My Tarot Theory

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posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 10:31 AM
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I have posted part of this before but not my theory behind this.

I want to post a theory here that came to mind when I was reading Valhall's thread on Rennes. many years I studied as Val and many others have the conspiracy of the secret societies going back in time and trying to unravel the real truth the real story. I didn't want to interfere anymore than I have with Valhall’s thread so I decided to post this here. Some people will have seen me post this before but this time it's just background of my theory and it does bear noticing, not because I am saying hey look what I did, I am so smart......I am saying hey come look what I found, want to share and theorize why this thing was hidden..? I see significance in this, its just not a bunch of numbers, its colors, music, sound, vibration, and energy. You may just see a bunch of numbers that look pretty together and go back to enjoying other things.

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From what I could gather there was knowledge hidden from the masses, as Jesus and Moses before him were hidden from society. The story had bearing in the Masonic legends of Hiram. All the stories stemming (splitting maybe) from the same source.

It all came down to some knowledge that the elite or priests as I call them wanted to keep from the people. It came to something that was hidden from the people but kept secret by the elite few. Clues were given down time but mostly people speculated.

We turn to the tarot of mystical origins but full of hidden and deep meanings. The major Arcana made up of 22 numbers including the Zero. Many legends spoke of the truth being hidden within the tarot and that could have been one reason it has been demonized over the years.

I worked specifically at decoding from clues Crowley left behind, I found hints that seemed to have significant meaning and I worked in pure numbers.
the 22 cards of the Arcana when added are 0 = +1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19+20+21 == 231


I pulled Crowley’s cards out and separated them into the attributes set out on them into a zodiac circle of 12 cards.

starting with the emperor 4 Aries and kept going around in a circle.

I then added up each elements numbers.

Fire came to 29 - 4 emp(aries), 11 lust(leo), 14 art(sagitarius).
Earth came to 29 - 5 hiero(taurus), 9 hermit(virgo), 15 devil(capricorn)..ok o far so far so good both 29 but then the next two didn't fit.
Air came to 31 - 6 lovers(gemini), 8 adjustment(libra), 17 star(aquarius)
Water came to 38 7 chariot(cancer), 13 death(scorpio), 18 moon(pisces)



to my mind it didn't make sense, there was no pattern. I looked at the cards and re read what Crowley said about them and then played with a calculator and 22 cards for the
next 6 months.

Finally during this time I made a few changes

First was the card Crowley called Adjustment, I made an adjustment with that card. Then the art card spoken of in Valhalls thread was moved due to things I saw on the
cards and read, over to take the lust (removed) card position for Leo. Death was taken out of the circle and so was it's partner (positive negative) 13 death. 13+9=22. The
wheel of fortune and it's partner the hanged man were bought into the circle. 10+12 = 22. The last change was in the sequence of the final cards of each element, sagitarius,
capricorn, aquarius, pisces. 14, 15, 17, 18. As I had already moved the 14 over to the spot of Leo I moved the 15 down one, added the 16, then the 17 and 18 stayed in
place. The numbers of the final sign of each element were 15, 16, 17, 18 to match the first four of 4, 5, 6, 7, numerical order.




Each element and all lines add up to 33 the total of the zodiac circle, being 132 out of the full Major Arcana circle of 231.
The first four signs of each element add to 22
The second signs of each element add to 44
The third signs of each element add to 66
showing once again the perfect balance of the numbers.
Notice the patterns of double numbers in the results.
Pay close attention also to the perfect balance of differences between the numbers.
Each difference adds up to 11 in a perfect forward and reverse pattern again and the mirror images of the negative - positive are also perfectly balanced, showing a perfect
enclosed circuit system.

Other parts



and


That was just the start of it, I gave the link in Valhall’s thread and here it is here. More on that page about the rest of the major Arcana.
www.rejectz.com...

============================================================

Now that’s all just background, now to the theory and thought.

This number system was hidden behind the tarot as it has been for hundreds of years. It was all there but a few moves had been made to make it look imperfect and not right, to take away that secret, erased from the face of things. Nothing that science could grasp onto, nothing tangible in fact only fantasy. The mystical tarot that has been ridiculed and demonized over the centuries. Tarot mean wheel. Wheel turns, movement, wheel of life.

To students the tarot is a book of knowledge. Well this system is hidden behind the visible book. This is pure mathematics, pure building blocks of the universe. Hidden behind that occultish 22 cards is a perfect numerological story that tells about the universe, the planets, the constellations, magnetics, yin yang, male female life. There is more to it, the numbers could be used to create pure energy fields. I still don't know the full potential of the system I decoded but I do know it's vast. If people had the true attributes and meanings in front of them instead of the lie that has been on them for years, then they could grasp the meaning and significance of life, through all the interpretations of each of the cards. Instead, there is no mathematical base, it looks like an airy fairy thing. It looks the demonized thing that it is portrayed as.

This system was always there, always in the cards but yet it was hidden by someone, sometime. The God of today is science. Without science we have no proof of things. Evidence would have to be scientific proof that science can see. Up to now the occult has been ridiculed and treated with contempt by society, frowned on and only allowed in public over the last two centuries. Before then tarot cards were a burnable offence. Why? What was so scary to the priests about the tarot? Is it because the magnetic field produced by the new number alignments where before there was nothing but hotchposs? If this number system and magnetics gets worked on by scientists, who knows what they can further reveal. Building blocks of cells, power source using the magnetic field principles contain in the system?

If there is to be a false secret unearthed. It could be possibly contain something like this number system. Something so simple but yet so right. Something that was kept hidden in secret societies, in tarot decks and other things through time, possibly only known by the elite. Something that is true but something they have kept from us until now, today where the people are that controlled, the secret will be used to further control them. If unearthed in Rennes the "scrolls" the Templars "guarded" and kept "safe" are something like this system that has in fact been there for years then it will be traced back. There would be more to the secret than this number system of course, but it made me wonder more when I looked at the connection between everything, down to the paintings that contained the man and his books. The knowledge. The skull that always accompanies him in pics could well be buried bones as Valhall said. so then the bones buried turn out to be Jesus, with him is this number system along with other things that show the perfection of numbers of math’s of science, there you have it irrefutable proof. Now we have something scientific and tangible to tie Jesus and religion with. more control. Even though this always existed and always was as it is, it was just hidden from our view. If it's buried with something like the bones of Jesus well then Valhall’s right, a false secret that turns out to be irrefutable proof. Because it is true but its false because it has been hidden by those who find it, not where its supposed to be, which should have been here seen by all, along....if that makes sense.


I think the elite know the attributes they are using publicly are the wrong ones. It stops people learning and keeps even those interested in that subject controlled so they do not learn the secret. Who know back to the Masonic tradition perhaps the secret of this system was actually buried in the temple of Solomon and the people who knew the secret killed. All for the future, now. It may of in fact have been split between the various priests/tribes/groups to be passed on from the top elite only to the next generation of top elite only. Maybe it was as said the secret was entrusted to three to pass on but they were killed leaving so they couldn't pass the secret on. That’s all part of the story that still has to be unraveled, who is who in the zoo and who does know what.

All I do know is this secret was there in the tarot all along, Crowley gave enough hints to find it. Whether he knew of it is not exactly known to me, I think he may have because he virtually tied ribbons around trees on the pathway to finding it. He changed the name of the justice card to adjustment, why the hell would you do that unless you were leaving a clue behind that this was an adjustment and indeed it was the first move made, after it was moved things fell in place quickly. There are lots of red herrings in the whole story. Although what I have shown above looks so pure and simple, it took years to unravel because of red herrings. I know it sounds pompous of me to say that this sort of thing could be part of knowledge that has been kept hidden but this is something that has in fact been hidden.

That is the important thing in this, as said above it may just look like a bunch of matching numbers and pretty patterns, and it is, but why was there a lie, a falsehood printed instead for hundreds of years, why not just print the correct bunch of pretty patterns and colors all along?


[edit on 1-11-2005 by Mayet]

mod edit to remove some === so page reads easily


[edit on 3-11-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]




posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 10:12 PM
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I truly expected to see a vigorous discussion take place here on the esoteric significance of the Tarot, always a compelling subject. I for one found the presentation of the shifting numerology to be well done and fascinating. I'm not overly familiar with Crowley's deck. I have seen Temperance referred to as Art and also Alchemy, although my source on that isn't immediate. Temperance the word reads as meaning avoiding intoxication and being temperate in character, but it also means the act of tempering which does suggest art and alchemy, the act of creating or modifying something. The association with Sagittarius connects to this in multiple ways, most apparent maybe that the act of archery is itself an exertion or projection of will.

Mayet, if you could would you more clearly describe the adjustments you made and why you made them between the cards and their elementary correlations?

I am in agreement that the Tarot, the sacred text of Thot, is at least a parcel of the esoteric treasure discovered during the Crusades and brought to European consciousness through the Templars and their related bodies, the Priory of Sion and their predecessors, the Chroniclers of Pope Sylvester II (the hermetic pope). Lion and Eagle seems to suggest the alchemical sulpher and mercury. I wonder if Crowley's color transposition relates to the transmutation allegory, the substances in transitory states. The Lion of Leo and the Scorpio Eagle to me automatically brings astronomy to my attention. This all connects in to the alchemical connection to eschatology, the world ages (iron to gold) and the quality of time. All of these subjects connect through the Cabbalistic Tree of Life and as I'm sure most know the key to the symbolism of the Tarot Major Arcana, the 22 cards representing the 22 paths between the sephiroths. I'm not nearly skillful enough in Numerology and Gematria, but have you tried applying your numerical experiments in connection to the Tree of Life? I'd be interested in the results.

Mayet, I recommend to you the book "The Mysteries of the Great Cross of Hendaye: Alchemy and the End of Time" by Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges which discusses the Fulcanelli phenomenon and utilizes, in part, the Tarot in comprehending a secret teaching hidden within the core of alchemical tradition. I can't say that I agree with all that the authors present but their research and presentation is rather enlightening. More on this can be found here:

Fulcanelli and the Mystery of the Cathedrals



posted on Nov, 3 2005 @ 01:30 PM
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Interesting, infinity goes both ways, endless minimum 0,0000000000000> headed to 1, to give it self substance, which it never reaches because its an ongoing progress.

And on the other side 0,99999999999999999999999> also headed to one, but in this case to become full, a full 1, but it also never reaches this.
This is the endlessness of time and space(and everything that goes with it) in this dimension.

God(God in my perception is all, energy consiousness)is already a 1, but as in ying and yang , because GOd is 1, he has also a 0 side that has yet to be filled(which never happens, because everything that fills only makes God or the 1 bigger and so does his 0 side(which only creates more empty space).
Thats where we and all gods creatures come in, we are all a part of God,the 1, living to grow in his 0 side, and to eventually returning to the god source with information that makes God(=everything also us) bigger.
Astrology plays a important part in this circle, as our horoscopes made up by the elements and other factors, produce different information for the source to suck up as you will.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 03:25 AM
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Cicada

Here goes, a little crazy but true.....
Don't expect a vigorous discussion on the tarot and the codes and numbers systems I have found hidden. I posted it to a golden dawn discussion group and uploaded it to their web which was full of junk and it was moderated off the list and the attributes taken dawn because it went against their teachings and because, well you only have to look at it to see I am not mad. Communication on it never got replies from people I asked, I as ignored like the line in my poem. "You turned away closed the eye and didn't speak a sound".

My ex husband used to tell me silence, I couldn't repeat what I had learned and found. He had dire warnings of the consequences, he kept throwing crowley’s Aeon card at me, saying see..silence (the picture on the card)

hence for 12 years now i have sat on it. I would love to get it published so at least my kids can benefit from it but bah.... until then I've decided to share it with you. I feel why should I keep my mouth shut on it, its a gift to the world, its for the world to share. The law is for all, not just the elite chosen few, self chosen I might add.

my ex husband was a little mad, well ok a lot but at times he would put his head up and say something that would send my mind into a twist, he was very dark and thought he was Crowley incarnate, even looked like crowley, but with hair.

I hadn't heard much of Crowley so I picked up his books to see if I could see where he told Keith he was the incarnate and the first word in the first book i looked was tetragrammaton, it looked so familiar to me but i wasn't sure of what it was. I looked up Manly P Hall secret teachings of all ages and found the tetragrammaton diagram. Then I realized what looked so familiar to me, the word was my name, with only one letter interchanged. the T and the E, (note see my avatar - backwards). that fascinated me and I started I took the letters and broke them down and around, learnt to recognize Hebrew wore out hundreds of batteries in my calculator and got going.


Every time i got to a decimal point I stopped and started again.. I knew instinctively that I needed to work in pure whole numbers. I also knew instinctively that there was a code so I set about breaking it. Crowley always said Tzaddi is not the star.

I noticed first that the positions of strength(lust) and justice(adjustment) were not alwways steady though the decks of the time. Crowley was one who assigned adjustment to the 8 position from the 11 where it sat in the tarot of Marseilles for example.
Rider waite deck had also had them swapped out.


www.learntarot.com...
Waite made several changes from the tarot deck traditions of the time when he designed his deck. He switched the Strength and Justice cards so that Strength became card 8 and Justice card 11. He and Smith also created full pictorial scenes for the minor Arcana numbered suit cards.


I wondered about that. I cant remember the order of my first movements but I knew already about the justice card and what it represented. Ma’et was my "patron" as such, once again my name Margaret is made up of the first two and last two letters of he name, so i already had studied up about her and the role she held in ancient Egypt. Some legends had her and thoth as the creators, some said in the beginning ra emerged from the waters of Nun (Scorpio). so we have that right, justice=aka Ma’et is female, always has been always will be. Well then how the heck could a female card be placed in a masculine sign? Libra is always represented by justice and the scales but Libra is a male sign air=positive.

So that was my first move. I put Adjustment as Scorpio 8 female. I had a chuckle the day i realized Crowley had called the card ADJUSTMENT instead of justice, yup he was telling me something. The rest came slowly. I kept slugging away with possibilities until I finally one day placed the last of the five moves, the five footprints of the camel.. I love camels they are cute, practical, strong, survivors, beautiful eyes and totally obnoxious stubborn bastards.... ... my kind of beast.

Same with the devil was assigned to Capricorn, but yet pan was also often aligned with Sagittarius the centaur, so that change went in, the tower, the destruction of the earth, Capricorn....... and so on....

I didn't use standard clues, the clues were keys I opened locks with. One day I looked at the wheel in front of me ..and it was there. In another instant I added the I Ching. Music, colors, sound, the possibilities are endless, the tarot, wheel of life.

and then I sat on it, I had no money to get it published. ..btw at this point.. all publishers welcome
and I went on with things, learning more, learning about everything that I could. In 98 my son was born on Crowley’s birth date, 123 years after Crowley’s birth, which amazes me to this day because of the numbers I have used, 231, 132 and now the odd one 123. I didn't realize any of this till way after it was like a cosmic sign or something, saying yup, you were right, you did it.

11 x 12 = 132
07 x 33 = 231
04 x 33 = 132
06 x 22 = 132

and so on....... these numbers are significant......


Theres so much more to it. Two cards that don't get used on the planet wheel and the zodiac circles along with the fool, make up a trinity..... the hermit and death and the fool, life death regeneration....., the other cards fell in place for the planet wheel, first three cards, the last three cards and the 10 11 12. they are interesting they actually make the two circles join in a figure 8. It was all too precise to miss. It fitted like a glove.




Sensor
This wheel I deciphered/created...is the astrology, the numerology (building blocks of the universe), the I Ching, the colors, the music and right in the middle of it all is the fool.... zero...all there...the wheel of life......

you might like to read my poetry thread. I wrote those poems while I was deciphering the wheel. They hold so much underneath the surface.


I am just human, and a scrappy one at that... and I am merely human, nothing special, but I feel what I have deciphered is the law... the word.... the wheel of life, always there yet hidden from the masses. If that is the case then there are people who don't want to see this be born into the world, it shows people they were wrong, they are teaching others wrong things, people can never fully "get there" when searching because its not "there" for them to get. Its hidden...., and I am sure no high ranking mason, Rosicrucian, templar or golden dawner are going to stand up and admit I am right. Least of all masons, *giggle, especially coming from a woman...if I was a man then I could take this in and debate it with them. But alas I am pure woman..except when i get cranky and grow temp balls to kick ass


it gives astrology for the first time in our history a scientific base. Mathematics... science....... numbers are pure. So yeah it’s my little gift to the world... Astrology finally proven to have grounds in science and not just as airy fairy imaginative poo poo…

But I do wish it published one day for all the world to see………


[edit on 4-11-2005 by Mayet]



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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But you can't put a link with Crowley and any original knowledge.

Crowley's tarot is one of many interpreted ones, and is at odds with the orignal Tarot. In fact, the meanings changed many times over the centuries, as did the paintings.

If you want the truth, you must go look at the originals:
trionfi.com...

There IS apparently a hidden story there, but it has to do with the figure called Daphne and may relate to an even older poem:
trionfi.com...

Later students of the mystical twisted it to match current fashionable occult studies of the time. Alliette, who was into the Qabbalah at the time, was the first to tweak and hammer at the meaning to make it fit what he thought the Jewish mystics were saying (so we have a man of a third culture trying to squeeze the images and beliefs of a second culture onto an Italian work created 300 years earlier):
www.crystalinks.com...

(the two that always make me groan and want to throw things are the Egyptian tarot (done by someone who has little knowledge of the gods) and the American Indian tarot (ditto, and in spades.))



I do/did read Tarot professionally, by the way, and have several favorite decks including the Halloween deck (I adore that one!) and the Mary Hanson Roberts one and the Tarot of the Cat People (a favorite t read from.) So don't take these comments and observations as coming from a skeptic, but rather from a professional who has been reading since 1969.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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no, I agree with you there Byrd. The earlier tarots that I have seen, and I have seen the ones you speak of during my heavy study years did not have the same associations. Matter of fact they didn't have any of these attributes. I started with a basic tarot of Marseilles when I was a teen. It took me a long time to find a deck I am comfortable with and Crowleys wasn't it either.

My goal I guess is to get one printed myself, trying to preserve the old but with adding the new. Crowleys to me is wrong and I can't use it because of the wrongness.

I sat and contemplated the things you have spoken of many times. I don't think its just to do with the tarot though. The tarot was but one form of the "knowledge" . This is more, this is numerology, astrology and tarot plus more combined into one algorythm that gives us the building blocks of the universe. I maybe should have said "my occult theory" instead of just tarot because it encompasses so much more.

You are correct it wasn't until the "occult" became fashionable in Victorian society that these new things were added and changes were made.

so that is a twister, preserve it as it was or add the new. I like to think the occultists of that time did actually begin the journey of slight additions from material they studied down through time. The libraries were destroyed the knowledge lost. but it was preserved to an exent by some groups taking it through.

I know many accultists have tried to beat the tarot into a box that suits "them" but this is not about that. Its about the hidden bits of energy behind it all. As I said I worked on instinct. I may be totally mad but look at the wheel. If i was mad I don't think it would make sense.

Next point of origin there. The tarot and the astrology we use to day is based on a 7 planet system. Saturn, father time was the furthermost known planet. the Moon was included in the seven planets of the ancients.

Now we know better. Now we know there is at least nine if not more planets revolving around our sun. My system is 9 based.
I alway had trouble grasping the concept of Sun=male positive paired with moon female negative for some reason. To my way of thinking it wasn't "right" .. The moon is not the opposite of the sun. The moon is earths satellite and is visible during the day. In ancient times it was thought the moon and the sun were two similiar behaving objects in the universe.

Thats when I started looking at the legends of Jupiter, the dying god, the father god. Zeus - . Jupiter fascinated me because of a few things. The largest planet in our skys takes just nine hours to spin on it's axis. Thats damned fast. In recent years scientists have talked about an energy source coming from the planet itself due to the fast spinning motion. I will have to find some links for you as once again this was just before i had accesss to Internet that I was studying it.

I also need to do a diagram so you can see visibly the work I did on the planet wheel with Jupiter as the central pillar... (the father, the old and dying god) solid the sun...(the son - the light) liquid and space - aethyr- (the holy spirit) gas.

Anyhows I am going to draw the diagram for you now...and chat to my daughter who just sneaked home at 7am thru a window and scared nine lives out of me. I'll post it shortly..

I enjoy the discussion about my work Bryd. because that has been my issue over the years. No-one to communicate to to explain or even ask questions myself. I have more questions than answer still...



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Mayet
My goal I guess is to get one printed myself, trying to preserve the old but with adding the new. Crowleys to me is wrong and I can't use it because of the wrongness.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Word of wisdom, though, if you do get a Tarot printed, make sure you do NOT go through one of the big card publishers. I've heard unpleasant stories from artists about nonpayment. This was years ago, but I'm still leery of US Game Systems after the nightmarish stuff I heard.


I sat and contemplated the things you have spoken of many times. I don't think its just to do with the tarot though. The tarot was but one form of the "knowledge" . This is more, this is numerology, astrology and tarot plus more combined into one algorythm that gives us the building blocks of the universe. I maybe should have said "my occult theory" instead of just tarot because it encompasses so much more.


Ah. And there's nothing wrong with combining things to form a new theory, but I think taking new explorations is more useful. Although many of our problems are time-worn (love, money, etc) a lot of issues are new (blended families, overwork stress, etc) and really are in need of new paradigms to address them.


Next point of origin there. The tarot and the astrology we use to day is based on a 7 planet system. Saturn, father time was the furthermost known planet. the Moon was included in the seven planets of the ancients.

Actually, my table of houses includes all the planets up to Pluto (but spoke of those as generational impacts.) And the fixed stars as well.


I alway had trouble grasping the concept of Sun=male positive paired with moon female negative for some reason. To my way of thinking it wasn't "right" .. The moon is not the opposite of the sun. The moon is earths satellite and is visible during the day. In ancient times it was thought the moon and the sun were two similiar behaving objects in the universe.

In the New Age groups, a feminist viewpoint like that isn't discouraged.


The largest planet in our skys takes just nine hours to spin on it's axis. Thats damned fast. In recent years scientists have talked about an energy source coming from the planet itself due to the fast spinning motion. I will have to find some links for you as once again this was just before i had accesss to Internet that I was studying it.

(g) Actually, I had my brain goggled on that at a NASA lecture recently. And Saturn. Saturn is straaaaaaaaaaaaange.

I think a new feminist reading of guidance cards along the lines of a tarot is interesting and actually the original tarot cards could probably be easily reconfigured for a more feminist reading.

I find Tarot and runes to be good thinking tools (and am trying to learn Ogham runes as well). I've looked at a number of types of cards set to meet special needs ("angel cards" -- I have several types of them) and all are useful, but... well, like you said, they kind of fall apart.

A revised tarot that I like (but I think you have to have Coyote as your totem to appreciate) is Morgan's Tarot.
www.sleepbot.com...



Welll..... I just tripped across a plethora of tarots and divination systems and I really shouldn't linger over them now. But here's one more tiny bit of a timewaster to amuse you: www.wunderland.com...

Internet: so many interesting places, so little time....



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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I would be interested to look at your house setout the one thing I had problems grasping was the new planets have been added to our standard astrology but doubled up with the old ones. Yes you are right there are new things goning on in modern day that wasn't in the old I always felt the tarot was a book of life situations, of happenings, of deep feelings... Like tower = sudden fast destruction (i wrote a tower poem its in my life thread in fiction)

a book of lifes obstacles and pleasures....

Tell me what you see strange about saturn ..it is important to me as saturn fascinates me above all other planets.



posted on Nov, 5 2005 @ 12:08 AM
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Let's just note that "earliest known existent" does not really equal "original". Almost all researchers on the topic on the Tarot agree that the origins of the Tarot are unknown. The connection to the Greek gods is immensely interesting as is the relation of the Michelina deck to Geomancy. The mystery only deepens.



posted on Nov, 7 2005 @ 04:45 PM
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The planet circle drawn.. excuse my scratchings I will do a better one today in colour




paired 1+8=9 2+7=9 3+6 =9 4+5=9

and compare to this



i discovered mine in a deck of cards been around for centuries.. The first time I ever noticed the earths mag grid in magazines was three months after unveiled mine.

[edit on 7-11-2005 by Mayet]

[edit on 7-11-2005 by Mayet]


Cug

posted on Nov, 14 2005 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by Mayet

I posted it to a golden dawn discussion group and uploaded it to their web which was full of junk and it was moderated off the list and the attributes taken dawn because it went against their teachings and because, well you only have to look at it to see I am not mad.


Well what did you expect? The way you set up the tarot totally screws up the Qabalistic meanings of the tarot, and learning the Qabalistic meanings is really the main use of the Tarot in the G.D.

I also find it rather amusing that you are upset they rejected your interpretations, then you go on to call their stuff "junk." Karma kinda bit you in the a** there huh?


If your ideas work for you, great!
but don't expect others just to drop 150 or so year old system that works for them at a drop of a hat.


Originally posted by Byrd
(the two that always make me groan and want to throw things are the Egyptian tarot (done by someone who has little knowledge of the gods) and the American Indian tarot (ditto, and in spades.))


Kinda reminds me of a deck a friend loved called the Medicine Woman tarot. UGH!!!!!!!!!

[edit on 11/14/2005 by Cug]



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 12:18 AM
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Ah Cug been waiting for your comments.

No I fully expected the GD to dismiss it as you have.

I[t doesn't actually mess the quabalistic meanings to the cards up at all, in fact it was worked off the Hebrew and found only through the hebrew.

This is the Kabala or however it is being spelt these days.

I can't expect and I don't expect you to take it onboard, you have been taught that a totally different version is correct, even if it doesn't make logical sense.

I have heard you referred as the foremost expert on Crowley around here. I had thought there was a possiblity that your infinite knowledge of Crowley and his work would have maybe opened your eyes with interest at the things that he left behind. Instead once again ridicule of my work and a snide laugh.
Karma bit me in the *ss indeed.

I don't expect anything off anyone. I know how much everyone thinks they are right.

I've done this part of the job, I passed it on and have given it to the world, the rest comes after.





[edit on 15-11-2005 by Mayet]


Cug

posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 03:35 AM
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Originally posted by Mayet
Ah Cug been waiting for your comments.


Well it was posted in a forum that I don't check that often. :-D



No I fully expected the GD to dismiss it as you have.


Then why would you present it to them? Were you looking for rejection? Anyway if you want to talk about it with people in the G.D. you would be better served if you changed from Crowley's titles to the standard ones.. They will dismiss it just for that.


BTW where did I dismiss it? I just said don't expect others to drop what they are doing.



It doesn't actually mess the quabalistic meanings to the cards up at all, in fact it was worked off the Hebrew and found only through the hebrew.


Sure it does. Lets take one card and work on that...

Justice (Crowley's Adjustment) You changed it to Scorpio from Libra but you didn't change the Hebrew letter which is Lamed (ל). Now under this system Lamed is now Scorpio. Thats a pretty big change right there. Next where does it now fit on the tree of Life? the path connecting geburah and tiphareth represents Lamed, Libra, Emerald green, Air, etc.. Now do you change the Tree of Life to fit your ideas? or do you move Justice to the path between Tiphareth and Netzach where Scorpio and nun (נ) reside?

Oh and how do you account for the scales in the images on the Justice card? Seems pretty Libra to me. How does Scorpio influence the meanings of the card?



I have heard you referred as the foremost expert on Crowley around here.


Who called me that???? I ought to box their ears! shesh




I had thought there was a possiblity that your infinite knowledge of Crowley and his work would have maybe opened your eyes with interest at the things that he left behind. Instead once again ridicule of my work and a snide laugh.
Karma bit me in the *ss indeed.


Infinite knowledge.. Good lord, what's with the 'tude? ridicule your work? a little jab with a winkyface upset you? yet you posted it somewhere you thought it would be dissmissed out of hand and didn't have a problem with it. Take a deep breath, this is a disscussion not a witch trial!



I don't expect anything off anyone. I know how much everyone thinks they are right.


Do you think your right?


If you want to hear my opinion, it looks interesting, but you need to explain things better, why you did this or that, why it is better, what meanings have changed, better proof that it is correct, etc... I perceive you as thinking you have everything figured out, IMHO it looks to me you have just started.

edited to add:::

BTW I even voted for you the other day. I really don't understand why you seem to think of me as hostile?

[edit on 11/15/2005 by Cug]



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 05:06 AM
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damn I hate finding out I write a post and my daughters still logged in BRB



posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 05:09 AM
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Sorry it just seemed you were. apologise if I was snippy. No excuses I was snippy.

I don't want to change the attributes of the cards back to the GD ones as I think Crowleys moves are important.

I haven't changed the hebrew as such Nun is scorpio still 50 in Hebrew.

yes this is just the first half of it. As i said I wanted discussion with people who do know and understand the path but I find there is not many people out there who know what I have been attempting, to people who don't know of Crowleys work on the attributes and the book of law and thoth and lies, I look a nutcase. Who am i jkidding I am a nutcase but there is something very important in what I did find.

I guess that is why I was snippy at you because I have always respected your knowledge of Crowley and his work and was hoping you would get to this eventually and maybe input your thoughts on the changes and so on.

So sorry for getting off on the wrong foot there. and thanks for voting for me, even if you do regret it now


The point you made about the card being libra because of the scales is an issue I have looked long and hard at. The progression of the equinoxes. I have some theories and thoughts but as you said its nowhere near complete.
Some of the other changes are visible on the cards as in Art with the lion and others but there is still more work to be done. The numbers are there, the magnetics, the colours, energies and so on but there is still more. My notes, folders and paperwork is thousands of miles away at present.

What I wanted by posting this was people like yourself to look at it and compare it to the current system, just the work done not the work not done or shown yet and in one way do what you did before but see where it does fit. and if there is something there why, if i believe I am correct in saying crowley knew these moves, was it kept hidden. Who hid it and how far does the hiding go.

Do you see that the numbers are impressive in their simplicity and balance.

Theres more of course but I still have more questions than answers

So sorry that I misunderstood you before. Its hard to read the feeling into the text sometimes.

and I have heard you described like that it was in a post to a newbie asking about Crowleys work a few months ago


Cug

posted on Nov, 15 2005 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by Mayet
Sorry it just seemed you were. apologise if I was snippy. No excuses I was snippy.


Thanks




I don't want to change the attributes of the cards back to the GD ones as I think Crowleys moves are important.


Just remember if you use Crowley's names, a very large percentage of people will not pay it any attention at all just for that reason. I can't tell you the number of times I heard people talking about the "evil thoth deck" on normal tarot sites... it even shows up in the "hard core" occult places.



yes this is just the first half of it. As i said I wanted discussion with people who do know and understand the path but I find there is not many people out there who know what I have been attempting, to people who don't know of Crowleys work on the attributes and the book of law and thoth and lies, I look a nutcase. Who am i jkidding I am a nutcase but there is something very important in what I did find.

::SNIP::

The point you made about the card being libra because of the scales is an issue I have looked long and hard at. The progression of the equinoxes. I have some theories and thoughts but as you said its nowhere near complete.
Some of the other changes are visible on the cards as in Art with the lion and others but there is still more work to be done. The numbers are there, the magnetics, the colours, energies and so on but there is still more. My notes, folders and paperwork is thousands of miles away at present.


Honestly I could do the same with every other change you made I just picked the first card you mentioned.

OK here is some unsolicited advice. I'm guessing you have heard this, but the number one danger with the occult is Ego. One common example of this is putting too weight behind personal theories and thus getting led astray (C.S. Jones aka Frater Achad is a great example of this). But there is a way to keep this in check, TEST TEST TEST TEST and TEST your theories, remember how long it took Crowley to except the BoL? You might want to read his account of receiving the BoL look how he tested Rose.. then read his proofs of the BoL (Both are in part 4 of Liber ABA) this is a good example on how it works.

Try this, take each card and write down what you did, why you did it, and what it means. now go back to the traditional books (Waites key, Book T from the GD, The Book of Thoth, 777, etc..) and see if you broke something, if you did fix it. then check again and make sure your fix didn't break something else. Be your worse critic, assume you're nuts and try and prove you're nuts.




So sorry that I misunderstood you before. Its hard to read the feeling into the text sometimes.
and I have heard you described like that it was in a post to a newbie asking about Crowleys work a few months ago



Well at least I'm not talking in riddles





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