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do all nations want israel dead?

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posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by scienceguy94
BTW documents are still classified about that here in the USA


Why do you know about it?

Just seems... Odd.




posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Well, that isn't entirely true, as there are several states that do want Israel dead, and there aren't many in Europe that supports Israel.

I am curious about who the initiator of the thread believes are the co-conspirators, and why they are conspiring to destroy Israel.


Okay, thats true, certain countries would be happy if Israel didn't exists..but none publically say like Iran does.

I really want to know what the author of the thread thinks too, maybe this thread has been created to cause some drama?


Uh, well, I would have to argue that other states have siad as much, too, by supporeting the terrorist organizations that say the same thing. It is nothing But common knowledge that most of her neighbors want to see the Jews of Israel swimming in the sea, and they have said as much. Sounds harsh, but that is their stated opinion.



posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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Grouipies:

It seems to me the intense generalised loathing of Jews worldwide is based on their insistent "chosen people" Weltanschuauung ('world-view') where in the Torah (and presupposed in their Ketuvim and Neviim, and in the oral Talmud regulations of the early Middle Ages down to the present) it makes a distinction between "benei Yisroel" (the sons of Israel) and the 99.999 percent of the rest of the world population, charmingly referred to in their literature as "goyim" (or sometimes "unclean dogs" see Ezra and Nehemiah but also phrases such as this placed into the mouth of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jezuzzz") in Matt chapter 15 or the kind of racist vomit found placed into the god YHWH's mouth in War Scroll, e.g. "stupid cattle" etc.).

Because of this separation fetish, many persons calling themselves "Jews" who have first hand experience in the wider world of the goyim (non-Jews) for example those of Reform Judaiesm for example or secular Zionism) have totally repudiated the ideas expressed in the cultic laws of Moses and the rulings of the later Rebbes as racist and irrelavent in the 21st century where the world has grown much smaller and they know in order to survive in a Gentile World they will have to try to learn to get along as equals.

Naturally, this same same loathing in the world holds in the same way in fact for neo-Nazism, since it also makes a distinction between the "chosen few" (or Master Race that is somehow Superior to the Slave Races) and the non-chosen billions, only they divide it between Aryans and non-Aryans, with Aryans (in their Weltanschauung) being "the master Race" etc.

If Jews worldwide would drop their Torah adherance (which uses racist language making Mein Kampf sound like Alice in Wonderland) at least pretend to conform more to a universalist Weltanschauung (in a sort of ultra reform-Rabbinnic-Judaeism where Gentiles are not necessarily beneath the Jews on the World Chart) where they would repudiate the "chosen people" b.s. (which is a heinous lie and smacks of the most heinous arrogance imaginable) and try to see the world as it really is in fact (rather than the way the right wing Torah abiders within Rabinnic Judaeism would like it to be) the rest of the world would gradually begin to accept them as part of the world community.

As it stands now, with the blatant xenophobic language repeatedly spouted (and placed into the mouth of their clan-god Yahweh) both in the written Torah and the oral Talmud, all in the name of "ancient Tradition", as more and more "goyim" (non-Jews) get to know the actual full text of these heinous documents (we are after all living in the Information Age...!) the long-standing and deep-hatred of persons within world Jewry (if we can even use such a general term !) who still (for whatever reason) cling desperately to the outdated "chosen people" racism inherent in the Torah-based mentality in the world today can only increase, and Israel's chance of survival will only diminish over time as the numbers of non-Jews increases exponentially.

It is high time for the religious leaders within world Jewry (especially those on the right end of the spectrum who cling to being the Chosen People) to re-evaluate their place in the world if they want to survive into the 22nd century.

Remember what the Americans like to say (whether they themselves believe it or not): "All men are created Equal..." and not "some men are Chosen and others are Not Chosen..."

This is a subject which is very very rarely discussed in the mainstream press. But it's time it came out into the open.



posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Grouipies:


As it stands now, with the blatant xenophobic language repeatedly spouted (and placed into the mouth of their clan-god Yahweh) both in the written Torah and the oral Talmud, all in the name of "ancient Tradition", as more and more "goyim" (non-Jews) get to know the actual full text of these heinous documents (we are after all living in the Information Age...!) the long-standing and deep-hatred of persons within world Jewry (if we can even use such a general term !) who still (for whatever reason) cling desperately to the outdated "chosen people" racism inherent in the Torah-based mentality in the world today can only increase, and Israel's chance of survival will only diminish over time as the numbers of non-Jews increases exponentially.

It is high time for the religious leaders within world Jewry (especially those on the right end of the spectrum who cling to being the Chosen People) to re-evaluate their place in the world if they want to survive into the 22nd century.

Remember what the Americans like to say (whether they themselves believe it or not): "All men are created Equal..." and not "some men are Chosen and others are Not Chosen..."

This is a subject which is very very rarely discussed in the mainstream press. But it's time it came out into the open.





See this is what goes on in the heart of the world. The world hates the jews becuase they heard God at sinai and recieved his laws. The hatred of israel is a spiritual one and not physical. I might remind you that Most of pre WWII germany's jews were well assimilated into the culture. they didn't know a chumash from mash potatoes. So you are wrong there. The sad part if that *SNIP

Mod Edit: Civility.

Mod Note: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 31/10/2005 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 07:01 PM
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Hey Pseudo-Science Guy:

Are you claiming that German Jews in the 1930s were so "assimilated" into German culture that they DID NOT KNOW TORAH? DID NOT ATTEND SCHUL? DID NOT READ TALMUD? DID NOT ATTEND SYNAGOGUES?

Want to back some of that up, por favor?

I have read of course about Albert Einstein being raised Roman Catholic, i.e. by attending German Catholic schools (and not attending HEBREW SCHUL) until one of his uncles found out (when Little Einstein was about 11 I think) that he knew absolutely LEER about Rabinnic Judaeism, and began furiously teaching him Talmud.....so he could at least have a bar-Mitzvah...and know a little about his own religion...

But you've missed the point of this thread, which is THE REASON THE WORLD LOATHES TORAH READING JEWS IS BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY'RE the CHOSEN PEOPLE, i.e. miraculously SPECIAL (despite their sordid history), when any thinking person can see at a glance that this CHOSEN PEOPLE WELTANSCHAUUNG is nothing but VILE RACIST PROPAGANDA derived from VILE RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDA WRITINGS which they deem "holy" for some strange reason...and try to foist on the world as the "word of Yawheh" or as they say, "the Word of G-d"

Have you even READ their "holy" texts in the Original..? Perhaps I shouldn't ask...because this opens up a whole other can of worms (i.e. which version of their propaganda texts is the right one, e.g. the Massoretic pointed text of AD 980 or the unpointed Hebrew Vorlage to the Septuaginta from BC 250, or the Dead Sea Scroll Mess (BC 300 to AD 68) or the Targums, or the Sammaritan Pentateuch etc. all of which differ from each other in content by as much as 25%...so there is no holy text to even consider, literally speaking, that is).

But pursuant to your earlier jibe, if you've come across anything written by (neo) AMADEUS, you'll know that he is anything but Sycophantic...!

I suspect in your case the Truth just hurts too much for your Sunday School Mentality...but there's always room for maturity if you take the time to do some serious research on the subject, as I have !



posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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Ta Neo for showing us all the differnce between criticising Israel and anti semitism.

Isreal as a nation has a huge number of flaws, with its near Nazi policies regarding some aspects of the occupied teritories to the fact that some members of the government have described Israeli Arabs as a 'demographic problem'

At the same time they are under seige from all sides and a large proportion of the populace has direct memories of being caught up in mechanised extermination. Im willing to bet that can leave you a little paranoid.

Judaism as a faith is really not the issue here. Even if their holy book says some nasty things I dont think you'll find the Bible or the Koran to be much nicer if you only read select passages. It really is anti semitic to say that a whole religion needs reform because of the what a holy book says. Has there been any reent Jewish led genocides? Nope. Has there been 2000 years of atrocities against the Jews? Yup

Neo do you really think that the average illiterate arse backwards peasent in the middle ages hated the Jews because of the nasty words in their holy book? That apparant genocides of long dead people would rouse them more than the simple 'outsiders! Burn them!' mentality of the time? People do not hate the Jews because they think of themselves as the chosen few, people have hated them because they are rich and a minority, a terrible combination in an age of fear, intolerance and petty jealousy.

Most nations do not want Isreal dead, because no sucessful, democratic nation should be wiped out. Some arab states want her gone for reasons of vengance and to keep their populace quiet about the crap living conditions by giveing them someone to blame.



posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 08:47 PM
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I think that alot of people around the world believe that if Israel wasn't around there could be peace in the Middle East. They feel it's easier to get rid of several million Jews than several hundred million muslims.

Israel also has one thing that accompanies them, even if the majority of Jews don't believe it. They are reminder that there is a God and since most of the world doesn't want to be reminded of that fact, there is hatred for them because of this.

Even if they were gone(and they shouldn't be) there would not be peace and the next group(christians) would be targeted as obsolete on the quest for peace.



posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 08:47 PM
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But you've missed the point of this thread, which is THE REASON THE WORLD LOATHES TORAH READING JEWS IS BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY'RE the CHOSEN PEOPLE, i.e. miraculously SPECIAL (despite their sordid history), when any thinking person can see at a glance that this CHOSEN PEOPLE WELTANSCHAUUNG is nothing but VILE RACIST PROPAGANDA derived from VILE RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDA WRITINGS which they deem "holy" for some strange reason...and try to foist on the world as the "word of Yawheh" or as they say, "the Word of G-d"



Jews never call the torah the word of God they call it torah it means teachings. Only christians call it word of God. You are revealing your ignorance more and more in each post. if you had learned anything The jews never wanted to be chosen. in the traditions God threatened to slam mount sinai on top of them if they didn't take it(the torah). In Fact tradition says that God went to every nation but they rejected it becuase there were things that they could not do such as not kill or steal. The jews were forced to accept the laws.
NEO was anybody in your family jewish?

Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 31/10/2005 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Oct, 30 2005 @ 11:53 PM
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Mutuality of what? eternal hatred of jews?


Maybe it would be best advised if you were to re-read my statement once more. Nowhere in my statment is Jewery explicit, nor does it take into account the myopia you seem to be suffering from. There exists plight other than that of the Jews; there have been genocides commited brutaly other than that commited against the Jews.

Luxifero



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by scienceguy94
Technically it is not a conspiracy, but So many european countries vote against israel. Such as NOT declaring HAMAS a terrorist entity in the likes of al-qiada. It is illogical for israels friends to stand idly by when they get atttacked by suicide bombers. What other country gets so much flake for trying to defend themselves. is it wrong for a jew to exist in this world??
You know for one tiny moment in time the nations of the world felt sorry for the jews at the end of WWII.


All the Arab and Moslem states would like to see Israel cease to exist. All of them stated this in the 40's and 50's, and their policies even today involve pretending Israel doesn't exist and harassing travellers. If the Israelis ever get confused about this, they will most certainly get the Mugabe treatment.

European states are mainly controlled by the liberal left, whichever party is in power. Since Israel was supported by the US, Soviet policy was to attack Israel as a US colony (which it does indeed somewhat feel like), and leftists everywhere followed this line. The Soviet collapse did not involve the arrest of its fellow-travellers who have continued this.

However other sources of anti-Israeli feeling exist. After WW2 no-one much felt anything but sympathy for Jews; after the Six-day war most people felt admiration for the manner in which the Israelis had triumphed over their adversaries.

Nevertheless this support has been eroded over the last 20 years. On the one hand Jews have insistently demanded special treatment from the non-Jewish public. The incessant self-promotion, such as building 'holocaust museums', has created resentment -- since people reasonably ask just why the world that defeated Hitler should be made to feel guilty by the Jews, when the Jews owe their existence to us. Few people see just why the Jews should enjoy a status above criticism which they do not extend to anyone else.

Furthermore various Jewish groups have actively antagonised people by their actions. The best example would be the manner in which Switzerland was attacked by a group of NY Jews, who forced the Swiss taxpayer to pay out huge sums in 'compensation' for alleged wartime irregularities when Switzerland was encircled by the Nazis. Since the taxpayers were all born after the war, and the dispute was conducted with the utmost insolence by the NY'ers, this must have promoted real hatred.

In short, a lot of people are tired of being told they can't even think anything even faintly critical of the Jews, while the latter feather their nests at the expense of others. The result is a rise in anti-semitism, which manifests in captious attacks on Israeli policy. Even so most people really don't think of a 'Jewish problem'.

Yet, as has been correctly pointed out, all the Israelis are trying to do is defend themselves. If the objectors were to succeed in overthrowing Israel, as they did S.Africa, the result would be the creation of Jewish ghettos all over the western world. This in turn would almost certainly lead to another holocaust. Who wants this?

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 09:34 AM
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Hey Pseudo Science 94 Guy:

To which "god" (exactly) are you referring in your post when you used the term "God"?

Are you perhaps referring to the clan "god" of the "Bible"? Then you would HAVE to mean YHWH (or Yahweh) the post-Exilic clan god of the Jews, since the books that were included in that collection are all Yahwistic documents.

I assume by "God" you do not mean Dagon, or Vishnu, or Mitra, or Shu or Tefnut or Shiva, or Brahma or Molech or Hapi-Osiris (Serapis) or any one of 500,000 "gods" out there in the wild.

So naturally, the priests of YHWH, the clan god of Israel, who wrote the text of the "bible" (even the New Testament was written by Messianic "Jews") would have a pro-Yahweh "chosen people" world-view.

It's called CONSIDER THE SOURCE.

If the Hopi Tribelets wrote the "bible" you think is the "word of God", then the HOPI INDIANS would be the Chosen People, and the center of the Universe. It would reflect their Weltanschauung.

So you have to step back a little and look at the bigger picture.

You claim that (neo) Amadeus is not educated in these matters, despite the fact that I have studied Aramaic, Koine Greek and Paleo Hebrew at University Level for a number of years, and yes, I can read the garbled texts of the Jews (in all their contradictory versions including the SamPent and the Septuaginta) in their original languages and am very well versed in these nuances, which you apparently are NOT.

And yes, to answer your question, there are Ashkenazim in my family (Gentiile friendly Reform Jews who married into it over the years, and who have reputiated the racism of the Torah as "uninspired Yahwistic propaganda tracts" and have decided to co-exist with 99.999 percent of the rest of the world).

Just to let you know...since you assume so much...!

[edit on 31-10-2005 by NEOAMADEUS]



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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You claim that (neo) Amadeus is not educated in these matters, despite the fact that I have studied Aramaic, Koine Greek and Paleo Hebrew at University Level for a number of years, and yes, I can read the garbled texts of the Jews (in all their contradictory versions including the SamPent and the Septuaginta) in their original languages and am very well versed in these nuances, which you apparently are NOT.


And?

You may well be able to do that, and if you can im very jealous, since i cant even piece together the basics of 5th century English for my course.

Now what does that have to do with anything?

You have stated the the world hates the Jews for what the Tora says. You have not provided any proof, any examples of anti Jewish activity that has occured because of this.

In short you have done nothing but say that the Jews have been victimised through the years because of a holy book. And that everyone is justified in hating them. Now to me its only a short leap to justifying the hatred to being part of it. A tad alarming but there we are.



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 12:07 PM
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*SNIP*

Mod Edit: Unsalvageable Post.

Mod Note: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 2/11/2005 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 12:47 PM
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Hey Pseudo-Science....

Better watch your tongue if you want to stay on these threads...

But more to the point, no, I am not an Ashkenazi, I am a "dirty stupid unclean gentile dog" (according to the Talmud), I only mentioned that some of my family members (2nd cousins actually) married Ashkenazim in the 1950s.

But no, sunshine, I am a goy, physically blood descended from good old pagan Druids..but of course Herr Hitler would have exterminated me (as he did 7 million of my brothers) for purely political reasons...since I hate racist dogma no matter from whence it emanates...

And if you think the Torah or the Talmud or Mein Kampf is NOT racist self-serving propaganda tracts, you need to get out more...

But tone down the rhetoric, please, we are all here gentlepersons after all...and need to keep a civil keyboard under our fingertips at all times...

Just a thought...



posted on Oct, 31 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Grouipies:

It seems to me the intense generalised loathing of Jews worldwide is based on their insistent "chosen people" Weltanschuauung ('world-view') where in the Torah (and presupposed in their Ketuvim and Neviim, and in the oral Talmud regulations of the early Middle Ages down to the present) it makes a distinction between "benei Yisroel" (the sons of Israel) and the 99.999 percent of the rest of the world population, charmingly referred to in their literature as "goyim" (or sometimes "unclean dogs" see Ezra and Nehemiah but also phrases such as this placed into the mouth of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jezuzzz") in Matt chapter 15 or the kind of racist vomit found placed into the god YHWH's mouth in War Scroll, e.g. "stupid cattle" etc.).
As it stands now, with the blatant xenophobic language repeatedly spouted (and placed into the mouth of their clan-god Yahweh) both in the written Torah and the oral Talmud, all in the name of "ancient Tradition", as more and more "goyim" (non-Jews) get to know the actual full text of these heinous documents (we are after all living in the Information Age...!) the long-standing and deep-hatred of persons within world Jewry (if we can even use such a general term !) who still (for whatever reason) cling desperately to the outdated "chosen people" racism inherent in the Torah-based mentality in the world today can only increase, and Israel's chance of survival will only diminish over time as the numbers of non-Jews increases exponentially.

This is a subject which is very very rarely discussed in the mainstream press. But it's time it came out into the open.






I see your having a heated debate!lolol

But my point was to say, that it is very true, people do not bring up this point about the torah, off thread i know, but your post was informative, whatever views people might take.
Double standards seem to run knee high through history if looked at properly.
Unfortuanetly, as a race we need to find a middle ground to survive.




[edit on 31-10-2005 by Denied]

[edit on 31-10-2005 by Denied]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 02:50 AM
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Neoamadeus, You have me totally confused here. Exactly what is your point and just where do you stand? You don't like "racist dogma"?? You certainly had me fooled for a while there! And while I am not Jewish, I do think the world is filled with anti-Semitism. And that is wrong.



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 02:53 AM
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One more thing to add. EVERY culture begins by referring to itself, in some way or another, as the "chosen" or "real" or "true" people. All our ancestors did it. So does that mean we all gather together to loathe ourselves and everybody else on the face of the earth?!



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 03:29 AM
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Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS

in the Torah (and presupposed in their Ketuvim and Neviim, and in the oral Talmud [...] charmingly referred to in their literature as [...] (or sometimes "unclean dogs"



Could you please provide a source for this?

Just for your information: There is nothing inherently insulting about the word "goy."

The hebrew word "goy" means "nation" .

Also, contrary to your belief, Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people.

We do refer to ourselves as G-d's chosen people: chosen to be in a covenant with G-d.We do not believe that G-d chose the Jews because of any inherent superiority.

According to the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 2b), G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it.

And you could read in Exodus 19:5,6:


"Ve'atah imshamoa tishme'u bekoli ushmartem et briti viheyitem li sgulah mikol ha'amim kili kol ha'aretz. Ve'atem tiheyu li mamlechet kohanim ve goy kadosh eleh hadevarim asher tedaber el beney Yisra'el".


which means translated to english language:

"If you obey me and keep my covenant, you shall be 'my special treasure among all nations', even though all the world is mine. You will be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to me.' These are the words that you must relate to the Israelites."

(BTW: here one could find the word GOY:- G-d says that the Children of Israel will be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation," : a goy kadosh)



[edit on 2-11-2005 by Riwka]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 06:35 AM
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The Truth is simple

A Jewish homeland was created in Palestine with the backing of the United Nations (Powerful figures in America and the USA were and are Jewish), the Country was split into two and the Arabs forced out of land they had occupied for nearly 2000 years.

It's akin to the decendent of a man who owned your house 20 centuries ago moving in and taking possesion of the Ground floor and forcing you to live upstairs.

Of course you can't say that because of the 6 million Jews the Nazis killed in the War, in fact anything you say against the Jewish race is considered to be anti sematic in our society which gives them a fantastic protective shield that money cannot buy.

In fact it's weird isn't it...if you say anything uncomplimentary about the Jews in many social circles the idea that you have Nazi leanings flits throught their mind because the idea of Nazis against Jews is so close and Fresh in the minds of people.

It's all religion of course...A belief not based on any fact that divides one human being from another...which is basically what religion does...it divides people who are otherwise alike and that people in power have maintained and exploited that since the dawn of religion because it gives them a infaliable excuse to loot and takeover a village, town or country.

Christians , Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Scientologists, Satanists and idol worshippers...all divided by faith...all basically the same.

Get rid of that divide and the world has a future

Simple as



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 09:59 AM
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Hey Rikwa:

Your warped Weltanschauung has confused you again, as in previous posts and you have been indoctrinated in this fog you live in for too long. It's time to CLEAR THE AIR a little so maybe you can breathe !

Are you translating your pointed Hebrew as "a kingdom of priests" or a Kingdom AND priests?" Do you know the difference in all the texts for this verse?

Are you even aware there of all the textual manuscript issues in the Hebrew Torah generally (comparing say the Sam Pent with the later Massoretic mess, or the older Hebrew Vorlage to the Seputaginta, or the Dead Sea Scroll versions of this portion of the "torah" in a text version you want people to assume is the ONLY one out there?

Are you not aware that the textual mess of the Torah in antiquty gave rise to many points of contention and schism?

Do you actually expect us to believe there is ONE AND ONLY text for you to randomly choose to quote at us?

Why do you INSIST on oversimplifying all the infinitely COMPLEX nuances here of the Hebrew textual tradition?

Do you think Neo Amadeus will be taken in by your half-truths on these threads like so many others who are not conversant with the material?

Have you even SEEN (much less compared) any of the Dead Sea Scroll material for this verse in question that you so proudly (and pointlessly) quote, all pointed with vowells that are not even there in the original versions (which consonants don't EVEN match each other in all the ancient versions)?



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