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Originally posted by kedfr
I won't present statistics as they tend to be disregarded anyway.
Originally posted by orangetom1999
Thanks for the heads up about the Riots in France. I finally read a article today about them. Seems to me that variations of this are happening across Europe...mostly France and Germany but I think they have had problems in the UK also. What I recall mostly hearing about ..was the mess going on at the soccer matchs. This seems to have a different flavor.
Also I expect more of this. But dont they have free medical in these countrys??? Strict gun laws too!!!!????
Thanks,
Orangetom
Originally posted by nikelbee
I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything much less the subject of the original thread. What does free medical and strict gun laws in Europe have to do with the rioting in France? Surely you aren't suggesting that the US is free of the problems of racism and violence? Football hooliganism, while unfortunate, is not a problem relating only to the UK. I think a lot of sports are plagued by violence.
Incidently - Do you really think that having free medical care ensures that one won't have problems of a different nature? Your logic seems a little faulty.
As far as refuting logic, I've been reading this thread for the last few days and other than to hear some of you say you don't agree with statistical information, I don't really see you proving your argument. It just seems to be a bashing of Europe in an effort to not address the issues of this thread - IE: Whether the US Navy is too small. I think other responses might be forthcoming if the topic were to stay on course rather than resorting to the bashing other members unnecessarily.
I have never suggested that a state-backed medical system is perfect. I live in England and know what the NHS is like
we spent the first two years helping you guys with a continuous stream of weapons, equipment, and general supplies. huge convoys shipped out from the US to Britain on a weekly basis starting shortly after dunkirk. FDR had every intention of entering the war, he just needed a way in that allowed for complete backing of the american people. to this day there is speculation that he knew of the impending pearl harbor attack and did nothing so that he would have that excuse.
f you love studying history so much, then you should know that in order to keep from repeating our past mistakes, we have to learn from history. one lesson we have learned here in the states, is that every time we reduce the size of our military, it bites us in the arse, and i really dont care whether or not you agree, because you dont have to depend upon our military for your protection.
Originally posted by nikelbee
Snafu
I have read the thread in its entirety and it is not hard to see that the so-called 'refuting' of the data, is not refuting, as you have not provided any data or statistics to the contrary, with the exception of a 2002 data link. What is prevelant is that you choose to discard any links that were provided and your willingness to continue the argument about which is a better country despite the many valid points Kedfr brought up trying to lead it back to the original post.
You cannot say that the rioting in France is a example of the welfare system not working, anymore than you can say that the US has no problems of any kind with rioting, racism, violence, shootings, because its non welfare system there works wonderfully. That logic is faulty. Kedfr has not claimed that Europe's welfare system is perfect, his arugment was that public monies in the US should be used less on the military and more on medical care. In fact he says on many occasions:
I have never suggested that a state-backed medical system is perfect. I live in England and know what the NHS is like
Also, when you 'refute' you have to take point by point and not simply state an opinion, but also provide logical reasoning, statistics as well as opinions as to why you believe the other person may be incorrect in their assumptions. I read two pages of posts where you simply say you aren't going to believe this or that. You discard the UN data as not being in your best interests. For example regarding World War II you say:
we spent the first two years helping you guys with a continuous stream of weapons, equipment, and general supplies. huge convoys shipped out from the US to Britain on a weekly basis starting shortly after dunkirk. FDR had every intention of entering the war, he just needed a way in that allowed for complete backing of the american people. to this day there is speculation that he knew of the impending pearl harbor attack and did nothing so that he would have that excuse.
Fine, you are using speculation to back up an argument, but where are the links proving this? How can speculation be used in a fair debate? How are you backing up this claim to make it stronger and more believable?
This is NOT refuting. You are simply disagreeing. Here is another example:
f you love studying history so much, then you should know that in order to keep from repeating our past mistakes, we have to learn from history. one lesson we have learned here in the states, is that every time we reduce the size of our military, it bites us in the arse, and i really dont care whether or not you agree, because you dont have to depend upon our military for your protection.
This isn't so much refuting as stating an opinion. And you are already saying you don't care whether the other posters agree or not. What is the point of sharing information on this thread? I am not saying your opinions are invalid, but it is how much you backup your beliefs and views, as much as what you think that in the end will make your posts succesful. You may think that saying you don't agree with something is enough, but it isn't. Kedfr made a few fair points and they weren't debated, he was instead attacked for his views and that isn't the motto of this board. On pure issues alone, I don't think you have sufficiently disputed anything. You have just scared off people who may have wanted to respond to this thead.
In addition, it makes it upleasant for the rest of us to have to read a 'my country is better than your country' thread, instead of what I stated earlier. I'm just trying to steer this back to where it should be. Let's not make this a xenophobic attack on members. I am not a MOD, but simply a member who feels concerned that you can somehow use the riots in France to 'prove' your argument about welfare systems and call that a victory.
[edit on 6-11-2005 by nikelbee]
then you havent actually read all of the posts on this thread. if you had, you would have realized that the Brit is the one that brought up welfare expenditures in both the US and Europe in his arguments, and my posts were merely refuting his numbers and incorrect assumptions.
furthermore, my comments in regards to the riots in france were in reference to his inference that the european sytem is so much better than the US's.
[edit on 5-11-2005 by snafu7700]
good try though, nikelbee...or should i call you kedfr? one thing you wont ever catch me doing here is hiding behind another nick.
By the way..if we cut back our Military..will the UN fill the void ..and with what????
Originally posted by nikelbee
good try though, nikelbee...or should i call you kedfr? one thing you wont ever catch me doing here is hiding behind another nick.
Care to back this up? I suggest you go and look around the board and see what threads I have posted and then come back and let me know how you came to this ridiculous conclusion. I think this is a great example of your logic in action:
1. based on a weak premise
2. little or no research to provide proof or evidence
3. unfounded
4. impossible
If you were REALLY observant, you might look up where I hang out on ATS and realise I am quite active on the writing forums - I also have podcasts and you should have a listen and see what I sound like. I suppose there always exists the possibilty that I'm very good at throwing my voice; as I believe Kedfr is male.
As for written expression - Are you SURE you really want to get into an argument with me regarding writing styles? Kedfr has a very similar tone to mine (ie: we tend to use logic in the same way) but we both write in completely different styles. Just in case you ever think about making yourself look silly again and accuse two different people of being one and the same, i'll give you a few suggestions to look out for.
Grammar and sentence structure: how do they punctuate? Are they partial to long or short paragraphs? Does the writer like clauses? Are thoughts complete or do they chop them up? Do they abbreviate? Mispell? Use proper upper and lower cases in specific ways - do they use British or American spelling? Most writers have pet words they like to use. I know mine. Can you figure them out? Better yet, can you prove Kedfr and I use the same key words? I would be interested to know if you can even spot them.
All this can be proven just by taking the time to read a few posts. But then there is the 'deeper' stuff. How does the poster formulate their thoughts? Are they linear going from one point to another? Or do they summarise? Are their posts easy to read or do they rely heavily on data and statistics? Do they like using quotes? These are all things to look out for as even the most expert forger will let something slip. I invite you to view Kedfr's posts and compare them to mine and then get back to me if you are still sure we are the same person.
Actually, if you are still 100 percent sure, don't bother letting me know; because i'll probably be visiting a shrink somewhere getting help for my personality disorder, as I am not aware I am a British male but you never know...
I think Snafu, you need to look at the handbook and get a clue on how to post good threads and not waste your time harrassing other members and making false accusations you can't prove when you feel you are being backed up against the wall.
Originally posted by nikelbee
Snafu
I stated quite clearly that if you are making allegations about me that you PROVE it. I haven't seen you do it. Just more silly statements and i'm not getting into an argument with you as that would be a complete waste of my time. I suggest you either U2 me directly, contact a mod or move this elsewhere.
(Edit: Btw - if you WERE indeed tracking my IP address, we would be having a completely different discussion)
[edit on 6-11-2005 by nikelbee]
Originally posted by WestPoint23
Maybe we should save money by cutting back the funding we give the UN, we are one nation, yet we pay 25% of their bill.
Originally posted by devilwasp
Originally posted by WestPoint23
Maybe we should save money by cutting back the funding we give the UN, we are one nation, yet we pay 25% of their bill.
Yeah your also the biggest and most powerful, your country agreed to the terms which state that, unless your saying that you supply over 25% of the UN forces?