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Why does the Christian God condone torture?

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posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 09:21 AM
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I don't understand this at all.

Most Christians say if you believe in God, AND if you believe in Jesus Christ as God 2 (not too much mention of the Holy Ghost, God 3), you get an eternity in paradise. BUT, if you believe in God, but DON'T believe in Jesusgod, you get a one way ticket to hell, where you are tortured forever.

WTF?!?!

What is the point of torturing someone forever? It's not the excuse our govt uses, to get answers from terrorists. It's not to teach you a lesson, sick as that would be. It's sole purpose is to inflict unfathomable pain on you forever. What is that?

How the HELL can a religion claim to be about love, acceptance, and benevolence when it condemns anyone who doesn't agree with it to eternal torture? I'm sure that, for Christians, the torture you go through in hell makes Abu Ghraib look like a celebrity vacation.

Seriously, what is the point of torturing someone just because they don't believe in Jesusgod? Even if a person lives a virtuous life, if they don't accept Jesus, they might as well have become the next Hitler or George Bush, cuz they're damned anyway. Look at who Dante puts in the first circle of hell in the Inferno.

It doesn't make sense to me that, according to Christians, hell is full to the brim and gets bigger by the day. Face facts, folks; the vast majority of humanity is destined to go to hell. Think of the hundreds of thousands before Christianity and the billions after it hit the scene. That makes perfectly good sense for God to create billions of people over time and send at least 70% of them to hell for eternal torture.



This is a mere sliver of the fate of non-Christians, according to Christians.




posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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Look at it from this perspective, and it will hopefully make more sense.

If you reject God as He is (triune, three parts of the same whole, like points of a triangle) and as He has told us He is, He grants your wish. We here on Earth are surrounded by God at all times. You can't get away from it; at best, you can ignore it. Even that is hard. If you continue to reject Him and ignore Him and His wishes through your life, when your life ends, you get your wish.

Hell has been portrayed as this fiery place of torture and anguish by a lot of the media, but the Bible portrays it differently. Hell is the absence of God. You reject Him, He lets you go where He is not. I've herd one person who was able to scripturally back that the people who go into this place absent of God could still be saved, but continue to reject Him. Unfortunately, I heard that a long while back and don't recall what scriptures were used to support that.

The only time I'm aware of where fire enters the picture is at the end of Revelation.

There's also the theory that, as the Bible states, the wages of sin is death. Through Christ we have forgiveness for all the times we go against God's will. So, by knowing Christ, we have eternal life; by not knowing Him, we are wiped from existence. I don't think that theory holds much water considering Christ's comments about Judas (would have been better for him had he never been born), but it is out there.

So it's not so much that God decides to torture you. He simply grants your wish that He not exist in any manner in your life.



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 09:47 AM
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Really?

Well, what's the deal with fire and brimstone?

And how come damn near every preacher says that you do indeed go to the fiery pits of hell if you are not a Christian. BTW, "eternal damnation" sounds a bit different than "non-existence..."



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 10:12 AM
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"You have voted junglejake for the Above Top Secret Award"

Very nicely explained jake, glad to see someone with the same views, seems clear to me that the Bible is your foundation.


Originally posted by truthseeka
Really?

Well, what's the deal with fire and brimstone?

And how come damn near every preacher says that you do indeed go to the fiery pits of hell if you are not a Christian. BTW, "eternal damnation" sounds a bit different than "non-existence..."


Like Jake said, a lot of people seem to mix up Hell with the Lake of Fire at the end of Tribulation, perhaps they do so on purpose to scare others into joining their religon.

If your an honest man that follows God and his word then there is NO need for forcing people to believe something, that completely goes against what God wants.

Read the Bible without bias and I promise you'll find that very many things you heard from various preachers and religon pushers aren't exactly accurate.



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 10:18 AM
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As I said, I don't buy the non-existence theory.

There is reference to the fire of Hell in the Bible. Matthew 18:9 mentions it, As does Mark. Revelation 20:10 states, "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." It appears Hell is a fiery place, but why?

It is clear that Hell is the absence of God...But what is life and a world like without God there? We have no way of knowing; everything we know of today is surrounded by His presence. It could be that, without God, morality does not exist, and people torture one another. Satan and his minions may reign supreme since it is the most powerful, and not righteous, who would hold sway away from God.

It is a world where God says, essentially, you don't want me, fine, you don't have to have me. Have a good time. It doesn't say anywhere that Hell is your own kingdom; it is a place where all those who have rejected God get to enjoy, from Satan to the final anti-Christ, and everyone in between. Without God, without any morality beyond survival of the fittest, it would be a pretty nasty place.

EDIT:

"You have voted junglejake for the Above Top Secret Award"

Very nicely explained jake, glad to see someone with the same views, seems clear to me that the Bible is your foundation.


That showed up while I was writing this response...Wish you could take that back?


[edit on 11-2-2005 by junglejake]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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Why does the Christian God condone torture?
Either the fact that the Christian God does NOT exist (my own personal view) or, using Biblical scripture as the source, the Christian God is not the benevolent entity that Christians portray.
Reading the bible we find that God not only condones torture but also
rape (Isaiah 13:15-16),
Wholesale slaughter of innocents (Deuteronomy 2:34),
cannibalism (Deuteronomy 28:53)(Deuteronomy 28:57),
slavery (Leviticus 25:44 , KJV) (Exodus 21:5-6),
adultery (II Samuel 12:11),
abortion (Numbers 5:27-28)
Human Sacrifice (Exodus 22:29)

To name but a few.


G



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 10:31 AM
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Of course not, I still agree with you, Hell for all I know may very well be fiery, but someone show me a scripture describing or relating to Hell being an eternal toture chamber for the humans that God created in his own image.

[edit on 11/2/2005 by JKersteJr]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by shihulud
Why does the Christian God condone torture?
Either the fact that the Christian God does NOT exist (my own personal view) or, using Biblical scripture as the source, the Christian God is not the benevolent entity that Christians portray.
Reading the bible we find that God not only condones torture but also
rape (Isaiah 13:15-16),
Wholesale slaughter of innocents (Deuteronomy 2:34),
cannibalism (Deuteronomy 28:53)(Deuteronomy 28:57),
slavery (Leviticus 25:44 , KJV) (Exodus 21:5-6),
adultery (II Samuel 12:11),
abortion (Numbers 5:27-28)
Human Sacrifice (Exodus 22:29)

To name but a few.


G




Nice way to take the scripture out of context, you make the same mistake so many others make, you are reading the book too literally, and I think that by reading the below scripture, at least someone else will be able to clearly realize that.

Deuteronomy 28:53
And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

This excerpt has NOTHING to do with cannibalism...

There is a higher power that condones and encourages toture/rape/etc....but its not God.

[edit on 11/2/2005 by JKersteJr]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 11:24 AM
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Nice way to take the scripture out of context, you make the same mistake so many others make, you are reading the book too literally, and I think that by reading the below scripture, at least someone else will be able to clearly realize that.

Thats YOUR interpretation of the text, what about this one?

"And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates."(Deuteronomy 28:57)
The same style of text as Deu 28:53 but states the eating of children.

What about the rest of them slavery,adultery etc?



There is a higher power that condones and encourages toture/rape/etc....but its not God.

Yes I know its Satan (Gods name when he wants to be evil) for God is the creator of evil (II Samuel 12:11 and I Kings 14:10 )(I Samuel 16:23)(I Samuel 19:9)


G



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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Very well put, Jake.



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 11:29 AM
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First let me state there is no physical place called hell that is a doctrine of man.

Hell simply means the grave any Christian knows this. If you heard a Christian say there is a Hell or eternal suffering he is just simply mistaken and miss informed.

The God of the Bible is a Loving God. If you would read a Bible (kjv) you will see the wicked and the evil will be destroyed at the end and the righteous will be walking on their ashes! Evil and death will cease to exist; the righteous will have access to the tree of life. Yes, it is that simple.



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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shihulud, why do you hate Christianity so much? You claim to not believe in it, yet actively try to attack it by taking things out of context (Deu 28:57, for example, where it's talking about what one wants to do when starving to death during a siege, not what one is commanded to do
), twisting information and words, etc. in order to convince people that it is wrong? Why, if it is so wrong, can't you fight it fairly, instead of twisting information, manipulating it, in order to serve your goal? Are you that afraid that it has a much, much better case than you do when you fight it on fair ground?



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 11:31 AM
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If you want to read those scriptures literally and draw the conclusion that God condones rape/slavery and cannibalism then that is your opinion, I wont argue with you and I'm not going to push my beliefs.

However IMHO you are mistaken, you are reading something that could probably to some point be proven allegory and translating it in literal terms. You have to know the WHOLE story before you try and debunk parts of it or you run the severe risk of taking things out of context.

[edit on 11/2/2005 by JKersteJr]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch
First let me state there is no physical place called hell that is a doctrine of man.

Hell simply means the grave any Christian knows this. If you heard a Christian say there is a Hell or eternal suffering he is just simply mistaken and miss informed.

The God of the Bible is a Loving God. If you would read a Bible (kjv) you will see the wicked and the evil will be destroyed at the end and the righteous will be walking on their ashes! Evil and death will cease to exist; the righteous will have access to the tree of life. Yes, it is that simple.


Er...what was Jesus talking about when He said, "And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." (Matt 18:9)? Was He lying? What about when He said, "But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matt 5:22). The fire of hell doesn't exist, and Christ was just joking around with folks?



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Er...what was Jesus talking about when He said, "And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." (Matt 18:9)? Was He lying? What about when He said, "But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matt 5:22). The fire of hell doesn't exist, and Christ was just joking around with folks?


Being still early in my quest for salvation and having not read the entirity of the scriptures, I have to say that excerpts like this just dont make full sense in my head, of course I haven't even started reading the New Testament yet. So Jake, I know you quoted this particular verse to show God referring Hell as a consequence for sinning, I understand that much. But am I supposed to take the eye gouging stuff word for word and read it in a literal sense? Have you ever glanced at someone else's wife or used either of your eyes for sin? Do you still have both of them?



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by junglejakeEr...what was Jesus talking about when He said, "And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." (Matt 18:9)? Was He lying? What about when He said, "But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matt 5:22). The fire of hell doesn't exist, and Christ was just joking around with folks?


...How do you think death and evil will be destroyed??? Hmmmmm... THEY will be consumed by fire and they will be burned up. Game Set and Match; Game Over; End Game; Thee end...

Please JJ, let go of that doctrine of man.

I already know how this story ends. You will reply with more verses and I will have to answer you again and again... etc..



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by Junglejake
shihulud, why do you hate Christianity so much?

I dont hate Christianity itself. I hate the premise of Christianity, the prohibition, the restrictions and the censorship. Also the "were right your wrong" and the "If you dont believe your going to hell" attitude. How anyone can read the bible or go to church and then state quite matter of factly that Christianity is the truth when there is two sides to every story, and the other side states that christianity is wrong.
Why do you love Christianity so much?



You claim to not believe in it, yet actively try to attack it by taking things out of context (Deu 28:57, for example, where it's talking about what one wants to do when starving to death during a siege, not what one is commanded to do
), twisting information and words, etc. in order to convince people that it is wrong? Why, if it is so wrong, can't you fight it fairly, instead of twisting information, manipulating it, in order to serve your goal? Are you that afraid that it has a much, much better case than you do when you fight it on fair ground?

Firstly I never said God commanded people to eat their kids only that God condoned the eating of children. Secondly I do fight fair, all I'm doing is showing everyone that biblical texts can be taken more than one way and also that whatever evidence you can put forward to make your point I can find other evidence in the bible or otherwise to counter your claims. If you claim this is unfair then dont play, is that not what a debate is about?


Originally posted by JKersteJr
If you want to read those scriptures literally and draw the conclusion that God condones rape/slavery and cannibalism then that is your opinion, I wont argue with you and I'm not going to push my beliefs. However IMHO you are mistaken, you are reading something that could probably to some point be proven allegory and translating it in literal terms.

So what your saying is these scriptures are allegorical and not true in the literal sense. By that same token I could say that the ressurection of Christ is not to be taken literally but as another parable. In fact the whole biblical story could be taken as allegory. And you claim I'm the one who takes things out of context?



G



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch
...How do you think death and evil will be destroyed??? Hmmmmm... THEY will be consumed by fire and they will be burned up. Game Set and Match; Game Over; End Game; Thee end...

Please JJ, let go of that doctrine of man.

I already know how this story ends. You will reply with more verses and I will have to answer you again and again... etc..


I think I know what your getting at here Game, the fire part doesn't necessarily mean thats what you will suffer in hell for eternity but what you will suffer here on earth in the final judgement.

5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Now tell me, couldn't hell fire and fire of hell be understood 2 completely different ways, the latter suggests that hell is actually a place or a source of the fire. The scripture doesn't really convey it like such does it?



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by JKersteJrI think I know what your getting at here Game, the fire part doesn't necessarily mean thats what you will suffer in hell for eternity but what you will suffer here on earth in the final judgement.


Amen!


Now tell me, couldn't hell fire and fire of hell be understood 2 completely different ways, the latter suggests that hell is actually a place or a source of the fire. The scripture doesn't really convey it like such does it?
Correct; I do not even need to say anything here; you already understand!



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch
...How do you think death and evil will be destroyed??? Hmmmmm... THEY will be consumed by fire and they will be burned up. Game Set and Match; Game Over; End Game; Thee end...

Please JJ, let go of that doctrine of man.

I already know how this story ends. You will reply with more verses and I will have to answer you again and again... etc..


Yep
Especially considering you're not even quoting scripture, but eluding to it


Revelation 21:8 states: But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Second death would imply that there was a first death and a period in between. Now, it appears as though the second death is final. Satan and his minions are also cast into the lake of burning sulfer...Yet, Revelation 20:7 states, "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison " So...does the fiery lake of burning sulfur really end their existence, and if so, how is it referred to as a prison from which someone inside can be released?

I'm sorry, GameSetMatch. I appreciate your efforts to correct what you think is a wrong interpretation, and I do enjoy these conversations as I often learn quite a bit through them, but I will not change my mind on an interpretation of scripture just because someone tells me to and calls it a doctrine of man. If you want to convince me my interpretation is wrong, then yes, we will have a back and forth. It's not unprecidented that I change my mind; my views today on scripture are vastly different than what I believed just a year ago. As I've read the Bible, discussed its interpretation with friends and folks here on ATS (whom I consider friends, as well
) and gotten deeper and deeper into the Word, misconceptions I used to hold started to lose any ground to stand on.

JKersteJr, I used that example because it was the first thing that came up when searching, and was explicit. As to gouging my eyes out, nope, haven't done that. It's an ironic statement. If you love God enough to be willing to do something so drastic to your body to serve Him better, you are probably not doing it anymore because you love God enough to reject the behavior. Is it better to not sin than sin? You bet. Thankfully, because we do sin, Christ died as the ultimate sin sacrifice for us to grant us forgiveness.



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