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A genuine case....would it be ignored by people here?

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CX

posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 05:17 AM
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I asking this purely out of curiosity. I have been a member here for a few months now and have enjoyed the wealth of information that is shared on this site. I have especially enjoyed learning about UFO cases,the seemingly genuine cases as well as the fakes.
Having viewed many of the replies to peoples posts though, i do wonder if a genuine case would be wasted or rubbished by people here should it arise. Maybe it already has?
I know it is plainly obvious that some of the reported incidents are fakes, but you can tell that some people are very genuine in what they post. Maybe they have no knowledge about the whole UFO thing and are just posting what they see. Nine times out of ten it still gets rubbished.
Even cases such as the ET being interviewed video that can be viewed here, whilst it appears to be one of the most convincing pieces of footage to date, it is doubted by many.
I personaly do not believe that a genuine case here would be believed unless it landed on your front lawn and beamed you up personaly. I would like to see a case one day where people don't pick holes in it just because they can't explain it any other way. I have to say i am a little suprised by the reaction to peoples alleged sightings here on ATS. I always thought it was a site where people were a little more open minded and open to the possibility that people can indeed experience encounters that are not the norm. I think i refer more so to the people who raise the BS flag immediately they see a post they can't comprehend. Who is anyone to raise the BS flag if they were'nt there?
It's almost as though people won't believe unless they have experienced the same thing or unless they can copy and paste info they have found on the web, either supporting or rubbishing the theory. Just because someone experiences something that you have'nt, and have not heard of, does that make it wrong or fake? Not everyone can provide evidence to support thier claims, i think this is where the immediate bombardment from the forum comes into effect.
I feel sorry for the ones that are genuine and who are purely expressing a desire to share thier excitement, even more of a shame is when you can see someone here getting slated for something they've said, you can almost hear them walking out, slamming the door and giving the finger to everyone! Lets hope this does'nt stop them wating to share other experiences.

I appreciate that the many people here are very knowledgable in the many subjects we discuss here, and i mean no disrespect to those who go out of thier way to provide valid reasons which explain someones experience. There are times when the wealth of information here can be used to explain away something just like that.

Maybe people get so paranoid about the governments telling so many lies, some of us adopt that attitude with everything people post. I have to admit i find it quite sad that someone could go through life that suspicious. Lets hope they don't end up "the most suspicious person in the graveyard" due to stress".

Anyway, this is merely an opinion, not a put down of any individual in particular. I just wondered what others thought about this? Do you think a genuine case would be debunked either way?

Thanks,

CX.




posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 05:43 AM
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I think there's hope in humanity after all. Some cases are actually fake, and often they 'stink' of it, so even if it doesn't get debunked an ordinary dismissal is often in place. Well, gotta go 'n' see if my car starts up in this cold, cold, harsh country of northern Sweden.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 06:02 AM
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I think that any UFO case no matter how valid will undoubtably have its debunkers,not just here on ATS but everywhere,it's human nature...From birth were led to believe that there's nothing more to this world than what you read in the history textbooks and so to many people thats all there is.

If you posted a pic of yourself being probed by a grey you would hear that its just a guy in a rubber suit making fetish porn.For some reason there are those that are gifted or cursed with knowledge that others will never comprehend but they pass on their story because they think it will help others realize the bigger picture.Ive come to the conclusion that this knowlege isnt for eveyone and trying to teach anyone about it is futile,when your meant to know you will see with your own eyes and experience feelings you could never imagine.

Once you really know..it matters very little what anyone else thinks anyway but its sad in a way that people will throw away valid information because its not main stream or because governments say it doesnt exist.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 06:13 AM
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My thoughts are, with such a diversed group of people posting their thoughts and input on ET events, you will always get yay or nay responses.

UFO sightings real? I think so, but I could probably never prove one to be legit.
You can only base your assumption on the information provided in each individual case. Some events may resemble others in which makes them even more believable, alas... if the preceeding event is proven a hoax, then all consequent events that resemble it fall under the same realm.

I also believe that due to the subject itself, UFOs/ETs/etc., some people may not want to proactively post in support of the event in fear of being ridiculed, while on the other hand, people in a negitive status on the subject have nothing to loose by posting their disbeliefs. The burden of proof falls on the one making the claim. Responses may seem one sided thus making an unbalanced assessment (sp) of the overall post.

I myself believe in UFOs, by defintion. Although I have a hard time accepting the abduction stories.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 08:02 AM
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You will see that the folks who get "debunked" invariably get debunked because they go on the defensive, stop posting and disappear, utterly fail to answer pertinent questions when the story starts falling apart.

I assure you if someone were to come to this site with physical, empirical, logically written testimony or any other form of "evidence" of a genuine encounter it would be recognized as one.

We have several that are as yet "unsolved" and frankly, with a lack of physical evidence that's as far as they can go.

One thing I really detest, and we are working on a solution for, is the immediate dismissal or ridicule of a post simply because it is about the paranormal or UFOs...

People are WELCOME to post their stories and should EXPECT the common courtesy of POLITE questions and answers.

Springer...



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 08:28 AM
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Very true... Discussion is one thing, ridicule is another.

However, don't overlook the important role of the skeptic. A skeptic, because of their objective, will often dig deeper, and may ultimately find things that do discredit a case, thereby aiding the UFO community in separating the wheat from the chaff... Also, when the skeptics get puzzled, or cling to silly explanations...it can be a key indicator of a very good case.

That said, until a person gives a valid reason to not believe their account....objectivity is important...as is basic common courtesy, even if the story is discredited...



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 09:24 AM
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I think you have to make a destinction between sightings and cases.

Many individuals have stories to tell about their sighting , but very few of these have any evidence to offer that will prove or discount what they said they've seen. At the end of the day all a Ufologist can do is to keep a record of the account as reported and it will either be consistent with other accounts or it won't be.

I think a case would imply that evidence of some type is involved and then it can be confirmed or discredited usually one way or the other.

Individuals rarely ever have a good case , although good sightings are reported fairly often.

Skeptics ,as Gazrok pointed out ,are necessary and I believe most good Ufologists have to be skeptical in order to separate good cases that represent true Unknowns from cases that can be discounted.

Have you ever seen Ghost Hunters on the Sci-Fi Channel?

They always go into a" Haunted House" looking to debunk the claims being made and to find natural or prosaic explanations for the claims being made. At the end of the day they have some good evidence of things that can't be easily explained.

A good Ufologist must learn to play the role of skeptic and debunker also if we want to have better evidence that can not be explained or debunked.

But ridicule does not have to be a part of this process and shouldn't be IMO.

With that said , you have to also realize that sightings are almost common and you can't really expect your personal sighting to be extraordinary to anyone except yourself unless you have compelling evidence to go with it.

I know from personal experience that my sighting was Earth shattering to me , and not so Earth shattering to others. Only because you can not truly express a personal experience to others verbally. You have to have good evidence to convey your experience to others.

I think the best thing a person can do besides sharing their experience is to help gather evidence to prove that these things are real. By doing that people can help to validate their own experiences that can not be proven for lack of evidence. But to do this one must also be skeptical because throwing your support behind Hoaxes diminishes your credibility quickly and this is to be avoided.

You will also find many people who are true believers , and these can be people who have not had any real experiences but they want to believe and in the process promote Hoaxes and Folklore as being real events and this is disturbing to people who have had true experiences.

If a person has had a true sighting of a UFO its degrading to see other people hoax and fake photos of UFOs or tell stories that are obviously Dreams or Visions or Messages received under trace like states , as these pranks or False events degrade the public perception of the people reporting true events.

Being skeptical helps us make a stronger case for the Reality of UFOs.

To make this short , having an Open Mind doesn't mean we let our Brains fall out of our Heads.

[edit on 25-10-2005 by lost_shaman]



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 09:52 AM
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No I can personally attest to the fact it is not ignored. I posted a recent thread about an extra moon in photos and the responses were great. Not once did I feel insulted or ridiculed over what I had presented and I found many had the same appreciation of seeing something odd and strange and put it down to "the unexplained".

I guess its the way it is presented and the background and the content. In my case I'm not too much of a kook, well Kookie enough to be hanging around on my favourite site, this one but not completely nutso.........I showed the story in pictures with explanation of angles, times and shot, the content was truly unexplainable and most of all it was honest and truthful and i hope that was seeable in thread and replies.

If people just post hey look at this ufo from a video they found on the net, then yeah its going to have a tough time making it. Whats good about ats is the stories that come from eyewitnesses, that can be questioned so a full picture of the event can be formed in the readers eye.

Sometimes along the way a simple explanation is found. Sometimes its obvious the whole thing is a put on so I guess in those cases, it gets treated as one. But sometimes its trully unexplainable and many file it away stamped mystery but not completely forgotton.

I think what ats readers require and look for the most is details, truth, accountability and good content. good thought provoking material.

It doesn't get missed, if its posted on ats its easily referenced for years to come. It may pass by first time around but then someone will remember later when its needed and it will pop up again. Truth has a funny way of doing that and proving itself in the end.

If you going to post something you have to be sure you have enough information to post. I could have got really excited and said, hey I saw something in the sky, it looked like this and this....but how can people believe that, its not a matter of whether they have actually experienced such an event themselves, they need to be able to build a story. If I say I saw this and that, this and that could be a million things...its a matter of putting as much information and facts into the post so that readers can make judgements. Judgements made when facts and information is scarce just doesn't do it. People have to be able to picture it and see the story to believe it.

[edit on 25-10-2005 by Mayet]



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 12:02 PM
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First of all CX, welcome to ATS.

Personally, I have seen some very good cases brought up here on ATS, and hold up to scrutiny. But there are several brought up that don't, and they also tend to reappear over and over. But if an undisputable case did come up, I'm sure it would not be ignored. There is just one problem though. It is virtually (excuse the pun) impossible to prove something on the Internet and there is a lot of junk out there so many will not believe it until they see it. It is possible to present evidence, and determine if a good case is worth looking into it more, but you cannot "prove" it here.

Yes there will always be the drive by poster that says it is crap and gives no reason, but they are easy to ignore and that is how to handle it. But if someone gives a good reason to question something, it should be addressed, and can be done with respect from both parties. Sometimes a thread does go off track, so the author should try to keep things in line. The moderators do a good job, but cannot cover everything. This is where I think help from some of the veterans on the forum could help to set an example for new members.

But it is good form to prove a case unworthy, because it shows you have the ability to tell the difference between the two. It is also good to weed them out so you don't waste time. Although, there is some knowledge to be gained from looking into these cases, it is just to gain experience. Considering the subject though, if 1 case out of 10 does hold up, I would say that is pretty good.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 12:44 PM
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We are all justly wary of frauds, considering the scrutiny attached to our studies.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 01:16 PM
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I>>>>t's almost as though people won't believe unless they have experienced the same thing or unless they can copy and paste info they have found on the web, either supporting or rubbishing the theory. Just because someone experiences something that you have'nt, and have not heard of, does that make it wrong or fake? Not everyone can provide evidence to support thier claims, i think this is where the immediate bombardment from the forum comes into effect.
I feel sorry for the ones that are genuine and who are purely expressing a desire to share thier excitement, even more of a shame is when you can see someone here getting slated for something they've said, you can almost hear them walking out, slamming the door and giving the finger to everyone! Lets hope this does'nt stop them wating to share other experiences. >>>

Yes, so true..I would never be so rude as to throw BS label if I was not there, and had not experienced a person's own real happenings.
What does this say to a newbie, as some come here scared to death, and thinking this is a safe place to find understanding or at the least a graceful answer to anyone's dilemma..



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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I personaly am intrigued by UFO's and aliens. I really like aliens and UFOs from a fictional stand point. I can seperate fascination from practical reality which allows me to be objective. I consider my views objective because I don't need aliens or ufos to exist. I think constructive theories using relative science/technologies and a dose of creative fiction would service the community more. Provided it is labeled as such. Unfortunately people cross the line all the time.

There has been a drought when it comes to UFO crashes. When will we get the next big event happen if ever. Roswell can only be milked for so long and the steady increase of hoaxes isn't helping. This and the larger community has a seemingly inability to be clearly objective on a case by case basis. That to me really undermines a communities validity. The acceptance of everything/anything presented as being plausible without validation for the sake of continuance is weak and self serving.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by CX

I personaly do not believe that a genuine case here would be believed unless it landed on your front lawn and beamed you up personaly. I would like to see a case one day where people don't pick holes in it just because they can't explain it any other way. I have to say i am a little suprised by the reaction to peoples alleged sightings here on ATS.


I agree. I don't have a problem with cases not being believed but the pretense and hostility hurled toward proposed experiences is pretty bad. For my money UFOolgy is one of the most self-destructive and counterproductive fields/communities there is.

[edit on 25-10-2005 by Loungerist]



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 02:35 PM
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shaman;

I have watched Ghosthunters and 'man are they obnoxious to each other'
Wonder how much they charge to set up all their equipment and debunk every case, but the one recently where the ghost stood before them in a Civil war uniform..?
It scared the bejeesus outta them.Btw, the house was owned by a psychic..Did you see that one last week?


BTW--The military ghost could NEVER be debunked, it was there...

[edit on 25-10-2005 by siriuslyone]



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 02:37 PM
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I consider my views objective because I don't need aliens or ufos to exist.


This is an excellent comment...
imho....

Though I find the subject fascinating....I'd really rather prefer that cases like Roswell and others really are just misindentifications. If they aren't, and aliens are really visiting us, then we are facing unknown beings with unknown objectives. While these objectives may not be seemingly deliberately hostile....if even some cases are indeed just what they seem, then it would indicate the aliens do not have our best interests at heart....

With all of that said, unfortunately there are many cases in which the evidence does seem to defy terrestrial explanations... While I don't NEED aliens to exist....for me, the evidence seems to be pointing to that likely being the case.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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As much as we believe we are "smart", just as we can be "invisible" to a monkey if we so please, so too is it likely that intelligent beings far and beyond us can do the same. Why is it so hard for us to humble ourselves and admit that these "things" are very likely evading any kind of detection measures we employ?

The absence of proof, in this case, does not negate their existence and, is logical for the above reason. Further, why do WE think we are alone? Because, circularly, we have little to no proof of anyting else out there. When mathematical probabilities are factored in, as well as an understanding of evolution, it is likely they do exist. They are intelligent far and beyond us. They are watching us but we cannot, normally, detect them.

One case, be it true or not, is that British Airways training film of the Concord's first flight in the late 70's? There was an unmistakable "anomaly" alongside the craft. If this is fake then please let me know. But if there is little evidence to suggest it is fake, it is very incriminating, as it looks alien - a probe. One point of mention is that, British Airways would NOT want anything like this to happen, since it would have, in their view anyway, negative consequences on business. They, apparently, made a public statement saying it was dirt on the camera lens. The fact they used a lame excuse shows that they want to deny something actually there and are admitting something was there at the same time.

At our primitive stage, we can transport light beams, are experimenting with Anti-gravity craft and brain-wave technology, aritificial intelligence, telomere technology for living longer, etc. Another 100,000 years of this... Aliens come from places perhaps billions of light years ahead of our point in time...



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 03:02 PM
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>>At our primitive stage, we can transport light beams, are experimenting with Anti-gravity craft and brain-wave technology, aritificial intelligence, telomere technology for living longer, etc. Another 100,000 years of this... Aliens come from places perhaps billions of light years ahead of our point in time


JAK

posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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    Originally posted by CX
    ...i do wonder if a genuine case would be wasted or rubbished by people here should it arise

Despite the interest in UFO's being whe first led me to ATS I have managed to pick up the label 'dis-info agent' by a small few here. A label that made me smile broadly.

When it was later mentioned that the reason for any percieved aggression from myself toward a member who I considered after reading his claims to be blatently trying to decieve people was merely a reluctance to believe his words I replied with the following:


    I wonder if that want ran further? Perhaps to a depth where to see someone suggesting the possibility of such a strong desire coming to fruition in what might be percieved a 'crank' fashion and thus actually damaging the already questionable credibility of the subject would generate an anger toward the threads author, hence the subsequent discourse.

    I wonder whether those who were accused of the fiercest or most consistent attacks did not, in all sincerity, hold more desire to see such an event take place than others who may have been more accepting?

I see the role of sceptic as very important in this field. An open yet questioning mind is essential, the blind acceptance of every and any claim cannot aid a subject already ripe for ridicule in the eyes of most people.

Saying that I have noticed what (in my eyes) have been overly aggressive personal attacks upon the authors of posts who claimed, or even suggested, certain things. This I don't think is helpful. Surely anyone who had an experience the type of which we all hope to hear of one day would be hesitant enough to convey their experience to anyone. Should they then summon up the courage to come and speak out about this personal matter only to be immediately ridiculed and insulted, why would they stay?

We should hope that anyone with an experience in the field of aliens or UFO's would feel comfortable enough to come to this community and share their experiences with us. Not afraid of outrageous vilification as soon as they post, but rather aware that any claims made will be rightly questioned. This, I would imagine, would not only be accepted by the poster but positively encouraged. For to post such a claim with conviction one would be desperate for the truth to be known and if it is to be believed as genuine then to share that truth with others through respectful questioning and detailed discussion must be unavoidable to lend credibility and therefore desired by all genuinely interested.

So while a healthy scepticism is a positive thing in my opinion there is no requirement for it to travel hand in hand with outright hostility, in fact the two are probably bad bedfellows indeed.

Jak


[edit on 25/10/05 by JAK]



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 04:14 PM
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Springer, Gazrok, JAK Good to see moderators uphold an open ear and objective eye. A rationale ballance if that were possible would be unique. cheers



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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I would also like to add that IMO the quality of the post has a lot to do with the response they might receive. If a post is poorly written and not well articulated, you can expect readers to hold less credibility for the author and hence the reply may be also lower in quality. If you want quality responses, you should write a quality post. This thread is a good example of that.



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