On the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls..
Most of the time what I have learned about them is not what one learns on the History channel. While I like the history and discovery channels I am very careful about what I accept from them as fact.

My understanding of what they hoped to find in the Dead Sea Scrolls was some new and novel understanding of conditions up to the times of the New Testament era. This did not happen...hence the reluctance to get them published.

What was confirmed in the Scrolls was the bible descriptions of how people lived and believed in those times covered by these finds. In otherwords they gave credibility to what is written in the bible. The book that is preserved in its entirety from the bible is the book of Isaiah. Just as we have it today ...in the Hebrew and King James Versions.
There are other books but they are not all that complete and dont add much to the bible account.
The producers of these programs like the discovery and history channels like to dwell on them alot but if you know the pattern of occult mysterys it is obvious what they are doing and attempting to promote. It also helps to know the history of the Hebrews and their involvement in sneaking and accepting occult mystery religions into the Law they were given by God through Moses...and attempts to super impose this as the Law of Moses without most of the Hebrews being aware of it. Just as many Christians practice occult pagan traditions today without even being aware of it. So too was it with the ancient Hebrews. By the way ..this is the same pattern of seduction done by our politicians today. Often without us even being aware of much of it.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Question; Orangetom: Do you believe in God? Do you believe we are living in the endtimes? and if so, why?

You posted:

"Question; Orangetom: Do you believe in God? Do you believe we are living in the endtimes? and if so, why?"

Yes I believe in God..

No I dont believe in the end times as taught by most of what passes for Christianity today. Do I think we are living in end times ..no I dont. Much of what passes for "end times" taught by churchs is slick merchandizing for profit..not prophets.

Furthermore I do not belive in the god taught my much of what passes for Christianity today.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Intresting... Have you ever read the book the Bible Fraud, or the secret in the Bible by Tony Bushby? Hmm.. To tell you the truth, it seems scary sometimes that what you believe in, is not really true, it's a sort of control, i believe in God.... But this endtime # has been driven in your minds from since you were small.. hmmm...

And you know what's intresting, the Endtime events are not playing out to as how they like it to be played out....

AS I said..I dont believe in this end times stuff that is so popular today.

I will research this book and see what it is about.
I know a bit of history and also about bible history ..by this I mean the reason and rationale for many of the bible versions which are so popular today. This is not taught to most peoples so that they will "default" to the very beliefs of which you express in your postings. They simply dont have enough information to think outside of certain boxes...same with many athiests too. Same with many Pagans or Occultists....or Satanists/Luciferians.
I have had experience with many of these types of peoples. There exists certain knowleges in this world for which most people are not to be in possession. They are never to know this or think outside certain boxes so to speak..which is the focus of this thread......this way they can be controlled. This is not a line of thinking you will get in most churchs or even public schools for that matter.
This is a good thread for those who can follow it. Most people will think one is nuttier than that type of fruit cake. No problem.
Thanks for the title to that book ..I will check it out.

Orangetom.

I should tell you that years ago when it first came out I read that book mentioned by Michael Baigent titled Holy Blood Holy Grail.
Also books on the ark of the covenant and Knights Templars by ....as I recall ..Lincoln, leigh and Baigent.
So when I viewed several programs on the history channel on this topic I was already prepared for it. Also when the Da Vinci Code came out ..I was already tutored on this topic too.
I have in my private collection...several books on occult religions and some of them esoteric in nature. I use them for reference and pattern recognition. Some of these books quite olde.
My favorite is and very informative is " The Rosecrucians Their rites and Mysteries" by Hargrave Jennings..circa 1880.
What I look for in this type of religion is pattern recognition..not always what they say or present to the public. Same thing with politics..which is also a religion.....pattern recognition.

Keep this concept in mind...esoteric..occult. It will come up again in our conversations.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Right intresting, but I don't readily accept the idea of Jesus' Bloodline, but that could be another theory, maybe he did had one, have you ever heard of Selassie? Anyway, i think the Ancient Egyptian are intrested... What you think? Many christians brandish these estoric religions as demonic, what you think?

I think the stories of living decendents of Jesus is a occult/pagan technique to bring about thier philosophy of demigods here on this earth. The pagan dogma is actually the "restoration of the true brotherhood" under the guise of the "true religion" as they themselves describe it.
This is nothing but a disguised occult esoteric method of bringing the world back to pre flood religions and behaviors.
I have had dealings with pagans ..occultists ..Luciferians and they are often very knowlegable people in many things. They are not knowlegable in Salt or what it means.
I have learned one other thing about Luciferians ..true Luciferians ..they cannot give you the name of thier god...they will tell you themselves ..they have taken a oath...they cannot give you the name of thier god. A very unusual happenstance when you first experience it. This is very very telling to those knowlegable in history and the Word.

Do I believe Haile Selassie..is a decendent of King Solomon ..perhapsed...but that is not important...I do however believe that the Ethiopians are decendents or inheritors of the Hebrew religion.
What is known about the Ethiopian Hebrews..is that when they were recently immigrated to the nation of Israel ..they did not know the holidays and celebrations of todays jews. The Hebrew religion they practiced was of the type practiced in the time of King David and his son Solomon. Todays Hebrews/Jews have holidays and celebrations that have been incorporated since the destruction of Jerusalem and the priesthood/temple in 70AD by the Roman Armys.
In otherwords the Ethiopian Hebrews have been stuck in a kind of time warp..not tainted by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. A very unusual phenomonon. This is not told to most westerners.

The religion of Egypt is held up by many occultists as being part and parcel of the root religion of Paganism in one of its forms. Egypt is one of the oldest empires of any size recorded so it is natural that ancient religion would have origins there. Many occult groups use Egypt as sort of a starting point for their practices. There is a dark side so to speak of these religions in that they often had a face for the general public and another for the insiders or the royalty.. ..the Chosen. Sort of like politics today.
Or if you like you could say that the Egyptian style religion is still with us today..understand????? Just updated by technology but still the same practices..ie....pattern ..understand????? A secret Royalty among us not known by those who are subjected to it.!!!!
This pattern insiders and outsiders is part and parcel of the "demonic " of which you speak. Another word for insiders and outsiders is "feudalism"
I suppose you could take this further ..today in philosophy..which translates ...philo..love sophy ...wisdom ..love of wisdom... The ancient religions were often highly philosophical religions. Today this hidden doctrine in philosophy is sometimes called or described as Hegelian Dialectic..or thesis ..antithisis ...synthesis. A premise...the opposite of the premise..and the synthesis of the combining of the two...into the new meaning ..or synthesis. This is just a control mechanism...the trick is to get people to not know what it is..Just like many of these religions.

One more thing Crusader...many Christians are very ignorant of many things including Christianity. Most of them certainly havent a clue about most of these Occult Esoteric religions....and how they work unto our very day or even how they are constantly flashed in front of us by the media, education and even many so called Christian Churchs.
What many Christians have is the "feel good religion. " they havent a clue and their preachers arent about to teach them. NOt all of them mind you but a great many.

I will remind you Crusader..that in the history of the world..Religion is the most powerful political force ever..still is. Used in a certain manner it is the ultimate political power...always was and always will be. But that is another topic.


Thanks,
Orangetom

I have learned one other thing about Luciferians ..true Luciferians ..they cannot give you the name of thier god...they will tell you themselves ..they have taken a oath...they cannot give you the name of thier god. A very unusual happenstance when you first experience it. This is very very telling to those knowlegable in history and the Word.

Ahh, of course they can't give you the name of their God because it's nameless... They belong to the Cult of the All seeing Eye... A nameless God they do have..

But many occultists what they claim to be ancient beginnings of Masonry, what have you in Ancient Egypt, can provide you with no evidence, that these estoric religions existed , practised, or descended from Egypt

If it was so why didn't they take it from the Coptics? I believed now more than ever Jesus was an estoric teacher, and son of God. Orangetom, what is the diffrence between the Luciferans /satanists, the Masons? and those who practise Hinuisim, Orisha rites, etc.?

Well the Falashas, are supposed to be the Original Jews... But the whiter Jews will not want you to know that.

Bless until ... next post

I was trying to be somewhat discrete in where this was going but you seem to be able to follow it pretty much. I gather that you have done alot of homework per se on this line of thinking or have come into contact with others who have. If this is the case it is the same here. I have had good teachers some of with whom I am still in contact. This is how and why this topic of "control" was immediately recognizable to me.
This has to do with a line of thinking and history entitled the "Priest Kings" More on this line of thinking and history later.
I must make this brief as I need to make haste to work. I will post again tonight when I get off.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Anyway I must continue, people have been sold a lie for centuries and bought it.. I have been doing some researching especially on this KJV of the Bible, and man some deep stuff, starts to seep into the surface, like Masonic influnce on it's translation, by someone by the name of sir francis bacon, ever heard about him?

Any way do some dig up on him, very intresting all rounded educated Guy, and i think he was one of the first sect of the guess what? Free and accepted Masons or speculative masons, hmmm. It is said that he encoded some Hidden message in ps 119, in the KJV.. Anyway you are right religion has a large part to play in Control. Especially with misguided youth. Take for example the religious fervour of Jihadis.. You get the picture...

great topic .. very insightful posts on here .. sheds a lot of light on many things that are over the head of some, including myself.

i got to thinking .. if cheney is right now promoting a technique (physical torture) that only works in fictional scenarios (movies, tv) .. is he trying to test the current mind-state of people to see if fiction and reality have blurred in closer to the perception of people?

could be over-thinking it .. but just a thought.

so back in the day, the even censored the bible to being read by anyone who isn't of authority in the churches? pretty scary, wonder what's the reason they gave.

I have one problem with alot of the speculation on the King James Bible. That is if King James was all that they said or claim he was ...all about royalty..he would not have written the King James Bible and most certainly not put it in the hands of the public. I say this because of what happened historically after this version of the bible was released.
Remember ...the English already had a bible in English..it was called the Great English Bible and It was pretty popular. This is the version of the bible used by the settlers here at Jamestown when it was founded in 1607. The King James Version took some time to catch on with the public.
What many Englishmen began to understand was that their King was in heaven..not on the throne of England and the earthly king was limited in his power to administer just English laws...he was not a unlimited "Divine Right King" as was the case on the Continent of Europe. Divine Right of Kings meant that the kings crown was put on this head by the religious authority of the land and therefore his authority was from God not the people so his power was unlimited ..to go against a king was to go against God...Understand..???
When the English began to understand this clearly after the publishing of the King James Bible ..that their real King was in heaven and the King on the throne of England was only a administrator of Just English law...the earthly Kings power was limited. When King Charles 1st succeded after King James ...he wanted unlimited power ...to tax or whatever Kings want to do with it...and the Englishmen werent buying it..this resulted in a Civil War in England..it was very bloody. This is a war not spoken much about in history books.
When Englishmen settled this issue after years and years of Civil War..they captured the King and cut his head off on the chopping block. This had never been done in the history of the world...a ordinary people passsing judgement on thier King and executing him. This is very ..very bad news for the King club.
If King James had any idea what would come from the bible which was to bear his name ..he would never have published it. Very bad news for the king club. This could not happen in Catholic nations where the kings were divine right kings and had absolute power especially with the backing of the Roman Catholic Church.
After King Charles was executed no King of England dared to declare himself "Divine Right"
The death of "Divine Right of Kings was one of the first attempts of men at limited government. Yet you seldome hear about it next to its importance in history. I can gaurantee you that the founding fathers knew this history here in America and what it meant. They also knew historically what absolute power in the hands of a Government would do ..going back historically to Ancient Rome and before...even to the Ancient Hebrews ...with records of men of logic and reason getting into trouble by conspiracy in Government.
Divine Right of Kings ..putting limits on this type of mischief...in this country is called Seperation of Church and state...which was to be a limit on Government ..not a limit on the people to practice their religion . Seperation of Church and state was a limit on Government...all limits on power were always to be limits on Government ..not the public..this is where Government always wants to decieve people and they pervert the intent of the framers by seeding ignorance in this arena. The concept of Limited Government ..means limits on the Government ..not on the people. Yet they always want more power....never less...

I am aware of this speculation concerning Francis Bacon and the King James bible. There is also speculation in debating clubs where Sir Francis Bacon was the real author behind the works we know as Shakespeare.
I dont believe this because the nature of Masonry is feudal..they would not want to upset the feudal system. And the King James Bible in the hands of Americans ..did exactly this...upset the fuedal system. Americans are not by and large a royalty type people...All titles and degrees in Masonry are feudal titles and degrees...,Knighthoods...Feudal... This type of royalty thinking has to be sneaked or snuck back into the minds of Americans by public education ..otherwise most Americans wouldnt buy it.


Thanks,
Orangetom

Remember King Henry the Eight, why he separated and formed the Church of England? Why because they did not grant him access, to divorce his wife and marry another.. So if you take that in perspective then you will get the whole picture,..

On another thing on the KJUV bible and all other versions of the bible there are 14,800 diffrences between the world oldest bible and the 600+ versions we have today, isn't that a conspiracy of ultimate source? This religion aspect of control is really deep.. Take for example in stem cell research, etc. You get the picture..

Then we have the oldest Christian religious sect, The Christian Coptics in Egypt, and their paramount diffrence to the those who make up the majority of Christianity today

There is nothing moral or ethical or great about King Henry the Eighth. What he did was want power unto himself to get what he wanted and felt that he deserved. Nothing about his motives was noble.
What he figured out with help of his advisors..was that his position was more powerful if he set up himself as a English Pope. The head of his own Church. Once again ..religion is the most powerful political force. Ever. Henry wanted a Divorce. The Roman Catholic Church would not give it to him. So he became the head of his own Church and called it Anglican. It was just a English Catholic Church. Same buildings, Same rituals..., same priests ..only now Henry was the head of it and made his rules and got what he wanted.
Notice that this is not how your history books read. The books often refer to Henry as the first protestant leader or the leader of the first protestant church...rubbish. He was as greedy as all the rest of them. One can say alot of things about Henry the Eighth but ignorant concerning the nature of power and the exercise thereof is not one of them.
Henry merely set himself up as a English Pope. Nothing more. It was a continuation of the olde feudal Priest Kings system with Henry heading it up. Other than that ..nothing changed. It was just English control instead of Roman Catholic Church Control.
By the way ..this struggle continues to this day.

I am not exactly sure what is considered the worlds oldest bible per se.
I know that in the Olde Testament it was written in Hebrew..not Greek. Meaning translations are from the Hebrew Language not Greek. This awareness alone eliminates many of the bible versions.
Also many of the versions we have to day are from the Alexandrian texts which is a rendering from Greek from Adamantius Originese..or Origin. Same with the Septuigin. Same with the vaticanus 1209 or if I remember correctly it is also called the Codex B....all from Classical Greek versions...out of Alexandria, Egypt.
I do know that there was another line of bible works that did not come out of Alexandria, Egypt and I dont recall if the Coptic texts come from this line. I dont think so. I believe thier versions come from the Hebrew in the olde testament and the (common Greek)Koine Greek versions in the New Testament. It is from these common Greek and Hebrew versions that the King James Version is translated..not the Classical text versions out of Alexandria, Egypt.
I cant quite recall..but I believe the Coptic versions became the Greek Orthadox versions...not the Roman Catholic versions. In the western nations this survives through the King James Bible ..not the other versions out of Alexandria , Egypt.

Alexandria, Egypt is the place where the Gnostic wisdom religions took root and tried to blend into Christianity. This is not the route taken by the Apostles. This is known information but often not passed along to Christians today through thier churchs and preachers as many preachers go to bible colleges where they teach the Alexandrian versions along with concealed Gnosticism.
Bible Colleges have done much to weaken the faith in America through seducing preachers to Gnosticism and logic and reason instead of Faith.
Gnostic is another word for Paganism...and tending twords Occult ..or concealment. Many preachers today are knowingly involved in this seduction. They know what is going on in this arena but dont tell thier sheep. They are not ignorant. They too are working to bring back the olde Priest Kings system of Ancient times.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Offer them money, and they will do anything: go to war, become a sex toy, work in your sweatshop factory, lie to the friends, mow your lawn and pick up Fido's lawn decorations. Moral's sold for the price of fiat money.

Mammon worship...play it or die.

Hmm intresting views here. but alot of people do not want to know what is going on, and how they are being controlled and being decieved. It's way over their heads, lol. But Orangetom, what do u consider the true religion and all that?

I will begin by telling you what I do not consider the "true religion." The "true religion" is a expression used by occult practicioners to cover what they really want to do...that is to counterfit the religion of Jesus the Christ for remission of sins. Just as in the days of the Hebrews who secretly tried to overlay another religion on the Law of Moses and pass it off as if it was the Law of Moses ...occultists today ..are trying to do the exact thing the Hebrews of Ancient times were doing. I do not consider this the "true religion."
I have had this phrase used several times in my presence " The true religion" It always flashes an alarm when I hear it from someone else awakening me to pay particular attention. Same with the expression "the restoration of the true brotherhood". This too is a watchword for this counterfit system.
Counterfits ..or phoneys is a method of control also. The counterfit does not look the opposite of the real thing but as close to the real thing as possible so as to be able to pass for the real thing. "The true religion " is a counterfit as is the "restoration of the true brotherhood."
When you begin to learn about counterfits ...the knowlege of control naturally follows.
I am also aware by this that much of what passes for Christianity is in fact a counterfit...made to appear Christian but is in fact not. The irony of this is that it is often so well done that many so called Christians dont have a clue that there are wolves among the sheep. Once again ..ironically ..more knowlegable pagans are aware of this than Christians.
There are other words and phrases which flash alarms but these will do for now. Good question you asked Crusader.
When you begin to notice the patterns you spot many things around you and in the media..from the actual programing to the advertisements. I often switch channels on the tube when I detect them or use my remote to turn the radio off or to another station when I detect this....especially in the advertisements.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I have posted this before..on ATS so I am going to do this again as it has been awhile.

One of the problems with our affluent social structure is the concept of amusement..or being amused.

The very word or more accurately the letter "a" when you look it up in a dictionary...like Websters Collegiate Dictionary among many of the definitions of the letter "a" you come to the concept for the letter "a" meaning " without" The letter "a" means.....without.

In this case the word....amuse means ...a without... muse ..thinking. Without thinking...amuse.

This is important as a index or telltale about many things around us because we have the side word..amusement. Amusement is something many people have been conditioned or controlled to do because thinking is very difficult. Many avoid it for a lifetime. Hence we have our sports or soaps...or talk shows ..or whatever...et al. All designed to keep us amused or in a state of amusement to keep us from really thinking. Outside of our jobs we are surrounded and bombarded by amusements. In this manner we often default to "experts" to make our decisions for us so that we have more time for the important things in life..like amusement. This is not accidental. It is control and amusements are a important part of the control formula.
The problem you have Crusader is that you are trying to muse...not amuse..and it can be difficult to break years of conditioning.

I keep this view in mind when reading books or watching the news or some program on the tube...as long as you have this as natural background by which to filter out so much of that which bombards us daily you can strain it out for worthwhile knowlege and discard the rest. The method of this world is to give us so much confetti that we no longer know the difference in what is valuable and not.
Knowing the difference in Muse or musing and amuse ...helps alot. I prefer to be mused..not amused.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Hmmm very intresting posts I must say orangetom... The particular case with amusement, hmm, what another way to control people provide them with amusement or entertainment... Hmm reminds you very dearly of the hollywood establishment. Look at the amount of time people spend on following the trades, and the tabloids on their fav star , woes and troubles, it's almost a cult and following, they know more about their fav idol than they know themselves, lol(Don't worry we have all been a victim of this including myself)

The amount of money being spent on theatres is mindblowing nonetheless... Although in recent years they have experienced a downslide... But you get where I am coming from...

Be Bless till next time