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NEWS: Spanish Judge Issues International Arrest Warrants For 3 US Soldiers

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posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
If you haven't been there you don't know. There might be 10 men on this board who are in a position to judge.

All of them Ex-Marines.

Like you, huh Grady?

Nice, Objective view on WAR you guys have, right?




posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 10:33 AM
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There are no ex-Marines, Souljah. What are your credentials?



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
There are no ex-Marines, Souljah. What are your credentials?

I am sorry for my Mistake.

Once a Marine,

Always a Marine,

Right?



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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What are yours Grady? Who are you going to ask to judge cases of armed robbery? Former criminals? NO. Maybe the next time a convenient store gets robbed we can get together 10 of the best criminals in the nation together to judge the guy. Right. That would fly. Who here would accept the judgment of the criminals? Nobody. Why are you so against our guys standing trial in a court of law where they have to provide real evidence to what happened? Do you have a problem with justice? Is there something wrong with having a fair trial where you are allowed to defense yourself? I mean isn't that what this country stands for? Without a fair trial there is no way to determine innocence or guilt. Or is that what you want?



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 10:50 AM
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Yhe point of the matter is that it was WAR! Ever been in a situation such as that? It ain't neat, it comes nowhere near orderly and mistakes are made.
Did anyone bother to read that they were taking fire, and that there was a spotter directing fire on the tanks? What, do you think those guys just figured they'd off a couple news folks for fun? Do you think they were indigeneous to that town and sothey knew where every building and every stupid reporter was?

Get real. And, Spain, get real. No soldier is going to stand trial in another country for war mistakes. If there was wrong-doing, we'd have jailed them ourselves. We're funny like that.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 11:13 AM
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Ah give me a break


You can hide behind your machismo all you damn well like. SOAD got it right, 'little men with big guns'. Blow Spain off the map? Please

Funny how you've got every excuse under the Sun with respect to war when its your own guys screwing up. Where as if any one else cocks up there's hell to pay.

If its not the American military shooting up their allies, they are shooting up the World's journalists. What's next? Shooting up nuns 'coz they could be packin' anythin under those habits? I suppose they shouldn't be in a war zone either, they are basically asking for it.

How about this? A journalist has about as much right to be in Iraq as invading U.S soldiers. Except journalists are their for reasons with integrity i.e. letting the World keep an eye on an invasion and make sure old Uncle Sam doesn't kill indiscriminately. Which they would if they thought no one would find out...fog of war and all that bull#.

[edit on 20/10/05 by subz]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 11:20 AM
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Uh, no Subz, if someone else screws up, it is to be expected as well.

As I said, combat is not clean; it is messy and confusing and downright scary as hell. You are going to FREAKIN' die and there is nothing you can do about it but trust your buddies. Do you SERIOUSLY think those guys were plinking for reporters? GET REAL!

I'm out of this. This is as Grady says, a typical Bash-America fest. I don't mind swipes at the governmental policy, but to accuse our scared kids of being a bunch of murderers, please. It is not our national culture.

Grady, no more blanket statements, no more calling the entire country of Spain cowardly. Be dignified.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 11:29 AM
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Obviously the tankers made a mistake, but I very much doubt it was intentional. It's not like there was a big sign on the building that said "Nope, can't shoot this one!". It's awful that the journalists died, but as others have already stated, if you wanna go into a warzone, you gotta know that friendly fire accidents happen in ever war/peacekeeping mission/incursion. They knew this going in, and if they didn't they should have.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Uh, no Subz, if someone else screws up, it is to be expected as well.

What like Saddam killing the 100+ Kurds who revolted and tried to kill him? He's on trial for that one. Wheres the leeway there? Not that I expect Saddam doesnt deserve to hang for those crimes, im bringing it up because he isnt allowed to hide behind "war is hell".


Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
As I said, combat is not clean; it is messy and confusing and downright scary as hell. You are going to FREAKIN' die and there is nothing you can do about it but trust your buddies. Do you SERIOUSLY think those guys were plinking for reporters? GET REAL!

No I dont actually think they deliberately went to kill reporters. That doesnt bring them back to life though does it? If you accidently killed some one, through negligence, you would be charged with manslaughter. Hows this any different?


Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I don't mind swipes at the governmental policy, but to accuse our scared kids of being a bunch of murderers, please. It is not our national culture.

Never said they were murderers. I said its atleast criminal negligence. There are rules even in war, there is no longer a laisser faire nature to war, there is no Cole Porter-esque "Anything Goes" in todays modern warfare. Saying that the Worlds media shouldnt of been there if they didnt want to be shot and killed is a cop out. The United States military INVITED the Worlds media to witness "shock and awe" in the first place, they embedded journalists within the units themselves. How can they reconsile that with saying "hey, you shouldnt of been there if you didnt want to die". It just doesnt make sense.

[edit on 20/10/05 by subz]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 11:37 AM
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Subz, what part of "I'm out of here" do you not understand?
This is not the day for me to deal with such crap. I'm not making it a point to try and convince people of reality today or for about the next two weeks or so.

Have a beautiful America-bash. Bad soldiers! They were aiming to kill reporters! I'll bet they were specifically aiming for that Spanish guy! Sure, that was a helluva distance to tell who they were or even know what building that was, but he was an American and there's no doubt he could tell that the lens was that of a camera and not a spotters scope and he could definitely tell thatthe guy was a Spaniard and not an Iraqi! Why take them to court, just HANG THEM!!!!!

Whew. I see why it's the fad. No brain necessary, just rant and rail!

TC out. Way out. No need to respond.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Subz, what part of "I'm out of here" do you not understand?
This is not the day for me to deal with such crap. I'm not making it a point to try and convince people of reality today or for about the next two weeks or so.

You might be "out of here" but your posts not. I can reply cant I?


Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Have a beautiful America-bash. Bad soldiers!

Just because you call this an "America-bash" doesnt make it one.


Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
They were aiming to kill reporters! I'll bet they were specifically aiming for that Spanish guy! Sure, that was a helluva distance to tell who they were or even know what building that was, but he was an American and there's no doubt he could tell that the lens was that of a camera and not a spotters scope and he could definitely tell thatthe guy was a Spaniard and not an Iraqi! Why take them to court, just HANG THEM!!!!!

Whew. I see why it's the fad. No brain necessary, just rant and rail!

TC out. Way out. No need to respond.

Did you even read what I wrote? Jump to conlusions, rant about it, then run. Thats a great fad too.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by subz
The United States military INVITED the Worlds media to witness "shock and awe" in the first place, they embedded journalists within the units themselves. How can they reconsile that with saying "hey, you shouldnt of been there if you didnt want to die". It just doesnt make sense.


Hmm, well you'd have to assume that the reporters weren't embedded in the US military as they were in Saddam controlled Baghdad at the time
The US didn't invite journalists to stay at the Palestine Hotel, they just knew it was a place where journalists had congregated and tried to avoid hitting it.

I don't think any reporters embedded with US forces have been killed by American soldiers



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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The point is that if this is indeed a mistake then let a proper hearing determine that. Allow evidence to be presented. Why are we as Americans so quick to want to side step due process where evidence is allowed to be presented and people are allowed to defend themselves? In a speech George Bush talked about how people over there were denied basic human rights such as the presumption of innocence until being proven guilty. We seem to want to eliminate that process and make it so we are always innocent and they are always guilty without as much as a fair hearing.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by rogue1
Hmm, well you'd have to assume that the reporters weren't embedded in the US military as they were in Saddam controlled Baghdad at the time

Huh? Did I say the journalists in the Palestine Holtel were embedded in the U.S Military?


Originally posted by rogue1
The US didn't invite journalists to stay at the Palestine Hotel, they just knew it was a place where journalists had congregated and tried to avoid hitting it.

Then why set the journalist camp up in Doha? What were they there for? To just watch prepared footage spoon-fed to them by the military? Or where they there to get briefings on what to expect to see in Iraq? i.e. when the shock and awe campaign began


Originally posted by rogue1
I don't think any reporters embedded with US forces have been killed by American soldiers



US journalist killed in Iraq
Reporter Michael Kelly, an "embedded" American journalist with the United States Army's 3rd Infantry Division, has been killed along with a soldier after an accident in Iraq, US officials say.

Kelly, who was on an assignment for current events magazine the Atlantic Monthly, died on Thursday in an accident that involved a Humvee military vehicle.

He is the first US journalist and the first "embedded" reporter to be killed in the current conflict.

US officials said the circumstances and cause of the accident are under investigation.

The identity of the dead US soldier has not yet been released.

BBC News

Look, im not saying this camera man was killed because he was a cameraman. Im more than willing to give these soldiers the benefit of the doubt here. What I object to is the disregard of all but the American justice system by some members on this board and the U.S government.

Just last week we had the United States extraditing a former Russian cabinet minister to stand trial in the Untied States for crimes he committed IN RUSSIA. All I think the World is asking for he is a little balance here. The United States wont allow these soldiers to explain what happened to the Spanish Supreme Court, that is unacceptable. Either the United States believes in trying foreigners or it doesn't. It cant expect every single country on Earth to hand over suspects to stand trial in America and at the same time deny requests by other countries to do the same to Americans.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by subz
Look, im not saying this camera man was killed because he was a cameraman. Im more than willing to give these soldiers the benefit of the doubt here. What I object to is the disregard of all but the American justice system by some members on this board and the U.S government.


What you don't seem to understand subz is that in an active battlezone, civilian laws sometimes don't apply and this was one such case. The Americans were being shelled guided by an Iraqi artillery observer. Now the best place for an observer is the highest point possible ( ie the Palestine Hotel ). Now when the tank crews saw a lens of what could have been a spotting scope they fired. knowing that if it was the observer they would save american lives.

Just to clear up your stance on this. Would all Allied bomber crews who blitzed Germany and Japan be criminals ? Should they have to front up to German and Japanese courts and explain their actions. After all, they did kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by rogue1
What you don't seem to understand subz is that in an active battlezone, civilian laws sometimes don't apply and this was one such case.

I do understand that but lets not forget there was never a declaration of war by the United States against Iraq. Also there are plenty of occasions where soldiers get charged with murder in wartime. Protecting foreigners and journalists and even innocent civilians should be a priority of any civilized nation when in combat. That's why Baghdad wasn't carpet bombed, innocent civilians would of died. It would of undoubtedly saved American soldiers lives but it wasn't done, was it?


Originally posted by rogue1
The Americans were being shelled guided by an Iraqi artillery observer. Now the best place for an observer is the highest point possible ( i.e. the Palestine Hotel ). Now when the tank crews saw a lens of what could have been a spotting scope they fired. knowing that if it was the observer they would save American lives.


Are you trying to tell me this building was mistaken or unknown to the tank crews? What if they saw a glint coming from an American field hospital? Would they of open fired on that too? Come on, theres mistakes and theres ignorance and recklessness.


Originally posted by rogue1
Just to clear up your stance on this. Would all Allied bomber crews who blitzed Germany and Japan be criminals ? Should they have to front up to German and Japanese courts and explain their actions. After all, they did kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

No that's not analogous to this situation. First of all, the Allied bombers were in a declared War. The War was started by the German and Japanese. In this scenario it isn't Iraqis or an Iraqi court that has issued a warrant for the U.S Soldiers, its a Spanish (American Ally) court that has. But to answer your hypothetical, no they shouldn't of gone on trial for what they were explicitly ordered to do. The British commanders who ordered the fire-bombing of Dresden, on the other hand, should of been held on War Crimes charges.

[edit on 20/10/05 by subz]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 11:55 PM
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You really live in a glass house dont you? So lets put you in that tank crews shoes. Your being shelled left and right and your commander spots a possible spotter. He orders you to fire upon the building. What do you? Do you sit there and question his command? Or do you obey the order and fire? Its real life it aint checkers. Do you think they had some map that was marked "journalist" on the buildings they couldnt fire upon. Get real subz. Yes its sad this guy died. But maybe just maybe he should not have been on the balcony holding an object that could be misconstrued as a weapon. When right down the street a group of tanks are being shelled. Not too mention that these reporters are well aware they are putting their life on the line and when push comes to shove if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time it could be their life. And your mentioning saddam and his acts is asinine. You cannot compare the gassing of hundreds of kurds to this. That was deliberate. Not like he was just testing the gas and oh oopsy it happened to be in a kurdish neighborhood.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by Whompa1
You really live in a glass house dont you? So lets put you in that tank crews shoes.

Im not a soldier, but im damn sure if I had the training I wouldn't fire indiscriminately!


Originally posted by Whompa1
Your being shelled left and right and your commander spots a possible spotter. He orders you to fire upon the building. What do you? Do you sit there and question his command?

If I was aware that the huge building in front of me was that journalist building everyone has been talking about I wouldn't of fired on it.

Ok lets reverse your awkward attempt at a hypothetical. Lets say you're taking mortar fire from some one inside a kindergarten packed full of kids. Your tank commander orders you to fire on the kindergarten. Do YOU question it or fire? Your hypothetical trying to show how soldiers don't have the choice to carry out orders when their commanders give them blatantly wrong orders is false.


Originally posted by Whompa1
Or do you obey the order and fire? Its real life it aint checkers. Do you think they had some map that was marked "journalist" on the buildings they couldn't fire upon. Get real subz.

Then why the US military consternation quoted in Souljah's post when they saw one of their own guys firing on the Palestine Hotel? Obviously the US military had made firing upon the Hotel a no-no. Or do you conveniently forget this? If the building was unknown to the US military as housing the Worlds journalists I would see your point, but that's not how it went down.


Originally posted by Whompa1
Yes its sad this guy died. But maybe just maybe he should not have been on the balcony holding an object that could be misconstrued as a weapon. When right down the street a group of tanks are being shelled.

So you're saying we are not entitled to get video footage of things such as this? My whole point is that if the US military knew this huge building was housing international journalists they should have thought "ah that kinda looks like a range finder, then again that is the Palestine Hotel where all the journalists are. We've been told not to fire on it and its highly likely to be a camera man." Do you have evidence that proves these tankers DIDNT know this was the Palestine Hotel? There's been evidence shown their superiors did, why didn't they? Hence the court appearance! So we can ascertain these facts. Im not saying they're guilty already if you'd be so kind to actually read what I wrote.


Originally posted by Whompa1
And your mentioning saddam and his acts is asinine. You cannot compare the gassing of hundreds of kurds to this. That was deliberate. Not like he was just testing the gas and oh oopsy it happened to be in a kurdish neighborhood.

You might want to get your facts right before insulting me. The case I mentioned was not the gassing of Kurds at Halabjah. Its was the case he is currently standing trial for. The charges Saddam is currently on trial for are for the executing of the 100 or so Kurdish men who tried to assassinate Saddam Hussein, not the Halabjah massacre. That ok with you?

[edit on 21/10/05 by subz]



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 01:17 AM
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Like many people have said its WAR. They don't have the luxary (those on the field in the thick of battle) of trying to figure out who is who. If they think they are being threatened they are going to fire upon that threat. That point was stated in the very begining of the war several times by several different news agencys as well as embedded reporters. Yes the US commanders (it would appear) knew what the hotel was and who it was holding. Doesnt mean the tankers were aware of that. Its kill or be killed. I'm not saying that we are not entitled to get footage of these events. What I am saying is that if a reporter wants to put themselves in a situation were they could be in danger then they need to be prepared and understand the risks they are taking and not do errent stuff like stand on a balcony with a camera on their shoulder that could be taken as something else.

Subz have you ever been in a physical fight? Your adreline goes skyhigh and your not exactly thinking about anything but getting the other person. I would imagine thats a lot like what it was for those tankers. Sure you say your not saying they are guilty but everyone of your posts have been slamming them for what happened.

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Whompa1]




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