we don't know squat about the end

Originally posted by scienceguy94
But who is going to warn us about the nature of the antichrist character. Do you think that God is going to leave it up to mere mortal and finite men to decide who is the bad guy?

I'm not so sure there will be anyone who will verbally warn us of this false prophet/antichrist figure short of perhaps the 2 witnesses, I know they will preach the gospel during that time but I'm not so sure they will actually tell us flat out. Yes I do think that God has left it up to us, mere mortals to decide who the bad guy is, afterall this figure will not be Satan himself or immortal, he will be a human just like us with perhaps some enchanced power to decieve.

I dont need anyone in person to warn me about the end times, all I have to do is read the Bible, its all there, you just have to read it with an open mind and it all makes sense.

DO you think Human interpretation will save people?

Yes, it will save some, but not all I'm afraid

What about cultures who don't have a messiah figure in thier religion how are they going to be decieved?

I think so, remember, this figure is supposed to bring about a short period of world peace, I believe that very many could be decieved by an act like that, dont you?

Now I expect you to answer your own question.

Come on, the old testament clearly identifies elijah as a person not a ball or rock orbiting the sun. This is a worse theory than the two searchlight that beam up from ground zero.

I'm not so sure there will be anyone who will verbally warn us of this false prophet/antichrist figure short of perhaps the 2 witnesses, I know they will preach the gospel during that time but I'm not so sure they will actually tell us flat out. Yes I do think that God has left it up to us, mere mortals to decide who the bad guy is, afterall this figure will not be Satan himself or immortal, he will be a human just like us with perhaps some enchanced power to decieve.

Why do you think God has left it up to us to avoid certain damnation if we follow the bad guy? God is a God of mercy and love God loves the world and God loves man. I am certain that if satan has his men on earth then God must have his representative as well. I think there is a huge problem with christianity today. every bible believer thinks he is a prophet of God.

Originally posted by scienceguy94
Why do you think God has left it up to us to avoid certain damnation if we follow the bad guy? God is a God of mercy and love God loves the world and God loves man. I am certain that if satan has his men on earth then God must have his representative as well. I think there is a huge problem with christianity today. every bible believer thinks he is a prophet of God.

Why? Like I said, all you have to do is read the scriptures and you will already know what you need to do, it's not difficult, I'm not gonna say you need faith because most people think that means disregarding all of man's logic, heaven forbid! Faith for me just means having an open mind and sometimes thinking beyond what sounds plausible.

Satan decieves and influences many on Earth and will continue until the final judgement, God does have representatives here on earth, and will have more in the coming times, those rep. are us mortals that have turned from the ways of the world and repented to him.

I haven't read all of the Bible yet, and I'm still early in my journey, but one thing runs through my head constantly, its all a test from God, he allows a certain amount of adversity in order to, for lack of a better word, shape us, and heck, he has already given us the answers to the test in the Bible!

There are many problems with Christianity today and other religons alike, but a lot of you seem to hear something Biblical and automatically associate it with religon, someone like myself, I dont associate directly with any religon, the Bible is my foundation and have spiritual beliefs.

I dont want anyone to think that I am trying to be a prophet, I am actually quite the normal everyday guy. I'm not necessarily preaching my beliefs on anyone, I just find it very interesting and like to discuss it, if somehow something I said has caused a person to turn to God, thats great, but I really have to worry about myself first, we all should.

Originally posted by scienceguy94

Now I expect you to answer your own question.

Come on, the old testament clearly identifies elijah as a person not a ball or rock orbiting the sun. This is a worse theory than the two searchlight that beam up from ground zero.

You are simply presuming that the stories are intended as literal rather than allegorical. Why do you presume that?

Prophets sure aren't planets by any stretch of the imagination!

Originally posted by scienceguy94
Prophets sure aren't planets by any stretch of the imagination!

Unless of course, they are. Do you understand the concept of allegory? Do you understand how allegory could become myth or legend?

Just because somethings possible, doesn't mean it's true or even likely.

At the end of the day, people will believe what's coherent to them - Elijah = Venus?

He seems like a man to me, from what I've read, what reason do you have to believe Elijah = the planet Venus (and not human)?

[quoteGod does have representatives here on earth, and will have more in the coming times, those rep. are us mortals that have turned from the ways of the world and repented to him.


Figuratively speaking you are correct. But God in the old testament always chose an israelite to represent him. the only prophet that was not an israelite was balaam. In a way God has to chose a jew becuase he made a covenant with the house of israel to be his priests forever. but lets not argue about thing lets hash out "will God send a prophet to warn the world of the antichrist"
It is perfectly possible for God to help anybody to realize more wisdom.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Just because somethings possible, doesn't mean it's true or even likely.

Astronomical allegory is infinitely more likely than a man with a magic stick who ascended into heaven (the sky) in a flaming chariot don't you think? For those who have not already bought into such a story, the latter is deemed impossible.

We see allegory in everyday life, but we do not see magic sticks and flying chariots of fire taking men to heaven (excluding modern inventions) in everyday life. Nor do we witness men live to be hundreds of years old.

How old was Enoch when he ascended? 365 years you say? Think about that number.

The allegorical astronomical significance of the original stories is still buried in the Bible.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
He seems like a man to me, from what I've read, what reason do you have to believe Elijah = the planet Venus (and not human)?

I already posted a link to astrotheology. Comparative religion finds similarities among religions that have no immediately obvious link (such as the Mayans and Egyptians) other than astronomical symbolism. While it's possible that a fleshy human (or even multiple of them) was associated in some mystical sense with astronomical events, it is the events themselves that are the source of the myth.

Originally posted by scienceguy94
but lets not argue about thing lets hash out "will God send a prophet to warn the world of the antichrist"
It is perfectly possible for God to help anybody to realize more wisdom.

I'd say its very possible that he may have a heavenly represenative sent to earth to warn us, especially near the end of times, but how many people do you think would listen? He shouldn't need to send anyone to directly communicate to us though because he already warns us in the Bible.

I'd say its very possible that he may have a heavenly represenative sent to earth to warn us, especially near the end of times, but how many people do you think would listen? He shouldn't need to send anyone to directly communicate to us though because he already warns us in the Bible.

Thats not what the bible says it say that God will send elijah before the day of the lord lest me smite it with a curse.
I think that few would listen to elijah. most would consider him a nutcase. Maybe he won't appear as a bearded old man or have a rabbinical degree from a school. he might not even be a poor man at all like most people expect a man of God to be. I think that people are either going to listen to elijah or the antichrist character. (my theory)

Originally posted by scienceguy94
Thats not what the bible says it say that God will send elijah before the day of the lord lest me smite it with a curse.
I think that few would listen to elijah. most would consider him a nutcase. Maybe he won't appear as a bearded old man or have a rabbinical degree from a school. he might not even be a poor man at all like most people expect a man of God to be. I think that people are either going to listen to elijah or the antichrist character. (my theory)

I know what the Bible says:

4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

4:6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

As you relayed, we have no idea what he will look like or how he will get his message across, if he shows up in old tattered robes looking like a Biblical prophet then chances are people indeed will think he's a nutcase and continue on following the wrong people.

I would just like to think that for someone like myself, by the time this prophet comes I will be well read enough to recognize him for who he really is.

Originally posted by scienceguy94 But who is going to warn us about the nature of the antichrist character.
Do you think that God is going to leave it up to mere mortal and finite men to decide who is the bad guy? DO you think Human interpretation will save people?

Yes I do. I think that is the basic tenet of free will. I think there will be definite, visible signs that a person of faith will clearly see. Everyone loves a magician, but do his illusions make him God? No. But let's say he raised someone from the dead. What would you think then? What if you loudly praised God for that person being raised from the dead, and as a result, they had you put to death for not worshiping the magician correctly. How Godly would that reaction be? Some would say it was justified...probably the majority would say that...and that would prove that they are deceived.

Originally posted by scienceguy94 What about cultures who don't have a messiah figure in thier religion how are they going to be decieved?

I don't know anything about such societies, so I can't speak to your question. But it seems to me that if someone came along and performed "miracles", whether or not I believe in a messiah becomes quickly irrelevant. I'm either going to follow this guy/girl, maybe out of blind faith, maybe out of greed (what can he do for me), or maybe I'll just watch and listen and learn. Personally, I believe that signs will be there to flag the anti-Christ....one will need to just peel back the onion a little.

As you relayed, we have no idea what he will look like or how he will get his message across, if he shows up in old tattered robes looking like a Biblical prophet then chances are people indeed will think he's a nutcase and continue on following the wrong people.

I would just like to think that for someone like myself, by the time this prophet comes I will be well read enough to recognize him for who he really is.

But you fail to realize that in ancient times people were considered old by the time they were thirty. standards of living were way down and the average life expectancy was close to 40-45 years old.

Interesting that Malachi 4 has been chosen for discussion in this thread, since it contains one of the clues that the stories originated in solar mythology.

Malachi 4:2
But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall.

There are other places in both the Old and New Testaments where the original myth is seen.

Genesis 1:14
God made the stars "for signs", and also "for days,
and years."

Here we have a direct Biblical endoresement of astrology, backup up by the first 2 chapters of Matthew in the NT where the magi use astrology to learn of the birth of a new king (the new age of Pisces).

Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield;
The LORD will give grace and glory;
No good thing will He withhold
From those who walk uprightly.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Numbers 24:17
“I see Him, but not now;
I behold Him, but not near;
A Star shall come out of Jacob;
A Scepter shall rise out of Israel,
And batter the brow of Moab,
And destroy all the sons of tumult.

These versus directly reveal the astronomical/astrological mysticism of the Bible writers.

There will be a prohpet but first a false phophet
There will be christ but first and antichrist
666=999
Duality it is all the same...

I am The christ and the antichrist hows that get your goat@

lol come on who is really gonna stand up first and say I am satan! By the way how does the antichrist get these powers?? Can I invoke them?

I thought Jesus was Orion heh doesn't it say you will see jesus in the sky as he is coming? Or a sign of? BTW the legend of orion is just the opposite he gets knocked off in the end.

Originally posted by japike
I am The christ and the antichrist hows that get your goat@

Right on. You know about duality, don't you?

lol come on who is really gonna stand up first and say I am satan!

I'd like to think I've outgrown those 'tendencies' these days.

I thought Jesus was Orion heh doesn't it say you will see jesus in the sky as he is coming? Or a sign of? BTW the legend of orion is just the opposite he gets knocked off in the end.

Orion is Nimrod, supposedly. And all associated arch-nemeses of Christ. (no pun intended....arch--archer...get it?)

Originally posted by spamandham
Unless of course, they are. Do you understand the concept of allegory?

Do you? Allegory actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the status of 'real' or 'imagined.' Allegory simply means that an abstract concept is presented in an understandable fashion by metaphorically representing it in things already conceived of and understood, by the hearer.

Do you understand how allegory could become myth or legend?

Anything can become 'myth or legend'--all it takes is the passage of time. I personally feel that it is impossible for any human to 'make up' something that is totally unheard of and without even the slightest tendril-root in some actual happening. Writers say that there are only a certain number of unique plots to write about--and they've all been written, over and over again. The only way to make them new is by adding new details and decorations.


A 'parable' is always a 'made-up' story--and parables are an allegorical form of teaching. But not all allegories are parables--many are true stories borrowed in order to teach. I'm not referring to the bible, necessarily---but just to the literary form in general (of allegory).

'Literal' is the opposite of 'allegory' but literal doesn't have anything to do with 'true' or 'false', either. These are modes of understanding abstract concepts, nothing more.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Do you? Allegory actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the status of 'real' or 'imagined.' Allegory simply means that an abstract concept is presented in an understandable fashion by metaphorically representing it in things already conceived of and understood, by the hearer.

Precisely. Presenting the motion of the stars in allegorical form allowed the astronomical wisdom needed for agriculture to be passed down in a time before the motion of the stars was understood. This isn't about imagination, it's about collective amnesia regarding the origin of these stories.