NEWS: Camp X-Ray Holds Open Day.

For the first time the US administration is to allow three human rights workers to visit Camp X-ray to see for themselves the treatment of detainees in Gunatanemo Bay. The three workers will be able to question command staff who will accompany them and observe operations at the camp. The move was made after the UN's Kofi Annan asked US officials to allow access to the camps by UN Human rights workers.



Sorry I am cynical but I do not think these people will be allowed unfettered access within the camp. I think that human rights workers should be assigned permanently to these camps and they should be allowed access to question detainees about treatment.

Why oh why do I have images of the Pontipkin villages, show camps and model prisons from various totalarian regimes floating through the back of my mind? Surely the Bush Administration isn't so niave to believe that the UN inspectors are so niave to believe what they are shown is the real thing. AND, if the Bush Admin. is so niave as to believe that they can, after Abu Graib, Afghanistan, renditions and all the complaints about Gitmo, pull this off; what does it say about them?

Why in the hell should they be allowed unfettered around the camp. They have NO BUSINESS there what so ever. Oh please I am sure the poor muslim prisoners are just fine. I bet someone even showed them which way is north

Whompa1, I hope for your sake you do not have friends in the military let alone friends who end up being captured. If you do, you will realise the pain these people go through - I have seen it at the base I used to work at - when one of their members went missing.

We should not punish people, who a court does not decide is a criminal. If the Goverment and Military can decide guilty, I do not wish to live in such a society, I would also be shocked if you did. In fact...that is a road to a system of Goverment like the U.S.S.R and Nazi Germany used. I would rather not live through either one of those and remember it.

Will they get full access?

Well it isn't like it is without warning, they will see nothing wrong because it won't be done in front of them. It is that simple.

Well said odium well said indeed.

Originally posted by Odium
Whompa1, I hope for your sake you do not have friends in the military let alone friends who end up being captured. If you do, you will realise the pain these people go through - I have seen it at the base I used to work at - when one of their members went missing.

Truth be told Odium my best friend who I knew since the 5th grade was a 1st LT in Iraq who was killed by an IED on Dec 21 of 04. So dont talk to me about pain ok? I have zero compassion for these bastards what so ever. Hell if it was up to me they would have nothing but 4 bare walls if they were lucky. No religous approved diets, no kuran, and certainly no praying time. Sorry buddy you threw that all away. Welcome to hell.



[edit on 29-10-2005 by Whompa1]

Without compassion we are no better than our prejudices.

Originally posted by Whompa1
Truth be told Odium my best friend who I knew since the 5th grade was a 1st LT in Iraq who was killed by an IED on Dec 21 of 04.

What does that have to do with human rights workers going to Camp X-ray?

So dont talk to me about pain ok? I have zero compassion for these bastards what so ever.

OK....

Hell if it was up to me they would have nothing but 4 bare walls if they were lucky. No religous approved diets, no kuran, and certainly no praying time. Sorry buddy you threw that all away. Welcome to hell

Why? Why should they not have those things? Can you explain? Do you know why they are there?

r/s
sporty

[edit on 29/10/2005 by SportyMB]

Sporty I was answering Odiums post about if I knew someone over there in the military.

Better yet you tell me why they should have all the creature comforts of home? Why do they deserve them. I was under the impression it was war out there and these are prisoners of war who should be treated accordingly. Its not the Hitlon or the Waldorf. I make no apologies about how I feel what so ever.

[edit on 29-10-2005 by Whompa1]

Whompa you are looking at this from a biased and blinkered perspective just like thousands and thousands of others in the world. I am sorry for your pain but I am afraid you are using the loss of your friend to hold on to hatred and anger and vengeance. Instead of growing and learning from it all you are using the loss as an excuse to fight back the nearest target...

Everyone suffers pain and loss in their lives Whompa, the part that makes your life is how you deal with it....

I am sorry I can't get you to see the two sides of this coin. Hatred is a burning consuming fire.

Do you remember how the Americans were treated by "Charlie" in the Vietnam war. Do you remember how the Japanses treated the Americans in the 2nd world war..and do you remember the germans?

I do and I certainly remember how your people and mine screamed about the atrocities commited upon American prisoners. Oh the barbarism was the cry in Serbia....Movies were made, hearts were wrenched..... How could they do that us..was the cry heard loud and clear...

what was learnt here......


and there never was any question bought into this thread that the detainees should get the creature comforts of home.. its not the issue, never was mentioned about good living... the bare necessities should suffice....

hmm lets see now.. I remember a cell, with a one inch thick matress, a pillow, a steel toilet and some thin blankies. A shower and excercise once a day and healthy but bland food. That is sufficient ..that is no different to how other prisoners within the system are treated.

but no beatings, whippings, degradation, torture, weeing on bibles and other assorted caveman tactics.




[edit on 29-10-2005 by Mayet]

Originally posted by Odium
Whompa1, I hope for your sake you do not have friends in the military let alone friends who end up being captured. If you do, you will realise the pain these people go through - I have seen it at the base I used to work at - when one of their members went missing.

Are you suggesting that giving these people trials would make US prisoners get any better treatment. It really worked well when we followed the Geneva convention in WW2 with German and Japanese prisoners. Those countries were oh so nice to American prisoners in return.

Not as if Terrorist are even part of the geneva convention in the first place.

Or are you comparing the way Terrorist treat thier prisoners to camp X-ray? If it was so alike we wouldn't even have any prisoners left, just a bunch of videos of beheadings to remember them by. I dont remember the US releasing any beheading videos from camp X-ray but I remember a bunch of ones thanks to the terrorist.

Originally posted by Whompa1
Better yet you tell me why they should have all the creature comforts of home?

Dude, Noone is saying that. The HR workers are not going in to ensure the prisoners have silk linen and velvet carpet...they're just going in to make sure they are treated in a way that follows the GC....treated how POW's should be treated.

I was under the impression it was war out there and these are prisoners of war who should be treated accordingly.

I have a good understanding of what it's like "out there". And I agree, the POW's should be treated like POW's...not like kings and not like scum either

[edit on 29/10/2005 by SportyMB]

Whompa1, they have not been guilty.

If everyone who is arrested is found guilty by being arrested, than it is a strange world you live in and not mine. Which I am glad I do not live in.

Mayet WWII and Vietnam were before my time so I'm sorry I dont know.

lol growing and learning..thats what its called these days? And just what and how am I suppose to grow and learn from my best friend being blown apart? Should I learn to be kind and patient to the poor down trodden muslim extremist who is enjoying 3 meals a day and a roof over their heads? While my best friend lays 6 feet under the ground for eterninty? HELL NO... If thats what you call learning and growing you can shove it

Hatred, anger, and vengeance. Do I posses those. I won't lie I do. I wish I could be in a room with the bastards that set up the IED for 10 minutes. Just me and them.

Do confuse bamboo cages with camp xray awright... They are none in the same.

Originally posted by Odium
Whompa1, they have not been guilty.

If everyone who is arrested is found guilty by being arrested, than it is a strange world you live in and not mine. Which I am glad I do not live in.

I will concede the fact that if they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time then by all means send them back home to their families. However if they are thought to be extremists or linked to anything remotely terroristic then they rot.

[edit on 29-10-2005 by Whompa1]

Should I learn to be kind and patient to the poor down trodden muslim extremist who is enjoying 3 meals a day and a roof over their heads?

Hmm....I think the US military recently 6000 prisoners (or something like that..anyone know?). Anyways....surely the US would not release 6000 guilty, red handed, convicted, trodden muslim extremist...would they? These people are there for suspicions and other things....not all of them are terrorist.

So, Whompa1, how do we decide if they are guilty or not-guilty without a Judge, trial and a jury?

ShadowXIX, you seem to miss one key point. Terrorism is an ideology. If we are to show our way of life as better and to force people out of that mindset we have to be better.

Torture, doesn't make us better. Arresting people and locking them away without a trial doesn't make us better. We are attempting to take a high ground against terrorists when we act more and more like them.

Also, think of it like this.

You are locked up, without trail by the United States for three years as an innocent person. They then let you go...three years of your life lost. That will end up making more and more terrorists. If these "people" wish to show the United States as a bad guy, once these people which [might] have been tortured go back...they probably do not like the U.S. anymore...fantastic tool for properganda.

"Come see what the Great Satan did to our Muslim brother!".

Oh...the...joy.

Originally posted by SportyMB
they're just going in to make sure they are treated in a way that follows the GC....treated how POW's should be treated.


I have a good understanding of what it's like "out there". And I agree, the POW's should be treated like POW's...not like kings and not like scum either

[edit on 29/10/2005 by SportyMB]

Terrorists Have No Geneva Rights. Al Qaeda is not governed by the Geneva Conventions, which applies only to international conflicts between states that have signed them.

Taliban fighters had an initial claim to protection under the conventions (since Afghanistan signed the treaties), they lost POW status by failing to obey the standards of conduct for legal combatants: wearing uniforms, a responsible command structure, and obeying the laws of war.


They fall under

Article 5 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which governs the treatment of civilians in occupied territories, states that if a civilian "is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the States, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in favor of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State." To be sure.


A civilian who is not a member of the armed forces, and has engaged in attacks on a country does not have Geneva convention rights like a soldier would. This is does not however condone torture, which is still prohibited by the Torture Convention and federal criminal law

The primary reason of the laws of war has been reciprocal treatment: We obey the Geneva Conventions because our opponent does the same with American POWs. That is impossible with al Qaeda. It has never demonstrated any desire to provide humane treatment to captured Americans.


Iraqie army soldiers are a whole different story and should be afforded all GC rights.

[edit on 29-10-2005 by ShadowXIX]

I never said there should be no trial or judge. Hell if they are guilty a trial and a judge won't matter either way. End result is still the same. And please enough with the torture crap. What would you have us do coddle these people, maybe whisper in their ears that everything is going to be ok? I'm sorry but flushing a koran is not torure. Nor are is anything else going on there considered torure not too mention they are not considered "soldiers" soo there go GC rights.

[edit on 29-10-2005 by Whompa1]