We live in a democracy yet as a people we are so split that we rob freedom from ourselves.

Originally posted by SimJazz
I think that we are only as free as we (a collective nation) allow ourselves to be. We live in a democracy yet as a people we are so split that we rob freedom from ourselves.

Great post!

You seem to have summed up the important parts of this thread very well. The question is, what do we do to change this? If we did it to ourselves, we ought to be able to undo it, wouldn't you think?

BTW, I just noticed that you just signed up the same day as you made your post.

Welcome to ATS.

CyberKat

In America, through pressure of conformity, there is freedom of choice, but nothing to choose from.
Peter Ustinov (1921 - 2004)

Thanks to TV and for the convenience of TV, you can only be one of two kinds of human beings, either a liberal or a conservative.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922 - )

I dont think America is a free country, i think that americans are being told too much. not being able to discover things for themselves.
also i think that the privacy of the people is gone zulu. with that i mean that the government has the right to penetrate into your life, and decide wheter or not you could be a possible threat. they are taking it too deep.
(for example the Military and commercial satellites that can give images zo zoomed that they could actually read the paper you are reading...)

The government is one big paranoid mess, they wanna make things so safe and perfect, that the forget about humanity. everything is about the economy. but i also notice the effect it has, i see youth growing up in the states, i see murder being cool. i see violence grow under the youth. is this a problem of the people or a problem of the fact that freedom is just a mask of the truth? i think that freedom is no longer a real word.
By making laws in the first place, we took away freedom.
and this is global. but i see that america is taking it way too far.
i think in a couple of years i should be watching out what you do. cause there might be a satellite in space that has your name on it...

but i also think this post is crap, because i am explaining myself in the wrong way...

I suppose it depends on how you define free, whether 'politically free' or 'economically free'.

When it comes to 'economically free', the US may be in the top ten, but there are other countries where one is free to earn and dispose of his income with much greater freedom; Hong Kong and Singapore come to mind. Although the government doesn't steal quite as much of your property here in the US as it does in the EU countries, we're still not all that economically free.

When it comes to political freedom, I suppose we're about as free to believe and say what we choose as any other place that comes to mind. Certainly I would'nt get locked up by saying that there wasn't a mass extermination of Jews in World War II, as I might in several EU countries. You won't get fined if you refuse to vote, as is the case in places like Australia, IIRC.

If you can think of a country that recognizes more political rights and allows for the exercise of them than the USA, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Of course, the USA is not as free as it could be; just ask any libertarian. And, certainly, people who are on the bottom of the socioeconomic pile here decry the lack of 'freedom'; but I consider that just sour grapes because they aren't as hard-working/smart/lucky/what have you as others.

Nonetheless, that's not an issue of freedom, it's an issue of taking advantage of a society that is pretty much economically free to fail or succeed on your own.

[edit on 20-11-2005 by Off_The_Street]