"The Troops Don’t Defend Our Freedoms"

Originally posted by Souljah
OK - so you Pledge to Support & Protect the Constitution of the United States, against ALL Enemies.

Foreign AND Domestic.

Now lets say, that President of the United States is "hypotheticaly" breaking the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Amendements himself!

Would he, at that point, represent the "Domestic Enemy" - who should be Removed, since Constitution should be defended at all cost?

What happens when President of the United States starts to Break the Constitution of the US?

Should Troops at that time, start to Doubt their Commander in Chief and dissobey Orders?

OR,
is that something that a Soldier can not Afford to do - since it is a Luxury he can not afford.

A soldier does not have the priviledge of Moral Questions about the Presidents Order. He should follow orders. Period.

[edit on 2/11/05 by Souljah]

Again, you know NOTHING.

Soldiers are required to to use their moral judgement on many issues. For example, the soldier is required to disobey and ignore orders from superiors that are immoral or illegal. It is up to the soldier's personal judgement to decide the moral nature of orders issued.

Soldiers can and DO object to their commander in chief's orders if they feel they are wrong. Hence consciencious objecters.

Soldiers DO defend our freedoms. They defend us from foreign threats to our freedoms. But they are not the only defenders of freedom. On the home front there are many other defenders of our freedoms. Activists, police, clergy, and many private citizens wage war against all enemies of freedom at home. Its frar more complex than your simplistic black and white world. Soldiers are but one segment of a greater army that defends freedom.

You seem to forget that many soldiers do support their commander in Chief and the war in Iraq for their own reasons. There are many who believe in what they are doing because thats an opinion they formed of their own free will. Simply because you oppose the war does not mean that is the only "right" answer.

The world has many shades of truth. Try finding them!

Originally posted by devilwasp

Well mate thats your opinion.

How is that opinion? I was there and I am talking about the troops I was there with, not opinion.

If you won't even listen to someone WHO WAS THERE and experienced what you are talking about first hand, who will you listen to?

I know you don't want your nice safe illusion that, all troops are super heroes who never think of themselves as they selflessly give their lives for your "freedom", dashed.

Anything to help ease the guilt and make it easier to swallow media BS, eh?



And looking back I don't see how my service helped YOU or anyone be safer or maintain their "freedom".

When you have some personal experience to fall on then come back and we'll talk, otherwise everythign YOU say on the subject is just opinion. And opinion handed to you from the biased media and government I might add.

Originally posted by ANOK
How is that opinion? I was there and I am talking about the troops I was there with, not opinion.

So? There are thousands of soldiers who both share and disagree with your statements.

If you won't even listen to someone WHO WAS THERE and experienced what you are talking about first hand, who will you listen to?

I listen to both sides , frankly if you want me to just believe you then why are you complain about people only believing in one side???

I know you don't want your nice safe illusion that, all troops are super heroes who never think of themselves as they selflessly give their lives for your "freedom", dashed.

Illusion?
Thats your opinion not mine.

Anything to help ease the guilt and make it easier to swallow media BS, eh?

Media BS? You mean the same media that portrays troops as mindless machines?

And looking back I don't see how my service helped YOU or anyone be safer or maintain their "freedom".

No?
Guess what I dont care if you dont see how you or your service helped me....frankly what I know and who I know tells me all I need to know.

When you have some personal experience to fall on then come back and we'll talk, otherwise everythign YOU say on the subject is just opinion. And opinion handed to you from the biased media and government I might add.

Some "personal experience"? You mean standing around guarding an airfield?
No thank you.
I have experience thank you, mabye not the same as yours but I still have experience and btw...I dont share an opinion with "the government" oh god I said the bad word again, I stand against them on many issues...acutally.

Dude you are the one who is only listening to one side!

You constantly throw out anything that doesn't fit your supplied view of the World.

I try to offer alternatives to make ppl think, not neseccarily to make you believe my point of view. But you don't even do that, you dismiss anything that does not fit your delusional World view.

And what do you mean by guarding an airfield? We're you refering to me? If you were again your facts are wrong. I didn't guard anything. I launched and recovered aircraft on the flight deck (USS Saratoga) during GW1.

[edit on 28/11/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by ANOK
Dude you are the one who is only listening to one side!

You constantly throw out anything that doesn't fit your supplied view of the World.

I do? How would you know! You dont know, you havent even met me. You havent even talked to me...

I try to offer alternatives to make ppl think, not neseccarily to make you believe my point of view. But you don't even do that, you dismiss anything that does not fit your delusional World view.

Your "offering" ?
No I believe the words are "Jamming it down our throats.".
I looked at your side, hell i agree with you on certain things but frankly this is one thing I disagree with you on totally.

And what do you mean by guarding an airfield? We're you refering to me? If you were again your facts are wrong. I didn't guard anything. I launched and recovered aircraft on the flight deck (USS Saratoga) during GW1.
[edit on 28/11/2005 by ANOK]

Very well , I was mistaken , sorry.
But frankly you have no right to pull the "wait till you experience you damm kid" card.

And you have no right to put words in my mouth, or make assumptions based on...well nothing...

I have never met you, you are right, so I can only go by what you have posted on this forum.

And who's jamming what down who's throat?
I just write what I feel like everyone on this board, you have the choice whether you want to read it or not, I'm not forcing you am I?

Sorry if I write things you don't want to hear.
What a boring place it would be if we all posted what YOU want to read....

We learn by stretching the boundaries, by looking at alternative viewpoints.
If we only look at what we are told to then we learn nothing.
Sometimes those alternative viepoints ARE wrong, but if we just dismiss them without even looking at them then why even come here?

I think, if we have to revert to war to solve problems on this earth then we have already failed. To glorify it and celebrate victory is hypocrisy at its absolute worst. I agreed with the previous posts which suggest that the military indoctrinates you, by first destroying what you have learned as a free citizen. As a free, and EDUCATED citizen, you learn that the the world is won through love. Through love and education, offcourse. But when you enter into the military you find that the world is instead filled with angry uncaring unyielding groups of people. These groups of peopel do not respond to education, they do not respond to peace, they do not respond to love. These people will cut you down, no matter how you attempt to help. Essentially, what the military does is de-humanizes certain groups of peoples, and this sets you up for "shoot to kill" orders. Everyone in the military should go back to school, and learn how to love and smile and spread joy across the world.

I think most people on this forum understand that we spend over 1 trillion dollars every year on mililtary funding and maybe 60 billion on poverty. Many great thinkers have wondered, what would happen, if the situation reversed? The military mind and the conservative world will tell you that 'mankind' is built to be lawless and uncaring and wild and distrusting and deceitfull and... And the only way to resolve this wild nature is through laws and order and wars. Have you ever asked yourself about the validity of this assertion? Have you?

I think we should turn the tables around. Instead of worshiping a god, instead of fighting wars and spreading the holy word to get to heaven, we should get our best minds together and seek to build heaven on earth. If we don't do it today, when? If we don't dream it, when will we build it? If heaven remains a fragment of our imagination, a page in the bible, a place you go after you die, how long before a boy or a girl can dream of heaven on earth?

I think the only way we can bring peace to earth is by living it, every single day, when we wake up and go to bed. We have to re-invent society and its people. First, people need more time to think; more time to see this world. People are too busy and too pressured to really care about the big picture. Its much easier to listen to your leader, go to work or to worship the god of your choice, than it is to challenge the world at the mental scope. Second, people will go to school more when they have more time so they can learn in a conducive environment. This will ead to more intelligent people who make better decisions for themselves and the world. Population will come down and war will be put out like a dying ember. People will simply NOT stand for it. War will be remembered as a tragedy of the blindness that ignorance builds on. There is simple no freedom in ignorance, and an educated person knows this welll. This over-used argument that our military has somehow 'acquired' our freedom and made it available to us, is to me wicked and overwhelmingly insane. To bring freedom to this world through war is like surviving through cannibalism. War is a fuel for the hatred of tomorrow. War is violence, it is hell, it is lies, it is extort, it is death, it is anything, ANYTHING, except freedom. That we have to somehow accept war and honour our heroes of war is not tragic, it is instead far worse. We live in the 21st century, the world is only getting smaller and our weapons only getting bigger, this cancer-like behaviour cannot lost!! We have to stop it before more people die horrible deaths. If you really are for life, if you really are for health, if you really are for freedom, if you really are for justice, if you really are for humankind and the earth we inhabit, then you will stand up and claim your right. What is this right? The right is to live on a earth where there is no war, where there is no nuclear weapons, where there is no pollution, where there is no murder, where there is no corruption, and most of all, where there is freedom for all. If you believe these things aren't possibly, and never will be, I feel very sad for you, I do. If you believe earth, our home, and the llife we live, is eternally driven towards entropy and chaotic wars, then so as you think you shall be.

There is love in every heart. It is the one thing that lasts, it is the one thing we can all share. If you disagree with me, then all I gotta say is i still love u. If I sound like a baby to you, do you wonder what you lost? U think you gained.

History can be re-written. I can destroy you and make you dependent, and make you think that without me, you'd be nothing and ultimately worthless. You love me because you can't hate me; instinct. That is society; control.

Are we so inheretly wild and reckless and unyielding? Maybe young people are they way they're because they go to school? Maybe, if more people went to school and educated themselves as a lifestyle, we wouldn't need communist legislation and vast military budgets to secure a healthy future?

Again, free market capitalism can fail because there is no freedom in ignorance. An uneducated public will abuse a free market to no end. The system will collapse, ultimately. We shouldn't have assumed it worked.

Are we saying school is a bad thing, or that its not reality? If school isn't true, than why don't we tell the truth? Is the truth too much for little kids in college? If we hide what happens, how can we learn from it?

I think the 1st step towards heaven on earth is education; school. For everyone. Freedom for all. The 2nd, or 1st, is to pull the plug on information filtering or information control. Free exchange of information is too important to lose it for security purposes.

1) Indoctrination - VOTE NO

[edit on 29-11-2005 by megabuster28]

I had the strangest feeling just a moment ago...

I saw thousands of people, cradling their weapons as tho they were children...

Then I saw a massive wave of fire engulf them like a storm, and they perished one by one...

Is this our future? Is this what will happen to our military? Or military(s)? Any thoughts about this?

"The meak shall inheret the earth" - or whats left of it

[edit on 29-11-2005 by megabuster28]

Originally posted by ANOK
And you have no right to put words in my mouth, or make assumptions based on...well nothing...

I never put words in your mouth, I simple said "thats your opinion" and that is, everyone has an opinion on something.

I have never met you, you are right, so I can only go by what you have posted on this forum.

Then you dont know how to comunicate.

And who's jamming what down who's throat?
I just write what I feel like everyone on this board, you have the choice whether you want to read it or not, I'm not forcing you am I?

Every post you make you use every tool an information warrior has at his disposal...the tactics you use are too numerous to say in on paragraph.

Sorry if I write things you don't want to hear.
What a boring place it would be if we all posted what YOU want to read....

I agree it would be a boring place, thsi is not what I am complaining about.

We learn by stretching the boundaries, by looking at alternative viewpoints.
If we only look at what we are told to then we learn nothing.
Sometimes those alternative viepoints ARE wrong, but if we just dismiss them without even looking at them then why even come here?

Heres a better question, why are you asking me these questions and saying that?
I know this, been there done that got the T shirt.

Hey Devilwasp and ANOK, why don’t you two be gentile men and take it outside, your both way off topic by now. Use the U2U; it’s free

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Soldiers DO defend our freedoms. They defend us from foreign threats to our freedoms. But they are not the only defenders of freedom. On the home front there are many other defenders of our freedoms. Activists, police, clergy, and many private citizens wage war against all enemies of freedom at home. Its frar more complex than your simplistic black and white world. Soldiers are but one segment of a greater army that defends freedom.

OK - Soldiers DO Defend Your Freedoms.
SO, what happens when Soldiers get an Order to Take away one of Your Freedoms? And they do not Ignore or Disobey that Order - what happens then? Will you still claim the same? Soldiers follow orders - thats all. If your army decides to Invade Poland, soldiers will invade, and they will screw the freedom of the Polish people.

So - what about Iraqi Insurgets. They are also Soldiers. Do they also Defend their Freedoms, according to your Theory? Or are they just a Bunch of Terrorists?

Its a Matter of Perspective.

You seem to forget that many soldiers do support their commander in Chief and the war in Iraq for their own reasons. There are many who believe in what they are doing because thats an opinion they formed of their own free will. Simply because you oppose the war does not mean that is the only "right" answer.

I know there are Many soldiers that support their Commander in Chief - I wonder if they know about him what I KNOW about him and I wonder if they would STILL Support him then. Soldiers in Iraq belive that they are LIBERATING the Iraqi people - but the Truth, as you said, has MANY Shades - try finding it here!

It is not so much the man, as the seat he is in.

Originally posted by ADVISOR
It is not so much the man, as the seat he is in.

And that is exactly why people who have not served view some of us who have as non-thinking, blind loyalists.

Reagan put it best when he wondered about an outside threat of alien origin, how this would make our earthly wars seem so trivial, wastefull and wrong.

Yet, replacing earthly wars with alien wars seems even dumber to me. War is a disease, it is an addiction. War is of the afflicted. I beleive in defense, but I don't believe in initiating war. Especially, pre-emptive war. I think most people agree.

I think war is like cancer. There is no other way to look at it. War reminds me of a runaway affect, how each side feels the need to protect itself from the other. This is a process that builds on itself. If someone doesn't decide to stop it, it will eat us all up and leave the planet void of life. It all starts with suspicion. And, if you don't agree, I'm ok. But, I think this has a lot to do with tesosterone and bullying. Many alpha males want their pride and dignity, and usually are willing to step on others to maintain it. They're still sticks and stones, bronze and muscle, and the effect is numbing. Why can't they learn to use their brain more often? That is why it is there, to solve problems without resorting to big weapons and power plays. All it'll do is keep us on this dying planet. I don't know about you, but the galactic alien government is treating us like a rogue nation. They don't like our aggressive nature, but they approve of our ability to nurture. I wish the government would go on TV and say, "We are a rogue nation just like north korea." That would be a bomb!

Nations that are constantly at war with themselves are not healthy. The earth is like a nation. And as a people we're one. If aliens were viewing us as one people, they would view us as primitive because we cannot get along with eachother. And when you look at nations on earth, primitive nations relative to usa, they can't get along very well either. See the correlation? Africa? We can get away with the iraqi war because its not being fought in america. ANY war is a sign that the people of earth are primitive. People of earth should wake up and realize that a war in iraq is a war in america. We can't sleep.

Eventually, what happened in iraq will bleed into america...

We need a one world government so we're all under one roof...

Then it will sink in FINALLY for those that are too dumb right now. They'll remember:
"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Link:
www.historyplace.com...

If we could see how 'advanced' nations are using 'developed' and 'poor' nations as slaves, we would see how that speech might give us perspective. We need more perspective on a planet that is getting smaller, and especially on a planet where weapons are getting bigger. Our minds should get bigger instead.

Originally posted by megabuster28
Then it will sink in FINALLY for those that are too dumb right now. They'll remember:
"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

If we could see how 'advanced' nations are using 'developed' and 'poor' nations as slaves, we would see how that speech might give us perspective. We need more perspective on a planet that is getting smaller, and especially on a planet where weapons are getting bigger. Our minds should get bigger instead.

AMEN to that, Man!



The Majority of the People seems not to Realize that we are ALL in the Same Boat here, and we got to get Togather in order to Pull Togather. And in this World Today, where a single bomb Dropped could cause the Anahilation of the Entire Human Race, things are getting more Dangerous then ever.

And you could not be more Right - Our MINDS should get Bigger Instead...

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Just thought I'd point out, that while the Iraq war is not defending our freedom, the presence of our military does.

I believe you are engaging in the "sole alternative fallacy" here, LB.

If we had not army whatsoever, we would lose our freedom.

True. But there are more alternatives than having "no army whatsoever," and having the behemoth we do today.

No country is as free in wartime as it is in peacetime. In war, many sacrifices must be made, and some regimentation of society must be accepted.

Also: except for convicts in prison, no members of our society enjoy less freedom than those in the military. This is absolutely necessary. In life and death situations like war, freedom is an unaffordable luxury.

Where am I going with this? Simple. Having no military whatsoever would invite conquest and oppression by a foreign power -- true. But having a gigantic military intended primarily for aggressive use abroad rather than to defend the country puts us onto a permament war footing, with consequent loss of freedom.

If we had not mobilized to fight WWII, there is a good chance that we would have lost our freedoms.

Indeed. And that was the LAST time that U.S. troops actually fought to defend U.S. freedoms. (As did British troops to defend British freedoms. Soviet troops -- well . . . they defended their country, anyway.)

Please note that before WWII, our army was almost nonexistent except for an officer corps. We revved up (and also sacrificed some freedoms at home) to fight the war. That's how the founders envisioned it happening. Keeping a huge standing army after the war was over definitely, absolutely was not!