"The Troops Don’t Defend Our Freedoms"

Originally posted by yanchek
He/she has to know or making it his/hers bussines to know. Ignorantia Iuris Nocet ring a bell?

Your now telling a servicemen how to do his or her job?

Originally posted by devilwasp
Your now telling a servicemen how to do his or her job?

Yes! What's wrong with that? Over $200 billion taxpayer (that's me) dollars have been spent on this 'war'. I think I have a right to voice my opinion on the job they're doing. Yes. Absolutely.

Are YOU saying it doesn't matter whether he takes an oath or knows what he's swearing to or cares? Are you saying it doesn't matter how he does his job? Huh?

(I know you're not asking me but I had to respond.)

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by yanchek
He/she has to know or making it his/hers bussines to know. Ignorantia Iuris Nocet ring a bell?

Your now telling a servicemen how to do his or her job?

How old are you? 17 right? Merchant marine right? Do you even understand this Latin quote?

Being ignorant of law harms.

As a Benevolent Heretic said before, you should get really well acquainted what are you defending or puting your life on the line for. It is not all glory glory alelujah and yipiddi doo dah and special weapon this and superior weapon that.

But I'm gona take your young age into account here. I think you are being ignorant of many other things little mate and that harms you or will harm you in the future. Your posts sure shows that.

Originally posted by ADVISOR

I am an American soldier, a protector of the greatest nation of earth, sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

Delusion of grandeur
Commonly defined in behavioral health care as a fixed false belief (excluding beliefs that are part of a religious movement) this psychotic symptom is present in a variety of serious mental disorders.

I'll never understand the need of one nations superiority over the other. 200 year old nation and allready the greatest? Whoa! You really kick a**!

Originally posted by ADVISOR
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

OK - so you Pledge to Support & Protect the Constitution of the United States, against ALL Enemies.

Foreign AND Domestic.

Now lets say, that President of the United States is "hypotheticaly" breaking the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Amendements himself!

Would he, at that point, represent the "Domestic Enemy" - who should be Removed, since Constitution should be defended at all cost?

What happens when President of the United States starts to Break the Constitution of the US?

Should Troops at that time, start to Doubt their Commander in Chief and dissobey Orders?

OR,
is that something that a Soldier can not Afford to do - since it is a Luxury he can not afford.

A soldier does not have the priviledge of Moral Questions about the Presidents Order. He should follow orders. Period.

[edit on 2/11/05 by Souljah]

Souljah, going by your av, does the below quoted mean "anything" to you, or are you mocking it as a sith would?

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity....

I take it you just like the pictures, then... your prerogative I guess.


Oh "of" is actually "on", thank you for high lighting it, my error not the Army's. Was typing it from memory and it has been a few years.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Yes! What's wrong with that?

You've never been one, is it ok for you to tell a policeman or woman what to do?

Over $200 billion taxpayer (that's me) dollars have been spent on this 'war'. I think I have a right to voice my opinion on the job they're doing. Yes. Absolutely.

Voicing an opinion and telling an officer, servicemen or woman what to are two diffrent things.

Are YOU saying it doesn't matter whether he takes an oath or knows what he's swearing to or cares?

I am saying it does matter, but the fact is that your telling THEM how to fight.

Are you saying it doesn't matter how he does his job? Huh?

It does matter how they do their job, but do you know enough about combat to tell them how to do thier jobs?

(I know you're not asking me but I had to respond.)

Thats ok.

Originally posted by yanchek
How old are you? 17 right? Merchant marine right? Do you even understand this Latin quote?

I didnt translate it but I got the jist of it.
I'm 17.

Being ignorant of law harms.

As a Benevolent Heretic said before, you should get really well acquainted what are you defending or puting your life on the line for. It is not all glory glory alelujah and yipiddi doo dah and special weapon this and superior weapon that.

Yeah they should and I frankly dont know if the US does, but I'm asking, is it right for YOU to tell THEM what to do?

But I'm gona take your young age into account here. I think you are being ignorant of many other things little mate and that harms you or will harm you in the future. Your posts sure shows that.

Yet again the age thing, isnt sterotyping and generalising fun?
Guess I should go back to the sand pit huh?
Or do you want to replace your light bulb again sir?

Originally posted by ADVISOR
Souljah, going by your av, does the below quoted mean "anything" to you, or are you mocking it as a sith would?

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity....

I remember those Words - our Jedi Knight Oath or Code, based on meditations on the Force by the Jedi Master Odan-Urr, a veteran of The Great Hyperspace War.

Lets Finish it:

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no chaos; there is harmony.
There is no death; there is the Force.

I am Glad you know about these Code - but I can't find the Connection to the Topic. Are you saying, that the Code that a Jedi takes is the same of a US Soldier?

Remember the Sith Code?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

I take it you just like the pictures, then... your prerogative I guess.

It is not that I just "like the pictures"...

Oh "of" is actually "on", thank you for high lighting it, my error not the Army's. Was typing it from memory and it has been a few years.

I have No Idea what you are speaking of here...

Sorry.

I'm sorry, DW, I don't want to argue this point by point with you.

If I pay someone's salary and they take an oath, I feel I have a right to complain when they go against that oath or don't even know what it is. Or go against the standards and values they have sworn to uphold. Maybe I'm out of line, but I don't think so.

I'm disappointed in the military and the government. I don't approve. But hey, if they cared what I think the world would be a different place, huh?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm sorry, DW, I don't want to argue this point by point with you.

I wouldnt call it argueing...we havnt got the kilt stage yet..

If I pay someone's salary and they take an oath, I feel I have a right to complain when they go against that oath or don't even know what it is. Or go against the standards and values they have sworn to uphold. Maybe I'm out of line, but I don't think so.

That I understand and to some degree IMO you have that right but frankly you nor I have the experience to decide what is the "right" way to decide how our soldiers fight.

I'm disappointed in the military and the government. I don't approve. But hey, if they cared what I think the world would be a different place, huh?

You have to remember that the military is as stuck with politics as you or I.
And BTW, I think they care, why not write and ask them why these things happen?

Originally posted by Souljah
Are you saying, that the Code that a Jedi takes is the same of a US Soldier?

Very close, as always, it is the person who chooses what "they" will or won't believe. That is where the whole free will thing, comes into play.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Originally posted by dgtempe I dont know what they do to these men
..................My point i guess is that they train these people to do the job, and seemingly, they dont care about the politics behind it all.
Once they have their hands on them, it doesnt much matter if they are fighting a just war or not.

What they do to people in the military is instill responsibility, honor and an unwavering committment to your brothers in arms. It is a DNA level, visceral part of the human make up to do all for and represent well your clan/tribe. All else is moot - you understand clearly that you are a rock/knife/pistol/rifle/tank/missle/nuke - the tool being used by your superiors, not the policy maker, not the one who sets the directive.
The hardest part for many after experiencing that visceral connection is to allow themselves cognitive assessment in the role of policy review. It is like a tumor...when one grows, it shares the same blood flow, so to cut it out is to hemorrage.
The article/author are perfectly correct - after the oath, the utilization, like any tool, is up to someone else, the CINC. The rub is that you can not do any job without the right tools and the acknowledgement should never escape that fact.
For many of us, that time in was the zenith of one of the most special feelings a human is DNA coded to enjoy - inclusion into & recognition by the tribe.
That's what can make a person like myself, with all the trappings of social achievement, still respond to a call by my tribesmen in a bar brawl against another branch, or a person like the lovely dgtempe's husband do the same!

[edit on 3-11-2005 by Bout Time]

Originally posted by ADVISOR
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

A-MEN to That!

What is all this crap about soldiers being brainwashed? Soldiers make a conscious decision to do the things they do. Many soldiers actually believe in what they are doing, and I feel bad for these miss-guided souls.

Many others do what they do out of peer pressure. The social structure of the military does not tolerate for a squeaky wheel. Anyone who has ever served knows what the phrase "s-bag" means, and no soldier wants that label.

Soldiers may also do as they are told in order to avoid punishment. You tell your commander that the war is wrong, that your oath does not allow you to partake in this war and that you will not participate, and you are very likely to wind up in jail, loose your pay and rank, and receive a dishonorable discharge.

It is those who have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what is right that I respect.

Anyone who says soldiers are brainwashed is making excuses for murderers. Anyone who says they can support the troops but not the war is kidding themselves.

I don’t support the war, therefore I neither support the war or the troops who fight it. Trust me, that is a hard stance to take, seeing as I was on the ground from the beginning of the Iraq war.

I don’t make excuses for myself or any other soldier. What I did was wrong on every level, and I don’t pretend otherwise. It is something I have to live with, and the war is something that I fear will never leave me. Twice a week I go to a shrink and every day I swallow 5 pills just to be able to walk out of the house in daylight. It is my fault. I went when I shouldn’t have, I shot when I shouldn’t have, and I abandoned innocents when I shouldn’t have.

I am in hell for the things I have done, every day I suffer, and I deserve what has become of me.


Every soldier is wrong. The things they do are evil. No brainwashing about it, it is all self serving.

Stop making excuses for killers.

With respect cav scout thats your opinion and I respect it but I dont agree with it.

The troops there believe in something, they went in believing what they did was right and sound.

If you dont believe that then fair enough, thats your opinion and choice.

Originally p%osted by devilwasp

The troops there believe in something, they went in believing what they did was right and sound.

I would disagree with this...As one of the troops myself (GW 1) I didn't go there believing what I was doing was right and sound. I went there because I was ordered to. I'm sure that goes for 90% of the troops.

You all like to think that the troops are all doing what they do through some kind of selfless morals, and that it's their personal desisions to do what they're ordered to.

The first thing that was on the minds of my fellow "troops" and myself was ooh! danger pay, tax free pay, hostile fire pay. THAT was what was on most minds, not any big moral selfless ideals like fighting for freedom. Sure when asked that's what you say, cause we know that's what you want to hear. But the reality, just like with anyone, is realy selfish personal gain. Just like the reason for the invasion of Iraq to begin with.

Originally posted by ANOK
I would disagree with this...As one of the troops myself (GW 1) I didn't go there believing what I was doing was right and sound. I went there because I was ordered to. I'm sure that goes for 90% of the troops.

That is again, your opinion.

You all like to think that the troops are all doing what they do through some kind of selfless morals, and that it's their personal desisions to do what they're ordered to.

Well yeah it kinda is, ethier they are happy doing what they do and do it well or they arent and do it crap.

The first thing that was on the minds of my fellow "troops" and myself was ooh! danger pay, tax free pay, hostile fire pay. THAT was what was on most minds, not any big moral selfless ideals like fighting for freedom. Sure when asked that's what you say, cause we know that's what you want to hear. But the reality, just like with anyone, is realy selfish personal gain. Just like the reason for the invasion of Iraq to begin with.

Well mate thats your opinion.

Originally posted by Souljah
This is not a Criticism of the Troops themselves - but the Goverment and their Militant Purposes. I know that the Troops - ALL TROOPS - are "Brainwashed", that is how the Military can create a Soldier, to be prepared to follow orderes, such as "Shoot to Kill". That is not natural, so thats why Soldiers have to be Trained to do it, trained to kill when ordered. And ofcourse the Army does not want any anti-War thoughts or ideas in their ranks - that would cause a rebellion or a collapse of Armed forces. So, ofcoruse, they are under the direct influence of Military Proapganda Machine, which is designed to influence the Soldiers in the way, that they think they "know the enemy".

But that happens in Armed forces around the World. That is how the keep control. That is how they Manipulate them. That is how, they can give our Orders. But the problem lies in the Militant Goverment, that uses this Armed forces for their Purposes - and the current US Admin has shown us plenty of times, that they indeed are a "War Administration" and that the current leader is really a "War President". Check the US Military Budget - and then compare it to the rest of the World.

I understand your point, and I hope you understand mine - that this is not a post to Bash the soldiers, becuase they are just Peons in this War.

You obviously know nothing.

I was a soldier and we are NOT all brainwashed. In fact, I found more difference and variety of opinion within the military on many matters than I have ever found on a college campus.

Soldiers, like everyone else, have a job to do and they do it. They all work in concert not because they are brainwashed, but because thats how you do your job in the military.

You ever think that maybe some of those soldiers actually believe in what they are doing? Some do, some dont, but overall belief in the cause is not main issue. The main issue is getting whatever job they are assigned done.

I knew alot more free thinking soldiers than I know free thinking "educated" people. Being a free thinker, contrary to what many liberals believe, does not mean that you follow the whole PC party line, or that you oppose all order and structure. Free thinking means, that you gather information and form your own opinion based on your own experience and incilinations. What many left wingers don't get is that free thinking does not mean you will come to their conclusion. A free thinker might come up with a completely different answer than you. But left wingers, like the right wingers they claim are their opposites, oppose free thinking. You are only a free thinker if you agree with them.

Soldiers in the US army volunteer. They do not have to be brainwahsed. They are simply trained to think more along the lines of military/teamwork thought.

So before you make such erroneous and utterly false claims, id suggest you try actually knowing something about the military. Because its obvious to me you dont, and instead spew the same tired leftist drivel, which is not the sign of a free thinker.

The soldiers are not peons in this war. The military is a tool of the government. Our government may be a corrupt one using the military for foolish goals, but it certainly does not mean the soldiers themselves are simply robots blindly obeying the will of the government. Many might object, but in the end, it comes down to responsibility and a contract they signed with the government, and thus, they fullfil their duty as is required of them, even if some dont like it.

Its called honoring your committments. Commitment and honor seem to be curse words in the left.

With respect;
Thats a generalisation.
I myself hold those 2 words to be amog the highest in my set of values.
What makes you think thsoe 2 are curse words to the left?