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CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret "Black Site" Prisons

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posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
I see this as good news. It’s about time my government grew a spine and used its resources to fight these terrorists using methods the terrorists understand: Violence and torture.
...




unfotunately, once they start doing all that to you and your people i will not feel any satisfaction in predicting all that, a child could see what's coming and it's just so sad that this world had to go down this path.

if you shok&aw guys really mean what you say you are imo irretrievably lost.

PS: for the record: you can catch the terrorist, try him, then have him shot or hanged, whatever you please, but clandestinely abducting people, even if most of them are terrorists seriously questions the role of the states. no system is infallible, we NEVER ever heard of anybody released from these CCs, so these are death camps, who's in them doesn't matter, since the only thing they cause is fear of the west and ice cold hate, not just in muslims. who's next? who knows. if it's secret, you're asking for it, nobody forgave nazi germany, you know.




posted on Nov, 6 2005 @ 05:31 PM
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I fully support secret prisons for terror suspects, and fully support torture under the right circumstances, such as extracting time critical information (ie - a nuke will go off in 72 hours, but the prisoner has information about it).

Frankly, these people wouldn't be in these secret prisons if they were harmless innocent civilians.



posted on Nov, 7 2005 @ 04:19 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
I fully support secret prisons for terror suspects, and fully support torture under the right circumstances, such as extracting time critical information (ie - a nuke will go off in 72 hours, but the prisoner has information about it).

OK - its War.

So Both sides are allowed to follow the same rules of the Game.

One of the US soldiers is Captured by the Insurgents, and they want to "Extract Information" about the next Assault.

Does that give them the Right to do whatever they want with him, in order to "Extract the Information"?

Or is that Priviledge EXCLUSIVLY reserved for USA and CIA?



posted on Nov, 7 2005 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
OK - its War.

So Both sides are allowed to follow the same rules of the Game.


I would like to point out right here that it is the muslim terrorist side which follows absolutely NO rules.


One of the US soldiers is Captured by the Insurgents, and they want to "Extract Information" about the next Assault.

Does that give them the Right to do whatever they want with him, in order to "Extract the Information"?

Or is that Priviledge EXCLUSIVLY reserved for USA and CIA?


Again Souljah, the only reason the US would need to do any such extracting is because this isn't a normal war where the targets are military.

I am not saying this is something that should be used liberally, I am saying that there are situations it should be. Such as a nuke going off in a US city.

These are terror attacks. They aren't troops attacking other troops. If the US were fighting a normal war where US soldiers were the targets, and our enemies followed the rules of war, then there would be no use for such a practice.

Unfortunately we are fighting radical Islamic terrorist scum. They want to kill INNOCENT people, not the soldiers involved in the war.

ON TOP OF THAT, THE PEOPLE WE FIGHT ALREADY DON'T CARE IF THEY TORTURE PEOPLE OR NOT, THEY AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE, SO WHY SHOULD WE RESTRICT OURSELVES?

Why should a million+ people die in NYC because some sicko terrorist can't be tortured?

And even beyond that, grunts in the US military know jack # about the plans of their superiors, so unless they get some mid-high ranking officer (As if that would ever happen) it would be torture for the fun of it, not to get any information.

[edit on 7-11-2005 by American Mad Man]



posted on Nov, 7 2005 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
I would like to point out right here that it is the muslim terrorist side which follows absolutely NO rules.

I would like to Point Out right here, that we have very different Opinions about the Start of this war, and that is why we can not come togather on none of the topics.



Again Souljah, the only reason the US would need to do any such extracting is because this isn't a normal war where the targets are military.

Actually this is the New Age of Warfare - the Warfare that was created by the USA Invasion of Iraq. Sadly it is a kind of warfare that actually Works against hi-tech Army, and will be used in the Future on a bigger scale.



Unfortunately we are fighting radical Islamic terrorist scum. They want to
kill INNOCENT people, not the soldiers involved in the war.

Here is shown again, the basis of our dis-agreement.

I do not belive that Islamic Terrorist Scum started this War.

Alone.

This goes far DEEPER then You and I can ever Imagine.

This is not so EASY and BLACK&WHITE as you see it.

Sorry, but I do not belive all the 9-11-Terrorists-Crashed-into-WTC-that-why-it-Collapsed-MumboJumbo.

I think the Rabbit Hole goes Much, MUCH Deeper then that...



Why should a million+ people die in NYC because some sicko terrorist can't be tortured?

Because he is Innocent but still Tortured?

Hell, who cares anyway.

One Less Muslim.



posted on Nov, 7 2005 @ 08:27 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Actually this is the New Age of Warfare - the Warfare that was created by the USA Invasion of Iraq. Sadly it is a kind of warfare that actually Works against hi-tech Army, and will be used in the Future on a bigger scale.


OK, well, since these terrorists are wrighting the rules and show no mercy, mercy should not be expected of us?

I mean, they wouldn't drag our guys to secret prisons, they'd kill them on the spot.

Works? 2000 dead in almost 3 years. It isn't working AT ALL.




Here is shown again, the basis of our dis-agreement.

I do not belive that Islamic Terrorist Scum started this War.


That's fine, you're wrong though



This goes far DEEPER then You and I can ever Imagine.

This is not so EASY and BLACK&WHITE as you see it.


Ohhh believe me, I am all about shades of grey. I know all the angles, and actually believe some (maybe even most?) of them have some merit.


Sorry, but I do not belive all the 9-11-Terrorists-Crashed-into-WTC-that-why-it-Collapsed-MumboJumbo.


Yeah, I figured you wouldn't believe that - it goes against your "muslims never do any wrong" theory.


I think the Rabbit Hole goes Much, MUCH Deeper then that...


It does - we are going to systematically terminate all terrorists.



Because he is Innocent but still Tortured?


But this is the "new" age of war. Souljah. The no rules kind where everyone is a target no matter how innocent they are. Just ask your terrorist friends.

Besides, I stipulated that torture should only be used in dire circumstance. If it could possably save 1 million + lives, well, I'm sorry - that guy is just gunna have to deal with it.


Hell, who cares anyway.

One Less Muslim.


I never knew you were such a bigot towards Muslims - what turned you from your previous stance?

I demand a mod warn Souljah for his blatant bigotry!



posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
I fully support secret prisons for terror suspects, and fully support torture under the right circumstances, such as extracting time critical information (ie - a nuke will go off in 72 hours, but the prisoner has information about it).

Frankly, these people wouldn't be in these secret prisons if they were harmless innocent civilians.


but why secretly? i don't understand, people will understand if they get to know know what's going on and why. secrecy in the wrong spot is a boomerang, which invites conspiracy theories and rightly so, is there one single reason to keep everything secret for more than 10 days? additionally, these camps certainly cost a lot of money, it'd be easier and cheaper, to try them in court, therefore creating a legal basis (proof is abundant i hope) to do exactly the same as now, while receiving much less flak and without creating fear and suspicion all around the world.


imagine another country started a similar program, the west would be up in arms!

0.02c



posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 04:44 AM
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Hmmmm...

If it is Allrighty to torture prisoners, why does then

Pentagon Plans Tighter Control of Interrogation



WASHINGTON, Nov. 7 - The Pentagon has approved a new policy directive governing interrogations as part of an effort to tighten controls over the questioning of terror suspects and other prisoners by American soldiers.

The eight-page directive, which was signed without any public announcement last Thursday by Acting Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon R. England, will allow the Army to issue a long-delayed field manual for interrogators that is supposed to incorporate the lessons gleaned from the prisoner-abuse scandals last year.

The Army intends, for example, to ensure that interrogation techniques are approved, up to the highest levels in the Pentagon, that interrogators are properly trained and that personnel in the field are required to report any abuses, Army officials said.

President Bush, in remarks in Panama City after meeting with President Martín Torrijos of Panama, sought to deflect recent reports of detainee mistreatment and secret interrogation sites around the world. "Our country is at war, and our government has the obligation to protect the American people," Mr. Bush said. "Anything we do to that end, in that effort, any activity we conduct, is within the law. We do not torture." (WHAT A HYPOCRITE!!! :lol)

"Acts of physical or mental torture are prohibited," says the directive, a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times. The policy directive does not elaborate other than to order that detainees be treated humanely "in accordance with applicable law and policy."

Source:
New York Times

I wonder how is AMM going to Explain that....




posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by Long Lance
but why secretly? i don't understand, people will understand if they get to know know what's going on and why. secrecy in the wrong spot is a boomerang, which invites conspiracy theories and rightly so, is there one single reason to keep everything secret for more than 10 days?


There are plenty of reasons to hide prisoners at secret locations, and do so indefinatly.

Say you capture OBL (just an example). Do you really want to broadcast to the world that you have him?

No. You want to keep it quiet. You don't want a rash of terror outbreaks in an attempt to blackmail his release. You don't want a prison break to be planned. You want to be able to use any information extracted against other terrorists. If they know he is captured, they know eberything he knew was compromised.


additionally, these camps certainly cost a lot of money, it'd be easier and cheaper, to try them in court, therefore creating a legal basis (proof is abundant i hope) to do exactly the same as now, while receiving much less flak and without creating fear and suspicion all around the world.


These camps cost a [ifraction of what a civilian one costs.

In addition, most terrorists we have are not under civilian juristiction, but the juristiction of the armed services. In addition, it is also MUCH more costly to try them in a civilian court.


imagine another country started a similar program, the west would be up in arms!


you don't think other countries have secret prisons where they put hig value political prisoners?


The difference is that no one talks about them, because they are not the almighty Satan America.



posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 06:07 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
I wonder how is AMM going to Explain that....


Explain what? That Bush says we do not torture? That is fine, he is our democratically elected leader, and it is his job (along with the other 2 branches of the federal government) to set US policy.

I personally think that there are times where the ends justify the means.

If the torture of a terrorist can potentially save countless civilian lives, well, I think that option has to be open.

My personal thoughts have nothing to do with those of Bush or US policy.



posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
..


you don't think other countries have secret prisons where they put hig value political prisoners?


The difference is that no one talks about them, because they are not the almighty Satan America.



one word: 'rendition'

those other nations aren't taking people off the streets of foreign nations (only case i currently know of happened in Italy), and if they did, they'd do so at their own risk, wouldn't they? don't get me wrong, i'm not a friend of euro-style softball game, but imagine what such an action looks like if you don't have any background information? that's an accident waiting to happen, obviously, what if a crowd tried to stop them or even lynch a 'rendition'-team (rendition basically looks like simple kidnapping, doesn't it?) they would have to shoot, i can already see the headlines.

this program is not going to build confidence, because it effectively renders everybody dependant on the mercy and judgement of people no one knows, who were never legitimized in any way that's compliant with a Republic's proceedings.

PS: as for holding people indefintitely, there are many ways to justify questionable practices, but you've got to draw the line somewhere. something might happen if people knew, well, who knows what happens if they don't? i'm not sure about the price tag either, tbh, of course, there's no way to know, since it's all secret...



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 07:32 AM
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Even if Pentagon Plans Tighter Control of Interrogation (read my Post Above)...

...Rumsfeld CAN Authorize exceptions to new "humane" interrogation directive



WASHINGTON (AFP) - US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld can authorize exceptions to a new Defense Department policy on military interrogations that bars torture and calls for "humane" treatment of detainees, a spokesman said.

The new directive lays out broad policy governing interrogations of detainees in Defense Department custody, but leaves the definition of "humane" to a separate, yet to be released directive that is still being debated within the administration.

A little noticed loophole in the directive, which was made public Tuesday, gives the secretary of defense or his deputy authority to override the policy.

"Intelligence interrogations will be conducted in accordance with applicable law, this directive and implementing plans, policies, orders, directives, and doctrine developed by DoD components and approved by USD (I), unless otherwise authorized, in writing, by the secretary of defense or deputy secretary of defense," the directive states. "USD (I)" refers to the undersecretary of defense for intelligence.

Yahoo! News

So, whats the Point of the "New Humane Interrogation Directive"?

Just to FOOL the population and to give the Media something "Good" to write about for a change, when talking about US Detention Camps?

Seriously - who are they KIDDING?




posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 07:54 AM
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The very thought that the US is holding people in Europe in detention camps - or whatever the euphemism of the day is when describing these facilities - is one that sends a shiver down my back. I think that this is a very simple point of principle. Torture - which can be physical or mental - is wrong. It sends out the message that the person being tortured is less than nothing, that he or she is no longer a human being. The Nazis loved torture, as anyone who had read history can attest to.
The thought of the USA, a country that I admire deeply, descending to the same theoretical level as Himmler and his murderous thugs at Prinzalbrechtstrasse is one that sickens me.
Yes, terrorists torture - but that does not give those who fight them the right to descend to their sickening level. We're better than that.


Ram

posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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I think the problem - Oh heck! - im sorry to interrupt - But i just see something in this thread...
I see a sick world trying hard to make sense.. Well some of us thinks we need no violence..And some others think - We need violence sometimes..

Oh heck! that is some difference isnt it?

It's like the Buddisme... No violence...

These buddist monks must have had a strong believe i think...Since they saw theire brothers and sisters get killed - cut out theire eyes and..so on..

Thats a law!... Thats a law that was broken -by someone else..Some other country...


Now some of you say/write that it would be okay to torture people... Cause of the risk of an atomic bomb!!! Nukecase bombs.
Some say it's okay to torture...

Well i say... You just don't think it's okay under these sircumstances - I really think deep in your hearts... You think it would make you feel better...inside...
Maybe it will.. make you feel good to know that people - are gettting killed and somehow dissapears..Maybe in the desert - Or just burned...On spot.

I think Mr.Bush and the company - Has made you sick people get a kick out of it... Like enjoyment..Why don't we have a torture party.. Ahh?

You see - They shaped your mind...!!! So you would actually feel happy if they torture these possible suspect people...

I just love this planet... All you hecking animals... Love death as much as the enemy...

That is the problem. And you will never get over it..
-------------------------------------------------------------------
IT's VERY IMPORTANT THAT SOMEONE TRIES TO FIND OUT IF THERE IS A LIE GOIN ON HERE!!!
Planet's on countdown - this is not a football match!

[edit on 11-11-2005 by Ram]



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.


And we can only Imagine what is the Real Truth...

[edit on 2/11/05 by Souljah]


Like the real truth that the other side either puts a couple of rounds in the back of the head with an Kalashnakov or just removes their head completely with a dull blade increasing the suffering. Why not ask Daniel Pearl which he would prefer. Secret prison or beheading? I am pretty sure he would take the secret prison option.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 01:36 PM
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The weakest part of the argument in favor of torture (can you even believe that there are people out there who would MAKE such a twisted argument?) is that there's absolutely no evidence that torture is the only or even the best method to obtain information from "bad guys".

When you combine the fact that we are holding people without charging them with anything, in secret prisons, in secret locations, then torturing them, you realize that this policy comes from a basic laziness, or perhaps unwillingness to do the real work of intelligence to find out this information without becoming what we most hate.

The same thing applies to the War in Iraq. In the 90's we learned that a regime as massive and seemingly intractable as the Soviet Union could be brought down without a shot being fired, so why couldn't we believe that we could get a madman like Saddam out of power without squandering the lives of over 2000 Americans, countless innocent Iraqis, and America's reputation in the world? It comes down to laziness, and the desire to create a situation where the US was easier to govern for the corporate interests that really call the shots for George Bush, the most miserable excuse for a leader we've had in 75 years.


Ram

posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by vuoto
The weakest part of the argument in favor of torture (can you even believe that there are people out there who would MAKE such a twisted argument?) is that there's absolutely no evidence that torture is the only or even the best method to obtain information from "bad guys".


I see that some really does make argument's.
Somewhat i think i originally come from another planet - more peacefull - and everyone understands everyone.. Everybody knows everybody..

We have to believe that some people actually does make such twisted arguments... And i think some leaders would love to see these people doing the torture job.. They seems fit for fight... Ay?
Give them a good pay check and they will cut anyones head off..Or cut someones fingers..just to make a buck..
But offcourse we would first have to brainwash theire simpel mindset into a feeling of being proud of what they do.. By blowing up things around the globe.. In an also kinda secret movement. They need to make sense.. They need some reason to torture or go too war..Don't they?

They even need some reason to make arguments... like this.

It's been going on for ever...In human history... And we never really tried to have peace... Well..
Peace is the hardest thing to create isn't it.. Especially if your guided by primal intinct.. Like animals have... Predators and so on. There is no way - People like that, can use...Any higher feelings than primal intincts if you put them in a position of Brainwash like Hitler did back then.
Oh i remember - i hate that word "brainwash" - Lets call it Media influence..

Let me say this - They are turning on our Primal fear... Atleast they are trying very hard. And that is dynamite...

[edit on 11-11-2005 by Ram]



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 07:01 PM
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Update!


ABC News

Thahee Sabbar and Sherzad Khalid are two of eight men who, with help from the American Civil Liberties Union and the group Human Rights First, are suing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. The men claim they were tortured for months, in violation of the U.S. Constitution and international law.

Torture has been the center of controversy lately. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. — himself a victim of torture during the Vietnam War — has sparked a heated debate after his proposed amendment to ban torture was reportedly the subject of intense lobbying by Vice President Dick Cheney, who sought an exemption for CIA officers.

When asked about it, President Bush said, "Our country is at war, and our government has the obligation to protect the American people … Any activity we conduct, is within the law. We do not torture."

Khalid told ABC News that U.S. soldiers at one point threatened him with live lions. Inside the Republican Palace — the site of Saddam's former office — Sabbar says troops taunted him with a mock execution.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



New York Times - Iraq Inquiry Says Detainees Appear to Have Been Tortured

Iraqi and U.S. officials disclosed Tuesday that more than 170 malnourished Iraqi detainees had been found in a weekend raid at an Interior Ministry detention center and that some appeared to have been tortured.

U.S. and Iraqi forces discovered the inmates when they went into the facility suspecting that individuals there may have been mistreated, the Pentagon said.

A Sunni politician said the prisoners were Sunni Arabs and accused the Shiite-led government of long ignoring the abuse.

Coalition forces ''found things that concerned them,'' Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said. He did not say when the inmates were found, but U.S. troops took control of the Interior Ministry building on Sunday.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said Iraqi authorities were investigating what happened and that the detainees had been moved to a better location and given medical care.

''I was informed that there were 173 detainees held at an Interior Ministry prison and they appear to be malnourished. There is also some talk that they were subjected to some kind of torture,'' al-Jaafari told reporters. extra DIV



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 05:48 AM
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(Groan) That is even more depressing. The US and UK went into Iraq, at least claiming to be doing it for noble reasons, and then two and a half years on this turns up. Add on the use of white phosperus (is there a thread on this yet?) and you have the makings of a PR disaster. Why, Iraqis will be saying, should we trust you lot? I read the editorial page of the Independent today, and it had an editorial that started off:


Leading article: President Bush is betraying the founding values of his nation
The bitter taste is left of an administration whose response is to deny first and concede later - only when found out
Published: 17 November 2005
Outlawed weapons and lies about them. Hidden prisons and torture chambers. Human beings in cages. Captives who "disappear". This was Saddam Hussein's Iraq, was it not, and the justification for war? Two and a half years after the invasion, to the eternal shame of the occupiers, it is increasingly the new Iraq as well.

We are observing what must be the worst week for the reputation of the joint United States and British adventure since the revelations of abuse at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison. Any hopes in Washington or London that the battle for Iraqi hearts and minds might yet be won have been thoroughly demolished.


Unfortunately the rest of it is only available online if you are a paid up subscriber. It's very good. It's also as depressing as hell. Here's the link for those with access: comment.independent.co.uk...

To come back to the torture issue, I think that we are losing sight of two important issues. Firstly, we are better than the terrorists. We have a belief in the causes and ideals that underpin a liberal, non-theocratic, democracy. The US has the Constitution, the UK has a set of laws and checks and balances that are based on those beliefs. Torture is hideous, violent and deprives people of their rights to be treated fairly. It is wrong, people. We aren't talking about something that should be debated here. The Nazis tortured. Stalin's thugs tortured. We are better than that.
Secondly, there are other methods of getting information in an emergency. Truth drugs are available, that can have the hardest terrorist singing like a bird. I don't like the idea, but that's better than crushing someone's fingers with a pair of pliers.



posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 08:17 AM
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United Press International

BRUSSELS, Nov. 15 (UPI) -- Just when the United States thought the transatlantic row over possible Central Intelligence Agency terrorist detention camps in Europe had blown over, the European Parliament followed the Council of Europe's decision to launch an investigation into the allegations by holding a rowdy debate on the issue Monday.

Washington-based advocacy group Human Rights Watch caused a diplomatic storm earlier this month by publishing flight records showing that a CIA-commissioned Boeing 737 transported suspected al-Qaida terrorists from Afghanistan and Iraq to Poland and Romania in 2002 and 2003. The allegations were corroborated by a Washington Post story that revealed details of eight "black sites" -- as the covert prisons are referred to in classified White House and CIA documents -- in South Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

Fresh allegations are putting more pressure on the Pentagon -- and EU governments -- to come clean about the affair. The New York Times reported Monday that Spanish police have opened a criminal investigation into reports that Majorca was used as a stopover for CIA planes transporting terrorist suspects to internment camps. And according to Swedish news agency TT, at least two airplanes hired by the agency have landed at Swedish airports.

"We all feel solidarity with the victims of terrorism," said Portuguese center-right deputy Carlos Coelho, "But every step must be taken in respect to fundamental human rights and the rule of law." Baroness Sarah Ludford, a Liberal legislator from Britain, launched a scathing attack on the American government, saying it had made "disappearances a U.S. tactic." The war on terror, Ludford stated, had opened the "blackest of black holes."


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Even More Heat coming from the Europe.

Actually some Pressure on Pentagon & CIA this time.



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