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Are you good enough to get to Heaven?

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posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 01:17 AM
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.

Yeahright,,, Here is what You were asking For OK......




Can anyone show me biblically in the New Testament with specificity that you are required to accept Christ prior to leaving this mortal plane?


Romans10: 8 But what Does it say? The word is near you; its in your mouth and in your Heart, that is, The word of faith we are Proclaiming; 9; That if you confess with your Mouth, Jesus is lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the Dead, You will be saved. 10; For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that You confess and are saved..........







Although the words "damning" and "condemnation" are used, nowhere in the Scriptures is "condemnation" eternal.

Revelation 21; 8, But the Cowardly, The unbelieving, the Vile, The Murders, the sexually immoral, Those who practice Magic arts, the Idolaters and all Liars -- There place will be in the fiery Lake of Burning Sulfur.
This is the second Death....





All have sinned. All are sinning. All will sin. The whole world is composed of sinners. Christ came to save the whole world.


If You believe that Jesus died on the Cross and that God raised him from Death, the rest will come through (Grace) But if you do not believe what Jesus did for you on the Cross, You just as well give it up...





Salvation (through the Gospel of Jesus Christ), is especially for believers, now, but nowhere do the Scriptures speak of salvation being "exclusive" whereby billions will never be saved at a future time.

Again; If you believe that Jesus went to the cross and died for your sins, and that God did raise Jesus from the dead: You will not go into the Second Death and You will be with Jesus in Paradise always...







1 Tim 4:10- For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE !!!!!!!!



You still have to do your part,,, Jesus will only take who he knows. and if you don't believe, he will leave you here. Because if you don't know him, as he will not know you when the time comes up on the Earth.......




posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 01:23 AM
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It was Adam choice to sin just as it is eveyones that just shows how much our god does loves us b/c though all the sin man has done he still loves us all it is man that turns his back on man and the bible and senice go hand and hand if your really look at it and the bible is just a tool for us to live our dalily lives by but the fact that people that party and stuff would turn away when they r prefectly fine with doing it and not even goin to church you know they has to be something their leading them in that way and yes christian as i am should listen more it makes me sad that more christian turn people away from god instead of bring them to him just b/c they want listen and i want say if anyone is goin to heaven or not for i am not the judge of that Christ is that judge sorry for the inproper eng and spelling i love u all though



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by Smeal
It was Adam choice to sin just as it is eveyones that just shows how much our god does loves us


I don't allow my 3 year old to play in the street. Is it because I have no respect for his free will? No, it's because I know he doesn't appreciate the permanence of such an error and is unable to make an informed decision as a result.

If god actually loved us, he would limit our free will the same way any loving parent limits the free will of a child who is of lower intellect and knowledge. No loving parent, given the ability, would allow a child to cause themselves eternal pain or annihilation.

The god of the Bible is rediculously petty and egocentric - more so than even a limited human parent, yet he is supposedly infinite. If you heard such ...bull...things... as an outsider, you would laugh at it rather than revering it.



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 05:20 AM
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Well I only have one thing to say to this thread...

Arent' we all...



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 05:26 AM
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Well if God sends people to hell for eternity then I'd certainly agree, but I do not believe this is the case.

If God is both willing that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9) and omnipotent then surely we must all be saved.

I mean, how could you be willing to do something and able to do it and not do it?

I haven't yet found anything in the bible that contradicts this view - but if I'm wrong I'd like to be corrected.



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by Simon_the_byron

I haven't yet found anything in the bible that contradicts this view - but if I'm wrong I'd like to be corrected.



Matthew 25:41-46

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron

I haven't yet found anything in the bible that contradicts this view - but if I'm wrong I'd like to be corrected.



Matthew 25:41-46

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


I've read this and it does seem pretty conclusive from the translation, but the original Greek (which I'm more familiar with) paints a different picture.



τοτε ερει και τοις εξ ευωνυμων πορευεσθε απ εμου οι κατηραμενοι εις το πυρ το αιωνιον το ητοιμασμενον τω διαβολω και τοις αγγελοις αυτου

επεινασα γαρ και ουκ εδωκατε μοι φαγειν εδιψησα και ουκ εποτισατε με

ξενος ημην και ου συνηγαγετε με γυμνος και ου περιεβαλετε με ασθενης και εν φυλακη και ουκ επεσκεψασθε με

τοτε αποκριθησονται αυτω και αυτοι λεγοντες κυριε ποτε σε ειδομεν πεινωντα η διψωντα η ξενον η γυμνον η ασθενη η εν φυλακη και ου διηκονησαμεν σοι

τοτε αποκριθησεται αυτοις λεγων αμην λεγω υμιν εφ οσον ουκ εποιησατε ενι τουτων των ελαχιστων ουδε εμοι εποιησατε


και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον


The word translated as everlasting is 'aionion' - which is inaccurate since the word 'aionion' implies a measurable amount of time and everlasting implies immeasurable.

So, basically - I see where you are coming from in your interpretation, but as someone whose mother tongue is Greek I can't fully agree with the translation in this case (although to be fair I don't think there is a word that better translates the word 'aionion' into the English language).

Are there any other references like that one though?



posted on Nov, 20 2005 @ 02:04 AM
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2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"


In Greek, is "everlasting" translated the same in this passage?



posted on Nov, 20 2005 @ 06:28 AM
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It was Adam choice to sin (he new better) ust as it is everyone's that just shows how much our god does loves us


Yes, He wants all to come to him and be saved and be in paradise,,,,,, But its true that if he gives us free will, that means that our chose is what Makes all final thing go with you decision...

I don't allow my 3 year old to play in the street. Is it because I have no respect for his free will? No, it's because I know he doesn't appreciate the permanence of such an error and is unable to make an informed decision as a result.


Well, he will also step in or look over a three year old, but when you get old enough to know right or wrong and You know the deference yes and No, Then he will let you make the decision in you life, (That's Free will)...
Anyone that's thinks that God will catch them every time they jump over the cliff, you are wrong, Adam was smart enough to name every animal in the garden, He should know when he is doing to do something that he was told not to do..

If god actually loved us, he would limit our free will the same way any loving parent limits the free will of a child who is of lower intellect and knowledge. No loving parent, given the ability, would allow a child to cause themselves eternal pain or annihilation.


Is your Dad and Mother still given you room and board, if so, I guess your Mother would still telling you what to do or not..
That's is why most of us are let out of our little jail house and sent out alone to make a life for our self....

We should know most good and bad and between, Yes and no and as most of us was happy when we got sent out on your own and some time you would be real happy if Mom did not have you phone number at times...

Jesus will not give you a ticket to hell just because you made a mistake or if something else that is not right, If you know him and he knows you, You will have enough lead way not to get struck down with lighting for everything you did wrong..

The important thing here is You will know that you did it wrong or walk off with something, knowing it was some ones Else's, as long it isn't happening all day everyday he will let you off (if you know each other)...



posted on Nov, 20 2005 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by jfdarby
Yeahright,,, Here is what You were asking For OK......
Can anyone show me biblically in the New Testament with specificity that you are required to accept Christ prior to leaving this mortal plane?

Romans10: 8 But what Does it say? The word is near you; its in your mouth and in your Heart, that is, The word of faith we are Proclaiming; 9; That if you confess with your Mouth, Jesus is lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the Dead, You will be saved. 10; For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that You confess and are saved..........

1) Doesn't say pre death
2) Doesn't say "saved exclusively"



Although the words "damning" and "condemnation" are used, nowhere in the Scriptures is "condemnation" eternal.

Revelation 21; 8, But the Cowardly, The unbelieving, the Vile, The Murders, the sexually immoral, Those who practice Magic arts, the Idolaters and all Liars -- There place will be in the fiery Lake of Burning Sulfur.
This is the second Death....

Doesn't say it lasts "forever"



All have sinned. All are sinning. All will sin. The whole world is composed of sinners. Christ came to save the whole world.

If You believe that Jesus died on the Cross and that God raised him from Death, the rest will come through (Grace) But if you do not believe what Jesus did for you on the Cross, You just as well give it up...

I'd neve suggest anyone give up. Your viewpoint is widely shared. I just do not think it can be scriptually supported.



1 Tim 4:10- For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE !!!!!!!!

You still have to do your part,,, Jesus will only take who he knows. and if you don't believe, he will leave you here. Because if you don't know him, as he will not know you when the time comes up on the Earth.......


Yes, for those that believe. But not exclusively. I believe that God loves everyone. I believe that it is God's intention that everyone be saved. I do not believe God is a liar, or that God can fail. I do not believe that God, who is the epitome of perfect love, would condemn anyone to eternal damnation and torment. I believe we'll all ultimately end up in the same place, and when we do, it will all make sense to us.

Here's my challenge to you. Take some time off "church". Read the Bible and contemplate it without assistance of a pastor. Some good concentrated, focused study. Maybe with a Strong's Concordance at hand. Let the Word speak to you directly without interference of someone else's perspective. If you still believe what you believe, more power to you. But you certainly must recognize that churches have their own control thing going. I wish you the best.

[edit on 11/20/2005 by yeahright]



posted on Nov, 20 2005 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by jfdarby
Well, he will also step in or look over a three year old, but when you get old enough to know right or wrong and You know the deference yes


To the extent it is within my power, I will also not allow my adult child to engage in activities that will destroy himself. Of course, I'm not omnipotent and omniscient, so I may fail in that regard, but god is, and were he a loving father, would do the same.

Yet not only does biblegod allow it, he himself has sets the consequences to be unfathomably severe, and has intentionally hidden them from discovery by ordinary means so that an informed decision can not even be made (which hinders free will in an evil way). The behavior Christians attribute to god are more appropriately reserved for demons.



posted on Nov, 20 2005 @ 10:19 AM
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I think this thread would've been a lot better had the original post contained a link to a "are you good enough for heaven" test perhaps a really cool flash one




Oooohhhh WAIT

I got it under control!

www.livingwaters.com...



posted on Nov, 20 2005 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by just me 2
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"


In Greek, is "everlasting" translated the same in this passage?


Yes, precisely the same word - but aionios rather than aionion.

I'll give you the background of the word, just so you can see where I'm coming from as a Greek person.

The word in Greek for 'century' is 'aiona,' 'centuries' is 'aiones' - aionion and aionios basically means ~ for an unspecified amount of time/ centuries to come - but it is definitely not an immeasurable amount of time, or 100% correctly translatable as 'everlasting.'



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by Simon_the_byron

I've read this and it does seem pretty conclusive from the translation, but the original Greek (which I'm more familiar with) paints a different picture.



The word translated as everlasting is 'aionion' - which is inaccurate since the word 'aionion' implies a measurable amount of time and everlasting implies immeasurable.




The source I looked at uses the word aionios and says the meaning is eternal, everlasting, for ever, world

e·ter·nal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-tûrnl)
adj.
Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless. See Synonyms at continual.
Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

ev·er·last·ing ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-lstng)
adj.
Lasting forever; eternal.

Continuing indefinitely or for a long period of time.
Persisting too long; tedious: everlasting complaints.

for·ev·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fôr-vr, fr-)
adv.
For everlasting time; eternally: No one can live forever.
At all times; incessantly: was forever complaining about the job.


Looks like it means never ending. The only time a different greek word is used is in Jude 6. Those fallen angels in Jude 6 will be released from their chains during the tribulation period. Otherwise people need to understand that eternity with God means forever and ever and so does eternity without God.



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron

I've read this and it does seem pretty conclusive from the translation, but the original Greek (which I'm more familiar with) paints a different picture.



The word translated as everlasting is 'aionion' - which is inaccurate since the word 'aionion' implies a measurable amount of time and everlasting implies immeasurable.




The source I looked at uses the word aionios and says the meaning is eternal, everlasting, for ever, world

e·ter·nal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-tûrnl)
adj.
Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless. See Synonyms at continual.
Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

ev·er·last·ing ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vr-lstng)
adj.
Lasting forever; eternal.

Continuing indefinitely or for a long period of time.
Persisting too long; tedious: everlasting complaints.

for·ev·er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fôr-vr, fr-)
adv.
For everlasting time; eternally: No one can live forever.
At all times; incessantly: was forever complaining about the job.


Looks like it means never ending. The only time a different greek word is used is in Jude 6. Those fallen angels in Jude 6 will be released from their chains during the tribulation period. Otherwise people need to understand that eternity with God means forever and ever and so does eternity without God.


Your source is inaccurate. Take it from someone whose mother tongue is Greek and has been speaking Greek for the past 20 years on a daily basis.

'aionion/s' does not mean forever.



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Your source is inaccurate. Take it from someone whose mother tongue is Greek and has been speaking Greek for the past 20 years on a daily basis.

'aionion/s' does not mean forever.



Do we know what it meant 2000 years ago?



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 02:48 PM
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Of course, it's still the same word in Modern Greek. Or by that, do you mean the interpretation of the word?

If so, then I think I am better qualified than most to answer this question.

As I have said already in this thread - the background of the word 'aionion' is the word 'aiona/es' or century/ies. 'Aionio(n/s)' simply means for centuries to come, it is a measurable amount of time which is why I believe that 'everlasting' is an inaccurate word to use when translating it.

There is no perfect English word that fully conveys the meaning of 'aionion' as far as I know - but everlasting is definitely inaccurate.



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Of course, it's still the same word in Modern Greek. Or by that, do you mean the interpretation of the word?

If so, then I think I am better qualified than most to answer this question.

As I have said already in this thread - the background of the word 'aionion' is the word 'aiona/es' or century/ies. 'Aionio(n/s)' simply means for centuries to come, it is a measurable amount of time which is why I believe that 'everlasting' is an inaccurate word to use when translating it.

There is no perfect English word that fully conveys the meaning of 'aionion' as far as I know - but everlasting is definitely inaccurate.


I tend to think of Aionion as refering to an arbitrarily large amount of time-- unknowable, but finite.

For example, how long would it take to count every grain of sand in the world? Obviously this is a finite amout of time, but one whose length is not knowable until the task is accomplished.



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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Well if God sends people to hell for eternity then I'd certainly agree, but I do not believe this is the case.


Whether the original Greek word means eternal or a century, (or even just a few minutes) why would you want to go to Hell for ANY length of time?? It will be pretty excruciating regardless of the amount of time you are there. I wouldn’t want to be there for even one SECOND!!



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by just me 2
Whether the original Greek word means eternal or a century, (or even just a few minutes) why would you want to go to Hell for ANY length of time?? It will be pretty excruciating regardless of the amount of time you are there. I wouldn’t want to be there for even one SECOND!!


Where does the Bible say it's excruciating? It speaks of torment, but torment is not the same as torture.

Most of the translations of 'hell' in the Bible are more properly translated 'grave' or 'gehenna' (which is a physical place outside Jerusalem, not a metaphysical place of fire and brimstone).



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