National Service, to be or not to be?

I was being lazy this morning watching television when an interesting subject came on The Wright Stuff, this subject being National Service.

The idea of National Service did have a high end amount of support on The Wright Stuff this morning, those for the re-introduction of National Service stood at 94%, no prizes for guessing those against stood at 6%.

This subject often gets bogged down in debate about how we can’t force the youth into military service potentially to die in some foreign land they couldn’t give a damn about.
But this morning I was pleasantly surprised at how the debate focused itself, National Service doesn’t have to mean military service, and lets face it conscripting people to fight yields a bloated and low-quality military.

There is a near limitless potential in a national service as long as it is done correctly, the military should indeed be an option but think of the countless other organisations out there that could massively benefit from the skills and fresh ideas of possibly tens of thousands of 16 to 20 years olds.

Just off the top of my head and from the program this morning I can think of: NHS, Schools, Colleges, Military, Local Councils (removing litter, graffiti), but I’m sure the collective contribution of ATS members could think of many more.

At first thoughts the idea of putting these people on the front lines of potentially dangerous organisations such as the military and the NHS could make you cringe, it doesn’t exactly fill me with happy thoughts either.
But who says they have to serve on the ''Front Line'' so to speak, instead of putting those on National Service on the front lines why not in the example of the Military put them on the logistics side, still not 100% safe but we don’t want to wrap the youth of day in cotton wool or otherwise god help us.

I am against National Service being a forced issue, I think the state should provide the opportunity for National Service but it should not force people into it, otherwise National Service will be viewed as the state trying to control people lives.

Anyway, discuss


[edit on 25-10-2005 by UK Wizard]

It might seem odd to many, but I think the idea of National Service would be a good idea but not in the way many people view it.

I think we [World Over] need a system similar to what the Swiss have, when you turn 18 you have to do between 12months and 24months working for the state in a number of ways.

The Government, always needs more Police, FireFighters and so on and so fourth so that the people in the area could select what they wish to do, till the places fill up. [First come first serve basis.]

I think, it would help a lot with respect for Police officers, firefighters and so on and so fourth. Which is something we are lacking. It'd be paid and it would boost the number of Police, Firefighters and so on by a massive amount and could really help stop a lot of the problems we have now.

[Paid, I do not mean on the level that a normal Police officer will but enough so they can get by.]

I think we [World Over] need a system similar to what the Swiss have, when you turn 18 you have to do between 12months and 24months working for the state in a number of ways.

The Swiss always seem to come up with good ideas.

The Government, always needs more Police, FireFighters and so on and so fourth so that the people in the area could select what they wish to do, till the places fill up. [First come first serve basis.]

With that I see a problem, in order to be Firefighters for example they will need expensive training which will not be financialy viable due to the person on National Service only being there for a maximum of two years.
Maybe as Auxiliary firefighters, preparing kits, working the phones, dealing with fire awareness, that type of thing.
I don't really know to what extent you think they should be for example firefighters.

[Paid, I do not mean on the level that a normal Police officer will but enough so they can get by.]

Very similar to the set for me at the moment, I'm working as a volunteer via CSV, the college I'm working at pays my rent/water/gas/electric and gives me some money for food and a small amount to spend on what I want.
Not rolling in the money but I can survive on it quite happily been as my other costs are paid for.

I'm not that sure it would, I do believe it only takes about three months of training to become a fully fledged FireFighter an if you think about it, a lot of the skills they learn would be very helpful in later life.

The same can be said about Police men and I think the impact on people having worked in the Police force, could see a much larger change all over society. How many people would be abusive towards a Police officer, if they themselves have had to go through it for years?

You also have jobs like street cleaners, which again might do the same - cutting down on the amount of litter. Bin men and so on and so fourth. I honestly think, if the Swiss can train a soldier in 3months and put them in the military for 21months, we should be able to do the same for a Police offcier or Firefighter.

Originally posted by Odium
I'm not that sure it would, I do believe it only takes about three months of training to become a fully fledged FireFighter an if you think about it, a lot of the skills they learn would be very helpful in later life.

wow, I thought it would be at least six months maybe up to a year due to the difficultly of the job, I still don't think the volunteers should be working on the ''front line'' of jobs such as firefighting, but as I mentioned in my last post, instead they could take on the role of Auxiliary, for several jobs however this would be unnecessary.

What are you thoughts on National Service including front line military action?
and
Do you think people should be forced to do National Service?

[edit on 25-10-2005 by UK Wizard]

I do not think front-line Military would be a good idea, I think it is unfair to the people who do the job because they want to and to those who are forced too. However, there are many other aspects of the military they could do with little to no training. This could include things such as cargo checks, moving stuff off and on planes, ships and so fourth.

The same could be sed for firefighters, not being invovled in rescuing people from the buildings but using things like the hose are fairly straight forward.

I am also a fan of it being compulsary. As well as showing people what these groups have to go through, they would have a record by 21 of their attendance at work, a good reference and many skills which can be used in many jobs as well as education. A lot of National Service based careers [for the year to two years] will help in later life, things like the military do put a discipline into your life which many people need.

Originally posted by Odium
I do not think front-line Military would be a good idea, I think it is unfair to the people who do the job because they want to and to those who are forced too. However, there are many other aspects of the military they could do with little to no training. This could include things such as cargo checks, moving stuff off and on planes, ships and so fourth.

In agreement with you there.

The same could be sed for firefighters, not being invovled in rescuing people from the buildings but using things like the hose are fairly straight forward.

And again, in agreement with you there.

I am also a fan of it being compulsary. As well as showing people what these groups have to go through, they would have a record by 21 of their attendance at work, a good reference and many skills which can be used in many jobs as well as education. A lot of National Service based careers [for the year to two years] will help in later life, things like the military do put a discipline into your life which many people need.

Now this is where I don't think I agree with you, I agree along the lines of ''they would have a record by 21 of their attendance at work, a good reference and many skills which can be used in many jobs as well as education'', but I believe if people were forced into doing it by the Government I suspect they would refuse point blank to do National Service simply because the Government is telling them to do National Service.

It also bring up the issue of Government interference in peoples lives.
Other issues that I can think of could include: interfering with education, interfering current career, temptation to use those on National Service as cheap labour.

[edit on 25-10-2005 by UK Wizard]

Well the thing is, with National Service, many people have to do it World Over and you see very few people who do not do it. At first it'll be hard to get people interested, this whole generation are lazy to be honest [my own generation.]

However, give it two generations of people having to do it again and I doubt there will be as high a problem as you suspect.

If it means that we get to take home a SiG 550 every weekend as with the Swiss, and that the majority of homes have a SiG P226 with 50 rounds of ammunition - then I'm all in favour of it.

Also a perfect solution to violent attacks on pensioners, city centre thugs on a Friday night, home invasions, mugging, slum housing estates, noisy neighbours and third lane hoggers on the motorway

Perfect - just what the UK needs, might I suggest a few LAWs as well - perfect for clearing Gypos off wasteland camp sites and dealing with clusters of hunt saboteurs.

Actually, something which goes along with these lines.

Just last night an old man down my road was attacked by a group of teenagers, they were about 14 to 17 and fire-bombed his car. Now, he lives 8houses down from me and me and my friends were outside at the time it happened.

Old guy came out and one of the kids hit him, me and my friends being how we are went down there and well...to cut a story short, we ended up in a cell for 3hours even though the guy said it wasn't us. When the Police got there [who I called], they went to grab one of my friends who was...brawling...with one of the kids and actually let the guy get away.

This Nation is falling apart. In my town of 49,000 people we have had 200 arson attacks this year alone. 200... and I think part of it is down to numbers of Police officers, we have 8 on duty at night on a thursday. 8. Last night there were more kids doing that, then the were Police so as per-normal they don't dare get involved. [Even though the Police station is 5minutes walk from here.]

In England we have voluntary military training, in most private schools it's compulsory for a year and then they can choose to continue it. I'm in it voluntarily and I love it. The other people who are in it are also good people, with responsibility and discipline. When I look at some of my mates who aren't in it, they really annoy me because of their little petty problems. Also it serves as a great recruiting place, I for one have decided to join the Royal Marines as an Officer when I'm older.

Originally posted by Odium
Actually, something which goes along with these lines.

Just last night an old man down my road was attacked by a group of teenagers, they were about 14 to 17 and fire-bombed his car. Now, he lives 8houses down from me and me and my friends were outside at the time it happened.

Old guy came out and one of the kids hit him, me and my friends being how we are went down there and well...to cut a story short, we ended up in a cell for 3hours even though the guy said it wasn't us. When the Police got there [who I called], they went to grab one of my friends who was...brawling...with one of the kids and actually let the guy get away.

This Nation is falling apart. In my town of 49,000 people we have had 200 arson attacks this year alone. 200... and I think part of it is down to numbers of Police officers, we have 8 on duty at night on a thursday. 8. Last night there were more kids doing that, then the were Police so as per-normal they don't dare get involved. [Even though the Police station is 5minutes walk from here.]

I'm sickened by what the country has become. I started a thread recently about standards of behaviour in the UK and was told that things really aren't that bad. Talking with friends and relatives who still live there convinces me otherwise, your post just confirms it.

Originally posted by mashup
In England we have voluntary military training, in most private schools it's compulsory for a year and then they can choose to continue it.

This is a example of the small scale but potential of such ideas, currently small scale ''training'' limited to private schools and the like benefit those who undertake them. But if everyone had the chance (and choice) I believe the benefits would be widely seen.

I for one have decided to join the Royal Marines as an Officer when I'm older.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
I'm sickened by what the country has become. I started a thread recently about standards of behaviour in the UK and was told that things really aren't that bad. Talking with friends and relatives who still live there convinces me otherwise, your post just confirms it.

I guess it comes down to personal opinion, some things are better somethings are worse, there has to be some improvement due to better living standards and a better economy but other things are indeed in my opinion getting worse.

Discipline as a whole leaps to mind, resulting in binge drinking, lack of respect for others, disrespectful students, violent crime etc etc

[edit on 29-10-2005 by UK Wizard]

Actually UK Wizard, quite a few state schools do have it, like mine. Otherwise people can join outside of school.

It takes alot of training to make someone a policeman, fireman or soldier.

Either everyone loses around 5 years of their life to the state when they turn 18 to make it worthwhile or huge swathes of the nations youth turn into little more than glorified tea ladies and pen pushers.

Having said that I can definately see a need for some sort of military system to deal with the complete arses you see on street corners all the time.

Perhaps have National Service as a legal punishment, if you act like a total tosser then you are sent to a military camp a long way from anywhere and given military training and put to work as a civilian auxillury, street cleaning, construction and all the other little jobs that need doing.

A two year stint in a work camp system might do people a world of good.

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Having said that I can definately see a need for some sort of military system to deal with the complete arses you see on street corners all the time.

Perhaps have National Service as a legal punishment, if you act like a total tosser then you are sent to a military camp a long way from anywhere and given military training and put to work as a civilian auxillury, street cleaning, construction and all the other little jobs that need doing.

A two year stint in a work camp system might do people a world of good.

It does that the possibility of backfiring as well. There might be "smart" youth that decide they will do what they need in the National Service to get buy and learn fun new ways to wreak havoc and still be a tosser.....

On a side note.... what is a tosser anyway?

Literally a tosser is someone who masturbates, so tosser is a slightly politer way of saying wanker. Similarly to toss off is to... well you get the idea.

Its just another derogatory term for scum and layabouts, since it insinuates that they have nothing better to do than batter people and conduct the solo symphony.

I think it would be a great idea in our Country to have National Service! Not only will it disciplin them it will also teach them the basics of survival!

Most people (including myself) leave school / college with no idea what is going on and no idea how to respect others and yourself.

Military service...well I am against it but at the moment I'm "open" to listening to what the "other" side says about it..

The last thing we need to do is to give the yobby little ****heads a skill in being able to use a weapon.

If yobbish kids act this way outside the armed forces, they will be the same within the services.

The idea that this will work is preposterous. The armed forces has become softer on recruits and service personel in the last 10 years (even more so after incidents like Deepcut). Some people will not understand the idea of discipline and respect because they don't have to understand these values. They will continue to be happy with their lives, getting smoked up, drinking etc... and eventually having a few children of their own to cause the same social problems that they themselves have caused whilst living in culture where individuals are financially better off on welfare with children than to actual work for a living.