A view on Christianity

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posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 07:45 PM
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A view on Christianity

We all know the story of Jesus our saviour, so i would just like to move forward a tad,
12 years old, Jesus goes missing for 18 years,
18 years later, Jesus returns, gets Baptised by John the Baptist,
after that spent 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness avoiding temptation from the Devil,
then he does his miracles, Dies, get's Resurrected then Ascended to His Fathers Throne.
So thats the story of the first three decades, then comes the Gospels, firstly Mark(65/75) then Matthew(70/85), luke(70/85) and john(90/100),, so thats 30/40 years after Jesus Died Mark wrote the first Gospel, So what happened juring these decades,
well along came Paul of Tarsus (originally Saul of Tarsus)
or Paulus, also known as Saint Paul the Apostle,
who did not mention anything about Jesus' birth. But then Paul didn't mention anything about Jesus' life and ministry either--except Jesus' last supper with his disciples before his arrest,
his death on the cross, and his resurrection from the grave.
We would know almost nothing about the actual life and ministry of Jesus if we had only Paul's letters to rely on, he did'nt believe that Jesus was a Human Being, Pauls Christ Jesus Died, Rose and accended all in a Mythical sense. and he was the link!
So thats the basis of christianity starting through Paul, Mark, Matthew, luke and john.
But the basic story of Jesus'is one of many simlar storys, Attis of Phrygia, Dionysus/Bacchus, Horus/Osiris of Egypt, Krishna of India, Mithra of Persia, Zoroaster/Zarathustra.
so why do christians believe the Jesus story is real and the others myths?

The Christian fathers resorted to the explanation that the Devil himself had created these other near identical religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus to decieve the masses so they would reject the true religion of Christianity
as being just a copycat of these already existing religions.

I can not come to terms with the answer to that question,
And i cant come to terms about the story of Jesus,
Dont you think its time for questions to be answered and a serious debate?
And to stop telling the kids they will go to Hell if they Deny the Holy Spirit,

Christians are in a daze, google eyed singing there
hymes, Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching of to War

God help us




posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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umm, did you actually read your source? they dont advocate any kind of "christian crusade", they merely support those on the front lines, both in the states and abroad. its not any different from any other christian organisation which tries to bring people closer to god.

the only religion i see marching off to war are the islamic extremists who are corrupting their faith in order to use it as an excuse to murder innocent women and children.



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 08:33 PM
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You know, I have the right to tell you all day long where my beliefs are right and why I believe them. What I don't have the right to do is tell you or anyone else why your beliefs are wrong.

If a christian want to believe somebody had to be executed to please the god they worship, they have that right. If they want to believe in sin, which is a concept I find totally bizarre, they still have that right.

It is not my place or anyone elses to tell them they can't believe whatever they want or that what they believe is wrong. That is a matter that is strictly between them and God.

Now if they come to me and tell me my beliefs are wrong, I have the right to defend my beliefs and tell them to stick it in their ear.

Love and light,

Wupy



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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Christians had been heavily persecuted until the 4th century AD when Constantine, the first pope (yes, FIRST pope), decided that everyone was a Christian and that the persecution was off.

But there was one little catch--it had to be HIS brand of Christianity, which was married to paganism. The true Bible-believing Christians said no way--and they more or less went underground due to persecution.

People tend not to like Christians because of our separatist beliefs and our intolerance for sin. I get weird looks when I mention that I don't observe Xmas or Easter because those are actually pagan holidays--which goes back to what Constantine did. I even got a strange look today when I mentioned to someone that I don't do Halloween. One time I had someone tell me I was being mean because I won't tell my son the Santa Claus lie. I told her that I think it's mean to lie to your kids! She didn't have anything to say after that!

Let's face it, no one wants to be told that what they're doing is wrong or questionable. So they claim that the idea of "sin" is horribly outdated--it's an anything-goes society today.



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by Amethyst
Christians had been heavily persecuted until the 4th century AD when Constantine, the first pope (yes, FIRST pope),

Constantine was not the first pope and indeed was not a pope at all. The Roman Catholic Church didn't even exist in constantine's time, and there was another man who was the Metropolitan/Bishop of Rome/Ravenna at the time anyway.


But there was one little catch--it had to be HIS brand of Christianity, which was married to paganism. The true Bible-believing Christians said no way--and they more or less went underground due to persecution.

They just up and dissapeared all together eh? Not to be heard of again until, lemme guess... your church/strand got started right?


Seriously, if one was to propose that there was a 'fake' version of christianity out there today, it'd've to be protestantism, since catholicism and especially the orthodox church've been there since the begining. It'd've to be biblical literalism, since it looks like the people who were the students of the apostles didn't teach literalism. Protestantism is the error, not catholicism or orthodoxy.

As for christians being persecuted, they were persecuted because they wouldn't get with the program and promise fealty to the state, even tho Christ seemed to indicate that this was perfectly acceptable. The radicals were persecuted. And then once they got in power, ie once Constantine had a genuine conversian to the christian faith, they persecuted the other faiths, to their utter destruction.



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by Amethyst
I get weird looks when I mention that I don't observe Xmas or Easter because those are actually pagan holidays--which goes back to what Constantine did.


you dont observe christmas or easter at all? thats kind of ridiculous, if you are indeed a christian (as it sounds like you are).

just because both holidays were linked to pagan holidays (yes i know jesus was not born on the 25th of december), doesnt mean you should not celebrate them. they are both still the most important holidays of the christian year....the celebration of jesus's birth, and that of his death and resurrection. both are far more important than the days they happen to be held on.

we celebrate and enjoy both seasons....but we make it a point to teach our kids what the holidays are really about...not santa or the easter bunny. that is the important thing, IMHO. make sure they understand the real reasons for the celebration, then let them enjoy it. because lets face it, its fun for both kids and adults to decorate and give presents to those they love.

teaching kids about the world with a strong emphasis on christian ideals is completely different than sheltering kids from the outside world.

sheltered kids tend to be unable to funtion as adults in the real world.

just MHO.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by snafu7700]



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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As Christians, dont you believe that the story of Jesus is a little bit sketchy
to say the least, the story of Jesus was'nt written untill 40 years after the event, plus it was a story derived years earlyer by many other Saviours,
Firstly the Virgin Mother, 25th dec, Crucifixtion, the ressurection and then the Accending,
c'mon ppl stop ignoring this,
most Chrisians are'nt even aware of the Commanality of this story,
the Kids are taught all about his Miricles and the Suffering he enjured all for us, they are not encouraged to be open minded, any Doubt and they will be dammed, your Brainwashing are kids, with a load of nonsense, and the ppl in power of the world are doing it to you, and have been since it all began.



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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christians have no idea on logistics of God nor do people who question christians'. Which poses a problem of spirtual evolution hence end of days was written...Once you get the answer of not having end of days you will see the next problem. Its a system with insurance policies all around no one can beat it its a simple beauty maybe a few things lacking but nothing you can't sort out if you look deeper.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by japike]



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by iamian
A view on Christianity


Christians are in a daze, google eyed singing there
hymes, Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching of to War

God help us


I personally think the term WAR is a spin-word
because the phrase 'Spiritual Struggle' isn't as pithy

If one looks at the movement Opus Dei
we will recognise the viewpoint, of individuals in duty to uplifting the worlds' spirituality.
And not a force of christian soldiers embarking on war to save/conquor the world.

It is interesting about all the twists & turns & politics of presenting a Jesus story throughout the past 2,000 years.
But the organized churches we've got here-&-now...is what we've got to work from...
i found these short reads interesting:

'What Is Psychologically Healthy Spirituality'
'Symptoms Of Religious Addiction'

++++++++

the guy...Paschal (who is a married Priest) has a bunch of articles if you click the {Paschal Articles}
found at page bottom, of either link (above)

sorry iamian, i have nothing to add if your intent was to do an academic exercise concerning the mythical person Jesus



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by snafu7700

Originally posted by Amethyst
I get weird looks when I mention that I don't observe Xmas or Easter because those are actually pagan holidays--which goes back to what Constantine did.


you dont observe christmas or easter at all? thats kind of ridiculous, if you are indeed a christian (as it sounds like you are).

just because both holidays were linked to pagan holidays (yes i know jesus was not born on the 25th of december), doesnt mean you should not celebrate them. they are both still the most important holidays of the christian year....the celebration of jesus's birth, and that of his death and resurrection. both are far more important than the days they happen to be held on.



Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to celebrate Jesus' birth. If God wanted us to, wouldn't the date have been revealed?

Jesus died on a Wednesday and rose on a Saturday. Saturday was the Sabbath back then. There was a high holy day on Thursday (first day of unleavened bread), then the regular preparation day on Friday, then the sabbath on Saturday. Notice that the tomb was found empty BEFORE sunrise on Sunday! Read the accounts carefully.

God does not want His people to worship as the pagans worship.

And Constantine was the first pope because he's the one that more or less got Catholicism started.

The true Christian church has been around since the day of Pentecost. The Church is made up of true believers--it's not any one denomination.



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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There are two diffrent types of Christianity: The real Thing & what is term as Pauline Christianity, which most christians don't know what they are about.. Most don't know about Paul, who was Saul, and then converted to christianity(he said a light struch him down) . paul, twisted the whole concept of Christianity. Msot Christians do not know, where the idea of Christianity originated, and most Muslims do not know the idea of where and islam , originated. Islam, predates Mohammed, anyway.

I am a christian, and I do not take things for granted, because I read and research what is, and what is not.

Does anyone have an idea of the Nicene Council, and what took place there? If you all had the faintest idea, you will not run your mouth, based on this typical nonsense. Nonsense, like the Pope's infallibilty, etc. nonsense, which caused men to go to war, nonsense lkike Pat Robertson, who preached garbage everyday.. Deny Ignorance



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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iamian
As Christians, dont you believe that the story of Jesus is a little bit sketchy
to say the least, the story of Jesus was'nt written untill 40 years after the event,

However some of the early church fathers were students of the apostles themselves.

plus it was a story derived years earlyer by many other Saviours,

You can't state its derived from it, whether or not its derived is what you are trying to get it.

Firstly the Virgin Mother

But look, most pagan hero-gods weren't born of virgins. Dionysus was born from Zeus's thigh, Hercule's mother was already another man's wife and Zeus tricked her into having sex with him, Tammuz's mother is Ishtar, who's not a virgin, and is also her lover.
I'll agree that there are similarities, but this isn't a sufficient one.

25th dec,

I think that everyone can pretty much agree that this is irrelevant one way or the other. Its not integral to the 'mythos' anyway.

Crucifixtion

I agree, this is a very strong connection. Innanna dies and withers upon a pole, osiris's corpse is supspended in a tree, and, very controversially, there are some representations of orpheus as being crucified, upon a cross, but it looks like that might be post christianity. However, crucifiction was used by the romans, and its a far stretch to say that there's a story about a rebelious jew being crucified because of other global myths about a hero-on-a-stick. Doesn't seem unreasonable to say that, regardless of divinity, that a group of jews had their hero executed in a typical roman fashion.

the ressurection and then the Accending

These sorts of things are just too common and general to be relevant. Also, it does seem that most scholars-theologists agree that christianity is strongly rooted within Judaism, rather than paganism.

your Brainwashing are kids, with a load of nonsense

You're really not going to get to have a good discussion with most people if you keep calling them stupid ignorami who brainwash their children.


St Udio
I personally think the term WAR is a spin-word because the phrase 'Spiritual Struggle' isn't as pithy

Intersting to note that this is the same sort of thing we hear about Jihad. Not trying to be critical, just noting this.


amethyst
Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to celebrate Jesus' birth.

This hardly means that one shouldn't. Tho I thought that there was specific passage that says to specifically not celebrate birthdays and anniversaries or any holidays?

And Constantine was the first pope because he's the one that more or less got Catholicism started.

Agian, this is utterly incorrect. Catholicism didn't exist before Constantine nor after him. Constantine was an orthodoxic christian, everyone was orthodoxic, the Great Schism hadn't occured yet, and Constantine was not a holy official of any sort. Indeed, he could've claimed to be by virtue of the emperor being high preist of the roman world, but he didn't. He was not the first pope nor did he start catholicism.

The Church is made up of true believers--it's not any one denomination.

And what one accepts as the definition of a 'true beleiver' is what sets up denominations. You are saying that catholics corrupted the faith by worshipping jesus and having holy days. They still beleive in jesus as saviour, so why aren't the part of the christian church? And if only beleive in jesus as saviour is required, then lots of typically non-christians would be included within the church, including people that the apostles excluded from the church.



crusader
paul, twisted the whole concept of Christianity.

No he didn't, certainly the apostles who personally knew jesus while he was alive and saw him die and ressurect didn't think so.

Does anyone have an idea of the Nicene Council, and what took place there?

Yes, and if you had an idea of what it was about, you wouldn't even mention the pope, since the RCC didn't exist yet, nor, I daresay, beleive that the bible was 'formed' then, or any of that 'nonesense'.


here are some excellent threads on these subjects, which should provide some good information for anyone intersted in their topics, but by all means, lets also continue the discussion here, perhaps without calling eacher ignorant idiots and deceived hellspawn?
Pagan Christ
Que Biblos?
Questions about the bible
Historicity of christ
Council of Nicea - NO reincarnation, NO books of the Bible
Crucified Orpheus Discussion
Constantine and the Council
Lent
Early Writer's who could've mentioned Jesus
Reincarnation and the Bible


And just to be clear I don't necessarily endorse any of the opinions in those threads ('cept my own of course)


[edit on 1-11-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 09:29 AM
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Originally posted by crusader
paul, twisted the whole concept of Christianity.


I have always had my doubts about the words of Paul. I often thought that he may have been in at place where if he couldn't beat the movement, then maybe he can lead them astray.

I don't know if Jesus really lived or not, i wasn't there, but most of the words we know of that supposedly came from him strike me as correct in that it shows how man over did it when it came to following the torah.

I have always felt that Christians today are doing wrong by putting Jesus on the same level as our creator. It is simply the message that we should follow, not complicated interpretations.



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Nygdan


However some of the early church fathers were students of the apostles themselves.

Two of the Gospels add to their account of the appointment of the Twelve brief statements on their office: Mark, iii, 14,15, "He appointed twelve to be with him and to send them to herald, and to have power to heal the illnesses and to cast out demons"; Matthew, x, 1, "He gave them power over unclean spirits so as to expel them, and to heal every disease and every illness". Luke where he relates the appointment of the Twelve, adds nothing on their office, just a part of the myth,


You can't state its derived from it, whether or not its derived is what you are trying to get it.

oops sorry, your right, Used would be better, but u know what i was trying to say.


But look, most pagan hero-gods weren't born of virgins. Dionysus was born from Zeus's thigh, Hercule's mother was already another man's wife and Zeus tricked her into having sex with him, Tammuz's mother is Ishtar, who's not a virgin, and is also her lover.

the remarkable fact that stories of incarnate Gods answering to and resembling the character of Jesus Christ have been prevalent in most if not all the principal religions heathen nations of antiquity; and the accounts and narrations of some of these deific incarnations bear such a striking resemblance to that of the Christian Savior ­­ not only in their general features, but in some cases in the most minute details, from the legend of the immaculate conception to that of the crucifixion, and subsequent ascension into heaven ­­ that one might almost be mistaken for the other.


I'll agree that there are similarities, but this isn't a sufficient one.

that's not what the Devil thought! Christians say that the Devil created these near identical religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus to decieve the masses so they would reject the true religion of Christianity
as being just a copycat of these already existing religions.


25th dec,
I think that everyone can pretty much agree that this is irrelevant one way or the other. Its not integral to the 'mythos' anyway.

Christmas (literally, the Mass of Christ) is a holiday in the Christian calendar, usually observed on December 25, which celebrates the birth of Jesus. According to the Christian gospels,
Was Jesus really born on December 25th?
Virtually every month on the calendar has been proposed by biblical scholars. So why do we celebrate his birth in December?


Crucifixtion
I agree, this is a very strong connection. Innanna dies and withers upon a pole, osiris's corpse is supspended in a tree, and, very controversially, there are some representations of orpheus as being crucified, upon a cross, but it looks like that might be post christianity. However, crucifiction was used by the romans, and its a far stretch to say that there's a story about a rebelious jew being crucified because of other global myths about a hero-on-a-stick. Doesn't seem unreasonable to say that, regardless of divinity, that a group of jews had their hero executed in a typical roman fashion.

Yes thats a very reasonable point, the Crucifixtion was in vouge, but its still a part of the similarities in the Saviour stories,


" the ressurection and then the Accending."

These sorts of things are just too common and general to be relevant.





quote: your Brainwashing our kids, with a load of nonsense:

You're really not going to get to have a good discussion with most people if you keep calling them stupid ignorami who brainwash their children.

Answer me this: If you Deny the Holy Spirit, Will you go to Hell?



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 06:33 PM
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that's not what the Devil thought! Christians say that the Devil created these near identical religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus to decieve the masses so they would reject the true religion of Christianity


Hmm, The devil didn't even had an ounce of God's plan for salvation. Remember God's plan for salvation was in exsitence before the Creation of the world. Does the story of the flood in other Cultures, especially those that do not belong to Judea Christian sphere, copy the original or what? explain that to me. Or was it the other way around?



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 10:12 PM
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I cannot help but to feel that the life and death of Jesus has been twisted into something that was not what it was intended for. I cannot put Jesus on the same level as the creator. I cannot buy into the sin belief either. It is a contrling force and religion should not be about control. Religion should be about spiritual develpment and education. Not like a life insurance fear based sales pitch. I think it has become something sort of evil.



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by iamian
­­ that one might almost be mistaken for the other.

Ok, what myths have these elements, and we have to be careful here to not refer to things like the taurobolium as a 'baptism', or the birth of mithras from a rock as a virgin birth.

I agree that there are similarities and it'd be silly to ignore them, however, there was a tendency in comparative theology to simply take christian terms and slap them onto pagan contexts, often in such a way that is more a confusion than a help.

Christians say that the Devil created these near identical religions

Some christians say this, yes, however all that demonstrates is that some christians think that the similarities are too strong to be 'natural'. Their thinking so doesn't make it so.


So why do we celebrate his birth in December?

I think you'd have to look at the writtings of the early church fathers to determine that, but, again, its just not very relevant. They may've been co-opting a pagan festival, they may've had other reasons for having it then. Halloween and Diwali are both occuring now (or just occured), but that doesn't mean that they are the same thing.

On the resurrection and ascention, its just too vague a thing. A god seems to die, revives, goes to heaven, sure, thats what happens in the jesus mythos, but its such a general idea that I don't see how we can say that it must be a copy of the pagan myths. Power over death is something that we'd expect of a god anyway no? Also, I don't think that there's anyone that dies once, is bodily resurrected, and then physically flies off to heaven as god. Tammuz dies repeatedly, osiris is already a god and is simply put back together, and I think that dionysus dies repeatedly too.

but its still a part of the similarities in the Saviour stories,

But in this case its a false similarity. Lets say that the apostles made the whole thing up. They wouldn't've looked to the innanna myth in order to come up with the god-on-a-stick motiff, they'd simply be inspired by actual crucifixtions.

Answer me this: If you Deny the Holy Spirit, Will you go to Hell?

How the heck would I know? I'm just saying, doesn't do much good to blast the people that you are trying to talk to. I mean, maybe so many christians avoid the topic of the similarities between the christ mythos and other pagan myths because they are so harshly insulted.


Also, I think that, especially since this topic has been brought up so often, and rarely satisfactorily resolved, that it'd be best to be explicit, what precisely do you suggest occured? That there was no historical jesus, no apostles, and that the christian religion rose up as a sort of amalgamation of other mystery religions? Or perhaps that the Apostles made the whole thing up? Or perhaps that the events, minus the miracles, occured, and then these other traditions, virgin birth, ressurection, ascention, pentecost, etc, became attached to the story as it was accepted by a pagan audience? Or something else?



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I cannot help but to feel that the life and death of Jesus has been twisted into something that was not what it was intended for. I cannot put Jesus on the same level as the creator. I cannot buy into the sin belief either. It is a contrling force and religion should not be about control. Religion should be about spiritual develpment and education. Not like a life insurance fear based sales pitch. I think it has become something sort of evil.


Thank you LoneGunMan, you make a lot of sense, i'm not trying to be discourtious to Christians, I love life and all its kind, but it seems as though
i'm being ignored, i only want the answers, the same as everybody else, I must admit i thought this thread would have had a lot more replys, i respect all ppl and there beliefs, but it seems as though nobody wants to tackle serious questions,

Religion is the most dangerous energy source known to humankind. The moment a person (or government or religion or organization) is convinced that God is either ordering or sanctioning a cause or project, anything goes. The history, worldwide, of religion-fueled hate, killing, and oppression is staggering.

if you value what you are, then you speek the truth even if its hard to say,
i respect all opinions, i dont hate Christians i dont hate anyone, plz dont be offended,

all the best ... ian



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Also, I think that, especially since this topic has been brought up so often, and rarely satisfactorily resolved, that it'd be best to be explicit, what precisely do you suggest occured? That there was no historical jesus, no apostles, and that the christian religion rose up as a sort of amalgamation of other mystery religions? Or perhaps that the Apostles made the whole thing up? Or perhaps that the events, minus the miracles, occured, and then these other traditions, virgin birth, ressurection, ascention, pentecost, etc, became attached to the story as it was accepted by a pagan audience? Or something else?

We all wonder what might have been, all that we have is faith in one thing or another, i cannot say they are lying, just as you cannot say they are telling the truth,

Respect... ian



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 01:29 PM
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My last post in thisthread
Was a couple ideas of who christ was. It's worth a look anyway, He was an enigma.





 
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