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PAK-FA Delayed: Financing Blamed for New Russian Fighter Delay

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posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 07:58 PM
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Yep, you heard it right.....delayed
Before responding, consider this past topic thread:
Russia to launch new F/A-22 competetor

Then consider this article:
Sukhoi asks Europe for fighter help

Then consider this past topic:
No Sukhoi Fighters to Be Delivered This Year

Seeing a trend here yet?
Claims followed by the always stressed factoid of lack of funding.
Then some who post in this forum wonder why and at how often some of us post lack of funding comments in Russian topics concerning new aircraft projects, etc?

Anyhow, to carry this one step further, I ran across this article today concerning the PAK-FA and started adding everything up.


Blame unsatisfactory government financing for the delays in the development of Russia’s next-generation fighter, say the designers of the platform, engine and radar.

The fighter, known by its Russian acronym PAK FA, will enter service five years later than originally planned, said Mikhail Pogosyan, head of Aviation Holding Company (AHC) Sukhoi.

The test program will begin in 2008, and the jet will go into mass production in 2015” if the promised financing comes through, Pogosyan said Aug. 17 on the sidelines of the Moscow International Aviation and Space Show, or MAKS 2005.


Going on to further mention:


Instead, a lack of funding has stalled work, Pogosyan and other industry officials said.

“The leading role in creating fifth-generation aircraft belongs to the United States, who invest hugely into this work,” Pogosyan said at a press conference at MAKS Aug. 18.

Financing Blamed for New Russian Fighter Delay

Evidently, the lack of funding issues does not stop the Russian press from continuing to roll out claims and assertions, eh?
A Revolution !! Russia Develops Plasma Stealth Tech

IMHO, let me know when the PAK-FA, or any other Russian aircraft project, actually flies, is tested, is approved and properly financed for serial production, and then enters service in Russian Air Force. Till then, the Russians better get a grip on that lack of funding issue.

My reasoning is this: if the Russians continue to lollygag, they will eventually fall behind China, the West, and ultimately the US in 5th Gen aircraft developments. Seemingly, the only good thing about this, is that the Russians will have more time to develop fighter-type aircraft equal to or superior to the F/A-22, etc.





seekerof

[edit on 27-10-2005 by Seekerof]



NR

posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 08:01 PM
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I dont know why Russia is making alot of countrys to join in, it shouldnt let other european countrys in their project because than they will give away some of its secrets..... i'm just happey our own fighter will be out in 2 years.



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 06:25 AM
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Or there is another reason....


The development of plasma stealth has resulted in the PAK-FA design brief becoming somewhat obselete, and it needs re-definied.

Its a feasible possibility, and they are using the cover of money to hide it - they maybe now think saying we have plasma stealth is not the smartest thing to be doing.



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 06:26 AM
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You might need them before that if Tony Blairs speech last night is anything to go by.

The reason Russia wants other nations to participate is the same reason that the Typhoon is a multinational programme. Building high spec modern fighters is cripplingly expensive for a single nation, that is also the reason the UK, amonf others, are risk sharing partners in the F-35 rather than just buyers of it.



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 10:20 AM
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Going by the tone of the comments in the original post( & his previous posts), i presume the author has some kind of a deep mallace against Russia and their efforts to build the PAK-FA.

It is an obvious fact that Russia does not have the same kind of money as the USA....and its another open secret that even the USA which has all the money in the world had its F/A-22 programme extensively delayed. Infact going by the recent fleet review, the just a few months back, the articles on Washington Post, etc.. i would be spared to believe that the F/A-22 programme is encountering more difficulites than the PAK-FA programme !


Look at this 2004 (not too outdated in the present context) article in an American publication :



F/A-22, which has already cost some $40 billion and could cost another $40 billion to complete.


Development costs have risen as well -- by 127 percent, the report said.


What's more, the Air Force plans to add extra air-to-ground missions to a plane designed for air-to-air combat, which could push costs up another $8 billion or more, the report said.

The GAO also found that the F/A-22's computer-based maintenance system has suffered glitches that cause the plane to miss a significant amount of test-flying time. The Air Force had hoped to get the plane to fly nearly two hours between maintenance events by this point in the program, but has been unable to do better than an average of 30 minutes, the report said.

The avionics gear is close to flying five hours between failures, he said. While the microprocessors are outmoded, they are ample for current mission requirements, and the plane has plenty of room to add computer gear.


www.washingtonpost.com...¬Found=true

another ....



The Air Force originally wanted to see the plane's sophisticated avionics, or electronics gear, achieve 20 hours of uninterrupted flying time without a software failure. When the plane couldn't achieve that, the Air Force changed its goal to flying five hours without a software failure. As of January, the plane could average no better than 2.7 hours.

In addition, the plane's microprocessor is an obsolete model no longer manufactured.

It's no surprise, then, that watchdog groups like the Project on Government Oversight are asking the Pentagon to put this sick puppy of a program to sleep.

www.defensetech.org...

crash pics :












link



I have to ask ... can anyone think of one recent aircraft that was delivered as per the schedule given at the inception of the project ? or one recent aircraft that did not have cost overruns ? What's the big deal if the same happens to the PAK-FA ?

Tell me if the USA wants to spend 40 billion $'s more on the F-22 programme ?

Also here's some new news on the JSF >> Dutch look to downsize JSF order

UK threatening to pull out of the F-35 JSF programme

Israeli participation in JSF terminated

Australia delays JSF decision

US Navy may go for the block3 F/A-18 E/F instead of the F-35 naval variant



__________________________




Originally posted by Seekerof
Sukhoi asks Europe for fighter help


Really ?

check this out as well on the F-35 >>


Infact lockheed martin engineers themselves had a major problem with this system and went to Russia for help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......in this is in addition to all the VSTOL tech they acquired from the British who made the Harriers.


Lockheed Martin's X-35 design has a trapezoidal wing planform which initially featured foreplanes, although these since deleted; STOVL version embodies a lift fan, shaft-driven by a modified F119 with a vectoring lift/cruise nozzle developed by Rolls-Royce; lift fan replaced by extra fuel in the CTOL version. Lockheed Martin also turned to Russia for technical expertise, purchasing design data from Yakovlev; and used an 86 per cent subscale model (originally developed for the CALF project and fitted with a Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 engine plus an Allison shaft-driven lift fan) for testing.

from the most trusted source that there can exist >> www.janes.com... ( credits to Daedalus3 for finding it )

The Yak-141's.




The Russians may not need any technical help whatsoever...it is only financial support that they seek by asking a wealthy & technologically advanced European nation to partner them in the project....as i said before.

Infact Yakolev have an even more advance version of this technoloy that they wish to incorporate into the 5th generation PAK-FA's VSTOL version

external image

View the larger picture of this

__________________



Then consider this past topic:
No Sukhoi Fighters to Be Delivered This Year


Did'nt you read my reply in the very thread ?

__________________

Getting to the PAK-FA :

1) The Irbis/Sokol AESA radar programme is a co-development with India and India are contirbuting significantly (100+ million $ of the 150 million $ project) to the funding portion of it if not technically. It is to be operational by 2010.

2) India have signed an MoU with the Russian engine maker of the PAK-FA to co-develop the 3D Thrust Vectoring, supercruise, low thermal signature, 15600kg thrust, Al-41F engines.

__________

I am not anti-american or anti-F/A-22, but this is only a reply to the intial post to point out a few facts.

[edit on 28-10-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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Seeker,

to a degreee I am suyre that is true, but I worry that they may be another reason.
Russia is well know for deciving the world in how and what it does.
I read it best described as," Russia is a mystery inside a puzzle, inside and enigma"
What does that mean, ity is always best if your emenies or potenial emenies think you are weak and helpless, before you spring on them with devistating force they never dreamed you had.

Seeker, I am not saying you are incorrect, but simply adding another possibility to the mix.
BTW-great pics and links.



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 11:37 AM
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The difference between the Pak-Fa and the F/A-22 is that the F/A-22 is done and here now, only some software tweaks are needed and the USAF wants lots more

compare:

f/a-22:


vs. pak-fa


the pak-fa, like almost every Russian plane except the modified Su-27's has been a paper plane. the Pak-fa is running into financial problems before anything has ever flown, while the F/A-22 is already froming its first operational squadron and will be combat ready in december.

[edit on 28-10-2005 by roniii259]



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by roniii259
The difference between the Pak-Fa and the F/A-22 is that the F/A-22 is done and here now, only some software tweaks are needed and the USAF wants lots more


Yes what you say is very true.

It is an undenyable fact that the F/A-22 and America are far ahead of the PAK-FA and Russia in terms of the extent to which their projects have progresses.

However, Russia are not making the PAK-FA alone. India is a partner for the radar and possibly the engines as well. Around 70% of both are complete from what i gather from various sources.

Russia is also seeking funding assitance from Europe as well. They may offer co-development to China as well. Further the Russian economy is doing well lately aswell.

The date for the first flight stated a few months back was 2007. So even if it goes upto 2015 because of various delays, the PAK-FA will still be a potent force.

Further, you might never know - a few classified info leaks here and there - like this will allow Russia to make up its lag without spending billions on R&D. Russia and China have swindled American sensetive nuke secrets in the past - so there's an outside chance for this proposition as well.



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 01:16 PM
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Here are some quotes from the article posted by Seekerof :

staging.defensenews.com...




The government is promising to boost PAK FA funding next year, he said, but has not provided budget details.

Defense spending overall is expected to rise in 2006, thanks to a seventh consecutive year of growth in the Russian economy.

Earlier in August, Finance Ministry officials released preliminary plans to boost defense spending 22 percent to 668.3 billion rubles ($23.4 billion), out of a total federal budget of 4.27 trillion rubles.



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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Russia develops Stealth Aircraft Using Plasma Screen Technology

source >> www.mosnews.com...




19.10.2005 12:10 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 12:10 MSK


MosNews


The Russian aircraft industry has developed and will soon start producing stealth aircraft which will radically differ from existing U.S. models. The Russian version uses plasma screens to cushion and disperse radar waves, the Novye Izvestia daily reports.

The newspaper quoted Anatoly Koroteyev, the head of the Keddysh Research Center as saying that the plasma screen technology can be used on any vehicle — from automobiles to combat aircraft. However, it is most effective at high altitudes and thus is best used by the air force.

Koroteyev said that the new technology employs a different physical principle than the one currently used by existing U.S. stealth aircraft — the F-117 and B-2. Instead of reflecting the radar wave the Russian technology completely disperses it by means of a plasma screen created by a mobile plasma generator.

*snip*

Koroteyev added that the new technology can be used on any aircraft, including older models and that it is radically cheaper than the technology employed by U.S. stealth planes while being just as effective, if not more so. He said that the aircraft equipped with the Russian system will also be far superior to U.S. models in their flight and combat capabilities — as the use of the plasma screen makes it unnecessary to alter the shape of the aircraft.



Mod Edit: Please only quote 1-2 paragraphs of the linked material Thanks


[edit on 10/29/05 by FredT]



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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StealthSpy, do you even read links and commentaries made?
Apparently not.
How so?
Take this for an example: you post up:


Russia develops Stealth Aircraft Using Plasma Screen Technology

Failing to realize that the article was and is already linked [in my initial posting of this topic] and being discussed, here:


Evidently, the lack of funding issues does not stop the Russian press from continuing to roll out claims and assertions, eh?
A Revolution !! Russia Develops Plasma Stealth Tech


You then go on with a PAK-FA booster rally and presentation of an aircraft project that you assert will ultimately be a "potent force" in 2015+/-.
How ludicrous.
You know such because?
You never once realize that if the lack of funding PAK-FA is ever built, tested, and approved for serial production around that alleged 2015 time date, that those Western already in service aircraft, like the Eurofighter, Rafale, F/A-22, and F-35, will have BLOCK evolved into more capable aircraft.

Then you point out the the costs of the F/A-22 to somehow make your ludicrous points more credible? $40 billion dollars spent on the F/A-22? So! It is built, in serial production, flying, and IN SERVICE, whereas, the PAK-FA is what? Hello?! Besides, the PAK-FA project thus far is already at the total cost of $10 billion plus, and still in need of funding! So lets see, by the time that the PAK-FA recieves adequate funding, the price will be what? Somewhere close to $30-40 billion, and will be how many years behind the F/A-22 and its BLOCK evolutions?

No, you, StealthSpy, totally missed the point of this topic and mentionings, as par. Nothing new, really.
That point being that claims and assertions about Russian vaunted aircraft projects and other technologies continues to be proclaimed, all the while, hardly ever reaching fruition, completion, because of the simple over and over stated lack of funding. Nothing but unfulfilled pipedreams.

The Russian government has been promising to boost funding to these so-called aircraft projects for quite sometime, you even quote another such mention that the Russian will increase funding to the PAK-FA next year. Again, nothing but open-ended promises for the sake of pacifying those aircraft companies working on those lack of funding aircraft projects. The Russian government promised such "increased funding" last year and the year before, to no avail. Maybe you can convince the largest buyer of Russian military hardware, India, to help fund those projects, huh? Oh wait, I thought the Russians did?

Anyhow, Russia continues to fall behind China, the West, and the US.
Let me know when those alleged PAK-FAs and other such aircraft projects make serial production, k? Till then, I will continue to count the number of Eurofighters, Rafales, and F/A-22s currently coming off the assembly lines.







seekerof

[edit on 28-10-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 02:46 PM
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You posted yesterday seekerof about the 35 and the problems it is currently having with funding or cuts by the gov. Now one "could" argue that russia has "similar" problems with getting enough funding for all of their "projects". I use all the quotes because i really dont believe for a second that if the sercumstances where there that russia wuld find the money. As for now i agree with seeker. Until a war happens or a major conflict as we call them now you wont really see a huge break throughs in russian tech. It more then likely will be the slow crawl we see now.

[edit on 28-10-2005 by Canada_EH]



posted on Oct, 28 2005 @ 10:17 PM
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China has already rejected the PAK-FA project in 2002 when Russia offered it because we are committed to our own J-XX project (everything unknown, super secret especially from China).

PAK-FA currently is only receiving funding from Russia and India.



posted on Oct, 29 2005 @ 03:56 AM
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Does anybody else think that PAK-FA sounds like a Klingon ritual from Star Trek?



posted on Oct, 29 2005 @ 06:45 AM
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Originally posted by waynos
Does anybody else think that PAK-FA sounds like a Klingon ritual from Star Trek?



Thats if you pronounce it all and don't spell it..

If I remember correctly the word for "fool" in klingon is "Pah-thak"!!


hello...I think i've figured wht you're confusing it with..
Pon-Farr!!
That vulcan thing which has something to do with an increased sexual drive!!
too funny!!..

My quota of laughs for the day is completed!!



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