Home defense recomendations

12 Ga. Remington pump shotgun (no mag plug since I stopped hunting) loaded with #8 shot.

9mm Browning Hi Power with 25 round extended mag. Loaded with Glaser Blue frangable ammo.

This combination is guarenteed to give any intruder a short but exciting life.

I admire your attention to over-penetration issues.

12 gauge #8 shot and 9mm Glasers - very impressive, effective knowledge is indicated

Frangible ammunition is not recommended for rifles is it not?

I was wondering, if I loaded a AK with Frangible ammunition, will it be a viable option for home defense or is the risk of over-penetration still to high?

I am also quite concerned with over penetration, ricochets and collateral damage.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
Frangible ammunition is not recommended for rifles is it not?

I was wondering, if I loaded a AK with Frangible ammunition, will it be a viable option for home defense or is the risk of over-penetration still to high?

I am also quite concerned with over penetration, ricochets and collateral damage.

They really don't make much in the way of frangible ammuntion for rifles, it's very rare for handguns (PMC Green is the only one that springs to mind), and while the Glaser Blue and Glaser Silver offer violent fragmentation, they are not truly frangible rounds since these turn to powder on impact as opposed to just breaking up into tiny pieces.

Controlling penetration with an AK is always going to be a problem, but your best bet if you absolutely had to use an AK would probably be the Corbon soft point load in 7.62x39 but it's very pricey, maybe a buck a pop, and will still penetrate a whole heck of a lot.

Unless you live out in the country, a shotgun loaded with smaller sized shot (#6, #7, or #8) is the way to go.

I found some Frangible ammunition online for the AK.

I am basically a big fan of the AK and would like it as a plinker, target shooter etc but I am also concerned about home defense, I was wondering if I could combine those since a shotgun isn't ideal for target shooting/plinking.

I could combine both with a handgun quite well or perhaps a 9mm/.40cal carbine, but getting a handgun is harder in the state i'm moving to.

ideally i'd get the following, providing, I have enough cash.

-AK-47 clone for Plinking, Target Shooting (I know it isn't very accurate, but i'm not doing competiton shooting) and Breakdown of Law and Order.
-Mossberg 500 for Home Defense, Hunting and perhaps some clay shooting.
-Sig Sauer .40cal Pistol for Home Defense (perhaps for my wife) and for target shooting.

But this list will cost about 1000+ dollars, sure it's cheaper than getting 1 AR-15 in most cases and I get more, but I want a solution that doesn't break my bank

I have an AK knockoff, and the thing is accurate as all get out. I've downed antelope at 300 yd. with the thing. You could drive nails with it under 100.

As far as shotgunning goes, I'd rather shoot some clays that just about anything besides the actual upland game they represent. I hunt deer for the meat. I hunt birds for the thrill of it (although I eat them, too. I don't kill anything unless I plan to consume it in a mystic communion of absorbing its life-essence.)

I have had someone pull a shotgun on me on duty. I will tell you that the two things every cop (or robber) fears is a knife and a 12 guage. If either of them nicks your intestine, there is little a surgeon can do for you in actual practice. Sepsis kills slower that lead, but it is much more certain.

The dude that drew down on me didn't announce himself, he just racked the shell into the breach. If you've ever heard that sound from the barrel-end of an argument, it stays with you; it even works its way into your dreams.

So yeah; 12 guage is fine for home defense.

Unless your house is more than 50 yards long or so.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I found some Frangible ammunition online for the AK.

Do you still have the link or remember the name of the manufacturer ?

www.reedsammo.com should have it, I found it on Gunbroker, I wont give the Auction's adress since I am not sure if that would violate the ToS...

The Frangible rounds are available Here:


[edit on 24/10/2005 by GrOuNd_ZeRo]

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

I have an AK knockoff, and the thing is accurate as all get out. I've downed antelope at 300 yd. with the thing. You could drive nails with it under 100.

I never even shot mine at 300 yards that impressive IMHO. You are so correct about a 100 yards and in the AK is deadly accurate. I have shot alot farther then 100 yards with the AK-74 though I find it to be accurate.

If you're into reloading look into using less powder in the ammo you use for home defense. I remember that there was a ballistics table for loading .30 cal ammunition so that it wouldn't over penetrate. Another thing that you could do would be to reload with lead slugs instead of jacketed ammunition. Put this into a clip that you have marked specifically for home defence.

The Glaser rounds that I use were required when I worked as a security guard. I worked nights on the weekend at a school that had a problem with theft and vandalism. My first 4 rounds were blanks and then the Glasers. I figured that the worst I might run into would be a kid with a knife and if it was something else I could burn thru the blanks quickly enough. I got the #8 shot idea out of an issue of Field and Stream that had an article showing how many walls a rifle and shotgun round would go thru, besides at close range #8 shot will do a worse number on someone than 00 buckshot will.

Sorry about the slow reply.

Winchester, re. the P5C, yes I do mean the L102A1, and no, it's not an SAS weapon. It has been on issue as a PPW to members of the R.Irish Reg. for many years now. R.Irish are the only unit in the british army to use the P5C.

People seem to believe that it is SF because of the low numbers that were procured, and the fact that people selling them try to make them out as such to increase theie value.

Sorry to burst any bubbles.

You did say HOME DEFENSE right??? What is it with all of these people advocating the likes of an AK or some other obscene assault rifle? I would love to see someone effectively maneuver a clunky AK around the house when an intruder breaks in! It ain't gonna happen. Chances are your going to take a few rounds while your trying to shoulder that thing. Secondly, good luck getting off an accurate shot in a timely manner.

Hand guns??? Maybe. Most are impracticle for anything other than police use or concealed carry. They are inaccurate and in most cases unreliable. You also have the issue of over-penetration - yes it does exist and could end up killing a family member or a neighbor instead of an intruder or assailant. In most cases a 9mm will pass straight through someone without them even realizing that they had been hit. Other similar calibers simply lack any stopping power. Oh, so let's go to the hand-held artillery, like the 44 or the 45 or the .357... WHY??? You still have issues of inaccuracy and now you are going to add over-penetration and lack of recoverability to the issue.

What does that leave??? Well, I have a number of firearms... 17 to be exact! But only 1 of them is for Home Defense. The rest are for sport, simply put. For home defense I use a Mossberg 590 12 ga. pump shotgun. It has a 20" barrel and 9 shot mag capacity. It will fire either standard 2 3/4" or 3" shells. To deal with recoil, I have removed the factory stock and replaced it with a Knoxx SpecOps recoil reducing adjustable stock. Believe it or not, it feels like I'm shooting a .22. For saefty I have mounted an M3 Surefire tactical light onto the mag to identify targets at night. Also, blinding light can be a weapon in and of itself. In the event that I need to be in possession of this weapon for a prolonged period of time (Think NO after Katrina) I have outfitted it with a CQB sling which gives you several different carry options. For loads I like to alternate between 00 Buck and slugs.

Here's a great site with some fantastic info... Check it out!

www.shotgunworld.com...

Just a few quick things for you... Mostly to dispel a few myths. Shotguns DO NOT spray a wall of ammo at your attacker. In fact, most shot patterns are within a 1 foot diameter at 30 to 50 yards! Inside your home you will likely be less than 15 feet or 5 yards from your attacker; You DO NEED TO BE ACCURATE - DEADLY ACCURATE! There will be over-penetration on ANY weapon you purchase, but probably much less with a shotgun. Here is a good video that demonstrates this fact...

www.theboxotruth.com...

The sound of a shotgun racking a shell into the chamber DOES NOT instantly send an assailant running in fear - in fact, statistics show that it will generally send an armed assailant into a shooting frenzy shooting anything in the general direction of the noise!

Finally, having a home defense weapon will NOT defend your home - YOU, and only you can defend your home. The weapon is merely the method by which you will begin or end your defense. Too many people believe that simply showing a weapon will be enough, it is not. You must be TRAINED and PREPARED to use this weapon in the act of defense. That split second that you hesitate could be your last second on earth! Be smart about it! If the thought of actually using this weapon against an intruder disturbes you, DO NOT BUY ONE! Chances are having that weapon but not using it will get you killed faster than if you had no weapon.

For additional info on my home defense stick, visit the following...

www.mossberg.com...

Mine is the 590 model#50660

www.knoxx.com...

This is the stock that I was talking about. They have others available. This stock allows my 5'2" wife and my 5', 110lb. nephew to fire my 12 ga. with absolutely no problems.

Good luck and God speed! Hopefully you will never ever need to use sucha weapon.



[edit on 25-10-2005 by kozmo]

I wouldn't choose a AK OR shotgun as my first line of home defense.

The same things you cited against the AK apply just as much to the shotgun.

-needing to be accurate

-heavy

- one you failed to note: it is instinctive for a close-range attacker to swat a rifle or shotgun barrel aside. (same with handgun if you hold it "out" toward them, as most persons do when firing a semiauto pistol.)


Another thing you see in the movies is people pointing a pistol UP and holding next to their face when confronted with a corner. That lets an attacker punch your elbow and swat the gun away. You ought to stiffarm it (so the semiauto can cycle the next round) but point it down. This way, no one swats it aside, and if you trip, you just shoot your foot, and not your head.

Moviemakers know this from having followed real police around; but they like the gun next to the head pose because it heightens drama. (!)

Originally posted by PaddyInf
Sorry about the slow reply.

Winchester, re. the P5C, yes I do mean the L102A1, and no, it's not an SAS weapon. It has been on issue as a PPW to members of the R.Irish Reg. for many years now. R.Irish are the only unit in the british army to use the P5C.

People seem to believe that it is SF because of the low numbers that were procured, and the fact that people selling them try to make them out as such to increase theie value.

Sorry to burst any bubbles.

Thanks Paddy - another Internet myth is busted. Nice weapon, very nice, but you really need to load it with some JHPs, I wouldn't be filled with confidence by the NATO FMJ you're probably issued.

PS - Don't worry, I'll keep it quiet that you're really SF, I think everyone bought it

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
www.reedsammo.com should have it, I found it on Gunbroker, I wont give the Auction's adress since I am not sure if that would violate the ToS...

The Frangible rounds are available Here:


[edit on 24/10/2005 by GrOuNd_ZeRo]

Awesome find, thanks. I may just buy some, that gives some interesting options for home defence with an AK or an SKS - some wetpack testing is required.

Originally posted by kozmo
You did say HOME DEFENSE right??? What is it with all of these people advocating the likes of an AK or some other obscene assault rifle? I would love to see someone effectively maneuver a clunky AK around the house when an intruder breaks in!

It ain't gonna happen.

[edit on 25-10-2005 by kozmo]

The person that started this thread asked about weapons for home defense and weapons in a break down of law and order scenario. The people that mentioned AKs were talking about it for the anarchy scenario and for that its a very good choice.

[edit on 25-10-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Well I just love this type thread! Fun to read.

I'll tell you what I do. Glock 34 or 35, 15 round mag loaded with JHP. I got expansion out to .70 with Remington HP's out of a .40.

Shotgun get one of the defenders by????? Winchester? Can't remember who makes it. 18.5 barrel and a magazine just as long. Get 4's or 2's high brass .

Rifle, get a Mini-14 .

Roper

Originally posted by kozmo

Hand guns??? Maybe. Most are impracticle for anything other than police use or concealed carry. They are inaccurate and in most cases unreliable. You also have the issue of over-penetration - yes it does exist and could end up killing a family member or a neighbor instead of an intruder or assailant. In most cases a 9mm will pass straight through someone without them even realizing that they had been hit. Other similar calibers simply lack any stopping power. Oh, so let's go to the hand-held artillery, like the 44 or the 45 or the .357... WHY??? You still have issues of inaccuracy and now you are going to add over-penetration and lack of recoverability to the issue.

Over penetration is really not that big of an issue. If anything using glasers with such little penetration will not incapacitate your target.

Here is a great PDf on this issue from the FBI.

www.firearmstactical.com...

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness.
It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead
to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law
enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent
bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great
majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively
few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the
subject entirely.

If you hit with a 9mm in the torso or head you will notice the shot, saying that most assailants wouldn't feel it is complete nonsense. Being hit with any bullet 9mm or higher is equivelant to being hit with a baseball, unless your assailant is high on PCP or coc aine they will definitely notice.


Have you ever shot any of the handguns you mentioned?

.45 acp does not belong in the same category as .44 magnum or .357 magnum. Magnum bullets are twice as long and much more powerful.

.45 acp is larger than 9mm but not even close to the size of .357 magnum.



Accuracy is more due to the shooter than to the caliber. Most .45 autos are very accurate at 25 yards or closer. I have a springfield GI .45 with old style sights and the black part of my targets are torn to peices at the range. At 5- 10 yards it is extremely accurate. In fact all of the rangemasters at my range have Kimber .45's(Kimber makes custom 1911-A1's) and they all have complimented me on my choice.


If you want to use a handgun for home defense learn to shoot first, preferably with a .40 or .45, as the stopping power is more effective even with FMJ's.

Originally posted by Captain_Sensible
Please for the love of mint choc chip ice cream tell me you aren't serious about that redmage?

In regards to the "tater" gun, I could be mistaken in that it's only a county law vs. being a state law but I believe it's statewide!

We are only allowed class c fireworks too, which I know is statewide, which leaves us with only sparklers, bang snaps, and "snakes". lmao

Good thing the state border with the good "works" is close by, and they tend not to enforce it to heavily unless your neighbors have a problem with fireworks or you're being an idiot

I agree, rifles are a bit on the loopy side for home defense, but can be useful if WWIII breaks out in your area.

Hand guns really are a perfectly viable choice, particularly in the big bore range. As for problems with recovery after shot for these weapons, the same can be said for a shotgun. Recovery is a training and weapon selection issue. Train with the weapon and shot recovery will not be a major issue.

Underpowered? Questionable. A 9mm, .40 or .45 with good ammo selection and accurate shot placement will dump you on your arse. Trust me on this. Handguns are also more than accurate enough at the sort of ranges we are talking about (