Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by zappafan1
Christian versus Muslim; One God tells it's people to love one another and to help those in need. and one God (?) who says it is right to kill in the name of its religion. It boggles the mind to think how peace between these two mindsets can ever be achieved.

Where?

If you bother to learn Arabic you would know the Qu'Ran says not to harm any child of the book/people of the book, unless they have wronged you first.

So please, do show me where he says it is O.K. to kill and play my game like the last bunch of people have done. :-)

I look forward to it.

I think for either Christianity or Islam you have to look at their history rather than their holy books because neither Muslims or Christians have historically followed the message of their religion.

zappafan - BOTH Christ and Allah have been used to justify killing innocent people. Christianity is just as guilty as Islam in this regard.

Odium - you should look into India's history, particularly the period when the Muslim Shahs invaded and took power for several centuries. Plenty of children (and people in general) were killed (in very painful and gruesome ways) because they refused to convert to Islam. The unlawful and utterly inhumane occupationg of India by the Muslim invaders is the reason the Sikh religion even exists.

I don't know what you think guys,but in my view if Iran is close to the "point of no return" and still the slogans "Death To Israel" are written on their rockets on their military parades...then I'll wonder why Israel don't just bomb them with whatever means it had to ensure no retalliation is possible...After all if the iranian people are not interested in their own faith,why the israelis must risk their own?

I will just remind you "Operation Opera" when the IAF destroyed the Iraqi Nuclear Reactor at Tamuz...All the Western Countries condemned Menahem Begin...But in 1993 when the true extent of the iraqi WMD program was revieled Bill Clinton and Shimon Perez(political opponent of Begin who also attacked him after the bombing) sended letter to him to thank him...Believe me if Iraq was nuclear capable back than the World wouln't be like it is today...

[edit on 26-10-2005 by ZMax]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by ZMax]

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
Odium - you should look into India's history, particularly the period when the Muslim Shahs invaded and took power for several centuries. Plenty of children (and people in general) were killed (in very painful and gruesome ways) because they refused to convert to Islam. The unlawful and utterly inhumane occupationg of India by the Muslim invaders is the reason the Sikh religion even exists.

He said "children of the book". Last time I checked Buddhists and Hindus were not big on the Biblical scene like Jews, Christians and Muslims are.

My God, how does one even begin to try to counter 60 years of brainwashing? "Communist beasts", "Islamic terror", "caliphates". I asked for proof of Iranian nuclear weapons programme that didnt surround the White House's "strong beliefs" and was given a link to the U.S State Department website!

Maybe humanity deserves this. We're mostly dumb enough.

[edit on 26/10/05 by subz]

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
Odium - you should look into India's history, particularly the period when the Muslim Shahs invaded and took power for several centuries. Plenty of children (and people in general) were killed (in very painful and gruesome ways) because they refused to convert to Islam. The unlawful and utterly inhumane occupationg of India by the Muslim invaders is the reason the Sikh religion even exists.

Yep, I do know of their actions in India and other regions - World over, but the problem is that so many Nation's have done the same thing. Look at the European Empires. Look at the thousands of cultures they destroyed to make the World a better place. People keep on making out like this is only Islam and it is their problem, when in fact it is a problem all humans seem to have.

Jew.
Christian.
Muslim.
Atheist.
Or any Religion in the World.
Or sany Culture in the World.

It is about time people stop going terrorist and blaming it on their religion and look at the route of the problem, which is not Islam. How can it be Islam's fault if they do not live by the codes it sets down?

Time and time again the Catholic Church gets away by saying it isn't their fault, they didn't follow the book, God didn't want it...yet what it is Islam the same arguement isn't accepted? Sorry, doesn't work well for me.

Actually, to make it even easier.

When at work, I had a book to read which told me how to order things. If I do not go by the book, I end up going wrong and the mistakes I make which could cost the company money I have to pay.

Think if that company was Islam.
If you do not follow the book you are not Islamic.
You can say you are, you can pretend you are but if you do not live by it you are not.

Now, feel free to quote parts of the Qu'Ran to back yourself up [goes to anyone] because as many people have seen, I know it like the back of my hand and I know enough Arabic to get me by in the Middle East...so...

Subz, are we certain the Iranian President actually said these things? It seems like such a counterproductive thing to say.

Odium;

Can you explain why almost all global religious terrorism is caused by groups of Islamic origin? Why most separatist terrorists are Islamic? What is it about Islam that fuels this behavior?

Well, I just read on BBC that several world leaders have condemmed the Iranian President's speech, so it must have happened--forget my question. On first examination it seems like an utterly stupid thing to say. Let me think about it some more as he must have seen some gain either for himself or the country by giving that speech, I'll just have to try to figure out what that gain is.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by Astronomer68]

Try this on for size.

I'm assuming the Iranian government thinks there is a real possibility of several Islamic nations openly establishing ties with Israel now that Israel has abandoned the Gaza. By establishing ties (relations) these countries would be openly endorsing Israel's right to exist in a concrete way. Such a move would undermine Hamas and hamper Iran's support of terrorist activities, both in Palestine and around the world. Iran may count on the speech to intimidate other countries and prevent such recognition, or at the very least delay it. If that is the case, the question is what does Iran gain?

Several things come to mind, but I don't have any way to really evaluate them.
1. Keeping the pressure on Israel prevents, or slows the U.N.'s nuclear investigation, thereby buying time to complete work on whatever it is they are working on in that field. This would suggest they are indeed working on a nuclear weapon and are fairly close to finishing it.
2. Governments more friendly to Israel would be less likely to supply men to carry on the fight inside Iraq. The ramifications of this are clear enough.
3. Keeping the pressure on Israel somehow supports Syria and keeps them from caving in to world pressure concerning their Lebanese activities. I'm not at all sure what compensation Iran would get from this. Except perhaps the avoidance of additional world pressure on themselves if Syria caves.
4. The Iranian government is under pressure at home from the reformers and keeping pressure on Israel allows the Ultra conservative groups to focus attention away from domestic issues. This is a common enough tactic on the world stage and generally benefits the group in power.
5. By being openly hostile to Israeli existance, at least verbally, Iran sets the stage for world condemnation of Israel should they take matters into their own hands over the nuclear issue. Israel would be condemned anyway, but this might trigger sanctions as well and further isolate the U.S., when and if they vetoed either the condemnations and/or sanctions.

I'm sure there are other things involved, but none of them come to mind at the moment. Of course this could all be about some perceived personal gain for the President.

Help me out here folks, shoot holes in the above, add new theories, etc.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by Astronomer68]

Come on...Iran is asking for war now!!!

It's as if they're saying "Why don't you attack us already you bloody cowards?!?!!?" giving everyone the finger.

Surely Bush will now go to war with Iran, as it just gave Bush a legitimate reason to invade.

Originally posted by Manincloak
Come on...Iran is asking for war now!!!

It's as if they're saying "Why don't you attack us already you bloody cowards?!?!!?" giving everyone the finger.

Surely Bush will now go to war with Iran, as it just gave Bush a legitimate reason to invade.

I don't think his words qualify as a legitimate reason to invade, but he sure won't be getting any Christmas cards from the White House this year. Saber rattling is common from over there; it will take an overt act to start the dance.

I think the trigger happy Americans on this board need to understand that invading Iran would spark a major war, probably a world war. If you attack Iran, Syria will attack Israel (Iran and Syria have a blood pact) and an attack on either nation will probably lead to a global war aswell...So does America want to go down in history as invading Iran and starting a World War?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Odium;

Can you explain why almost all global religious terrorism is caused by groups of Islamic origin? Why most separatist terrorists are Islamic? What is it about Islam that fuels this behavior?

So I guess the I.R.A. never happened?

Anyone ever think, just maybe it is because their region is the one with the most internal problems? Little bit of common sense goes a long way.

Originally posted by infinite
I think the trigger happy Americans on this board need to understand that invading Iran would spark a major war, probably a world war. If you attack Iran, Syria will attack Israel (Iran and Syria have a blood pact) and an attack on either nation will probably lead to a global war aswell...So does America want to go down in history as invading Iran and starting a World War?

I think that since the world knows the US is "trigger happy", does the Iraaian president want to go down in history as being the cause of WW3?

Besides begging for an attack, I think the speech was for another reason-imo.
His grip on power may be much less secure than we think.
In the past the best way to gain favor with the Iranians is to attack-verbally- the US and Israel. They all cheer get very muslium and nationistic and cheer togather.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Can you explain why almost all global religious terrorism is caused by groups of Islamic origin? Why most separatist terrorists are Islamic? What is it about Islam that fuels this behavior?

What about Jewish terrorism? St.David Hotel bombing against the British in Palestine and the numerous Christian bombings across America aswell...

Isn't abit racist to single out Muslim when the rest have blood on their hands too?

Quick Question:

Why is it O.K. for Israel to say that Iran should be bombed but not for Iran to say Israel should be?

Originally posted by Odium
Quick Question:

Why is it O.K. for Israel to say that Iran should be bombed but not for Iran to say Israel should be?

Dude, dont go there......

One word though...

Zionism.

Originally posted by Odium
Quick Question:

Why is it O.K. for Israel to say that Iran should be bombed but not for Iran to say Israel should be?

hmmm, could it be that Iran makes statements like Israel should be wiped off the map and anyone reconizing Israel will burn in hell fires-implying nuclear weapons usage.
While Israel wants to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapons so it can't use them.
I think you will not find any statements from Israel saying Iran should be wiped off the face of the earth or that anyone reconizing Iran will burn in hell fire
Hmmm, seeems like good reasons to me.

[edit on 10/27/2005 by mrmonsoon]

Where do you get off claiming that because Ahmadinejad uses the phrase "Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury", he explicitly means nuclear weapons? So when every two bit Christian preacher talks about the fire's of hell he is in actual fact refering to the clandestine nuclear weapons the church has?

[edit on 27/10/05 by subz]