The Halloween Controversy

Originally posted by kedfr
So the fact that it is fun is not a good reason?

I don't see in the definition or practical application of fun, where Halloween is a requirement.

Originally posted by kedfr
Surely you can enjoy something on its own merits?

Hm, and what merits are those again? Keeping in mind that it is very possible (and I'd argue frequently acheived drawing from experience) to have fun while being a Christian.

Speaking of, here's just one suggestion (I'm sure the possibilities are endless). I'd asked my daughter if she'd like to design what a good day would be including God. She had some great ideas, and we're going to run with that tonight. It has nothing to do with costumes, hordes of candy, nor any other belief systems, and she's more excited about that than when she heard Halloween was coming up a month ago.

Seems she can have fun without Halloween/Samhain and I intend to join her on that endevour.


[edit on 31-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Hm, and what merits are those again? Keeping in mind that it is very possible (and I'd argue frequently acheived drawing from experience) to have fun while being a Christian.

Speaking of, here's just one suggestion (I'm sure the possibilities are endless). I'd asked my daughter if she'd like to design what a good day would be including God. She had some great ideas, and we're going to run with that tonight. It has nothing to do with costumes, hordes of candy, nor any other belief systems, and she's more excited about that than when she heard Halloween was coming up a month ago.

Seems she can have fun without Halloween/Samhain and I intend to join her on that endevour.

Halloween draws on traditional modes of carnival that have been culturally hard-coded into us for centuries now. It is a secular festival and is not inherantly anti-religious. True it doesn't incorporate Christian worship but then again, that is the whole point of secular celebrations. I was merely saying that ultimately it is a pretty harmless day/night of the year.

Originally posted by kedfr
Halloween draws on traditional modes of carnival that have been culturally hard-coded into us for centuries now.

That's a scarey statement. Mass programming. Sounds like a conspiracy to me . I say to that Christian to break the mold and take off the blindfold.

Originally posted by kedfr
It is a secular festival

It may be to you. However, maybe someday you'll meet the people who do participate in original and bastardized practices of Halloween/Samhain.

Originally posted by kedfr
and is not inherantly anti-religious.

On the contrary, it is indeed religious, but not Christian.

Originally posted by kedfr
True it doesn't incorporate Christian worship but then again, that is the whole point of secular celebrations.

Does a Christian need "time away" from God? If so, I'd encourage them to re-evaluate that position.

Originally posted by kedfr
I was merely saying that ultimately it is a pretty harmless day/night of the year.

It can be, sure. I'm not disputing that and am not here to dictate what everyone should do, only help those who believe in God see where there is a conflict between belief and practice by participating in this holyday.


[edit on 31-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

That's a scarey statement. Mass programming. Sounds like a conspiracy to me

. I say to that Christian to break the mold and take off the blindfold.

This is not 'mass programming' as you ascertain, but the modern interpretation of cultural practices that human societies have participated for many many generations. Neither is this a 'conspiracy' (unless you are looking at it from a big business perspective and their perversion of every event into a consumerist frenzy, in which case I would agree with you). Of course, one could argue that all festivals and modes of entertainment are a means of social control and a means to prevent the masses from revolution - but then again one could agree with Marx in his suggestion that religion is merely an opiate of the masses.

Even though we do not have a 'carnival' mentality in our modern day society, the traces of it are everywhere. Halloween is a form of legitimised excess and it - like Christmas and indeed all festivals (religious or otherwise) - are essential from stopping society from imploding.

Originally posted by saint4God

It may be [a secular festival] to you. However, maybe someday you'll meet the people who do participate in original and bastardized practices of Halloween/Samhain.

There are a some pretty odd people out there with fairly odd ideas. If they are having animal sacrifices or other 'blood' ceremonies I'd be disgusted. Aside from that, I'd leave them to their own devices.

Originally posted by saint4God

On the contrary, it is indeed religious, but not Christian.

Perhaps for a tiny minority it has religious overtones, but for the vast majority of kids around the world it is just a harmless bit of fun.

Originally posted by saint4God
True it doesn't incorporate Christian worship but then again, that is the whole point of secular celebrations.

Does a Christian need "time away" from God? If so, I'd encourage them to re-evaluate that position.

Religion is not a part of every part of the day. Shopping is not a religious experience. Most films are not a religious experience. The news is not a religious experience etc etc etc. Christians don't need 'time away' from God but that does not mean that Christianity infiltrates every second of every day. One can have fun that is not Christian and still be a Christian - or likewise, any other religion.

Originally posted by saint4God

It can be [pretty harmless], sure. I'm not disputing that and am not here to dictate what everyone should do, only help those who believe in God see where there is a conflict between belief and practice by participating in this holyday.

I don't think there is a conflict. Mind you, one could make every aspect of modern life a conflict between one's religious beliefs if one wanted. Indeed, it isn't just religious beliefs that can be in conflict in modern day society. For instance, is it morally wrong to buy consumer goods that are the product of exploitation of workers in third world countries and merely line the pockets of big business?

Ultimately, everyone has moral lines that cannot be crossed. For me, Halloween can be a bit of fun but at the same time has been corrupted to represent an awful lot that is wrong with our consumer society. I don't get too worked up about it though. Now Christmas is something else entirely...

[edit on 31-10-2005 by kedfr]

I noticed in keeping with the PC trend this is the first time ATS hasnt done something fun for Holloween. I imagine some get offended here too.

Tsk Tsk

You know what? The world isnt changing on its own. WE are changing the world with all our psychological baggage. My kids are too old now but i'm dressing up, sitting on the front porch along with the skeleton, the pumpkins and tons of candy.

Kids need a life too.

There are a fair bit of agree to disagree and I think we both stand our on statements for the jury to decide. A few things I'd like to mention though:

Originally posted by kedfr
Neither is this a 'conspiracy' (unless you are looking at it from a big business perspective and their perversion of every event into a consumerist frenzy, in which case I would agree with you).

I think we're agreed on this point. Money and greed can also be gods.

Originally posted by kedfr
Halloween is a form of legitimised excess and it - like Christmas and indeed all festivals (religious or otherwise) - are essential from stopping society from imploding.

Society is made up of individuals. It is therefore our responsibility as individuals to get as much education about these things as possible and make our decisions accordingly instead of bandwagoning traditions without asking some very important and fundamental questions.

Originally posted by kedfr
There are a some pretty odd people out there with fairly odd ideas. If they are having animal sacrifices or other 'blood' ceremonies I'd be disgusted. Aside from that, I'd leave them to their own devices.

I think most would agree with you....aside from human and animal rights activists.

Originally posted by kedfr
Perhaps for a tiny minority it has religious overtones, but for the vast majority of kids around the world it is just a harmless bit of fun.

I'm not sure instilling fear, acceptance of disturbing things and overdoses of sugar are the right kind of "fun" for children. I've been to my share of parties that I've had to leave because of the "fun" they decided to break out and pass around.

Originally posted by kedfr
Religion is not a part of every part of the day.

I guess Christianity would be classified as "a way of life" instead of a religion in that case.

Originally posted by kedfr
Shopping is not a religious experience. Most films are not a religious experience. The news is not a religious experience etc etc etc.

Of these things, what does a Christian participate in without God?

Originally posted by kedfr
Christians don't need 'time away' from God but that does not mean that Christianity infiltrates every second of every day. One can have fun that is not Christian and still be a Christian

God is a part of every second of every day. To be "without God" is a problem. That's evidenced in the Biblical quotes I've posted.

Originally posted by kedfr
- or likewise, any other religion.

That's really none of my concern.

Originally posted by kedfr
For instance, is it morally wrong to buy consumer goods that are the product of exploitation of workers in third world countries and merely line the pockets of big business?

When we have a choice, we should make the right choice, despite cost.

[edit on 31-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

That's a scarey statement. Mass programming. Sounds like a conspiracy to me

. I say to that Christian to break the mold and take off the blindfold.

I find it funny that a christian is worried about mass programing, when in fact they are just as massed programed as the people the accuse of being programmed, just by a different program.

Originally posted by saint4God
Does a Christian need "time away" from God? If so, I'd encourage them to re-evaluate that position.

Most likely christians need a break from other christians. J/K

Originally posted by saint4God
It can be, sure. I'm not disputing that and am not here to dictate what everyone should do, only help those who believe in God see where there is a conflict between belief and practice by participating in this holyday.

Please don't confuse my belief in God with your belief in your God. Christians don't have a monopoly on the word God.
Sorry I guess this comes off as mean, and that was not my intention.

Originally posted by savagecupid
I find it funny that a christian is worried about mass programing, when in fact they are just as massed programed as the people the accuse of being programmed, just by a different program.

Tongue-in-cheek remark. Get it? Above Top Secret? Conspiracy? If you say the word "conspiracy" once every 5 pages or so, you get bonus points

I don't believe in "Mass Programming" of any kind.

Originally posted by savagecupid
Most likely christians need a break from other christians. J/K

If they're holy-roller, thumper types, then yeah I can understand that. In fact, Christians do need to spend time with non-Christians. What good is to spread the good news to someone who studies it daily and is well versed in it?

Originally posted by saint4God
Please don't confuse my belief in God with your belief in your God.

I'm not. I thought I was quite clear throughout this whole thread (which is apparently baited for a fight) that I'm specifically addressing Christians and have no intention on imposing my beliefs on anyone. Those who believe the same scripture though, should be on the same page as it is written (1 Corinthians 1:10).

Originally posted by saint4God
Christians don't have a monopoly on the word God.

No, but God has a monopoly on Christians

Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry I guess this comes off as mean, and that was not my intention.

S'all good, I thought you were polite. Hope I'm seen the same way. Hey, I recognize your avatar, why is that?

[edit on 31-10-2005 by saint4God]

I scanned my avitar from an old pc gamebox...um magic something, or something magic... like 80's old, so I don't know, why do you recognize it?
Saint I don't have a problem with christian beliefs but I just have a prob with how your bible became what is is today. As far as halloween, God knows what is in your heart better than you do, so in my opinion almost anything is permissable as long as the intention is not evil/bad. (notice please, I said almost anything) From what I have read it seems that christianity was influential in making the day into what it is.

Originally posted by savagecupid
I scanned my avitar from an old pc gamebox...um magic something, or something magic... like 80's old, so I don't know, why do you recognize it?

Not sure. I am a gamer. The figure in the middle looks familiar as well.

Originally posted by savagecupid
Saint I don't have a problem with christian beliefs but I just have a prob with how your bible became what is is today.

I'd be glad to talk about it if you'd like to open a thread on it or U2U me. I could suggest a few that are in progress too if you like.

Originally posted by savagecupid
As far as halloween, God knows what is in your heart better than you do, so in my opinion almost anything is permissable as long as the intention is not evil/bad. (notice please, I said almost anything) From what I have read it seems that christianity was influential in making the day into what it is.

Speeding isn't evil. But there are consequences to our actions...as evidenced by what I get to see on the way home just about every night. Here's a resulting picture of a "good intentioned driver" on the same road I travel:



Does this illustration make sense?

[edit on 31-10-2005 by saint4God]

I cant beleive what i'm seeing and reading.

Trick or treat to a major car crash?

I dont have any idea anymore where your heads are at. Be children and go have some fun, s'il vouz plait

Man had fun last night, went to a HALLOWEEN Party and had fun. Sorry Saint, but no Satan worshipping or baby eating happened, just dancing, soda, food, lots of candy, and me twisting an ankle on those stupid High Heels. I knew I should have stuck with the pink fuzzy slippers. Maybe Halloween is evil, twisting men's ankles everywhere who decide to go as a girl. Although Sandy laughed cause she thought I was faking, so laughter is good, not Satan worshipping, right Saint?

Originally posted by dgtempe
Trick or treat to a major car crash?

Which is why I used the word "illustration". One can have wonderful intentions, but if they are blindly walking into a potentially harmful (I'm talking spiritually here, which is why I'm addressing Christians on the subject) situation, then there is a problem.

Originally posted by Full Metal
Man had fun last night, went to a HALLOWEEN Party and had fun.

And you had to have a Halloween party in order to have this kind of fun? I'm sorry to hear if you have this stigma.

Originally posted by Full Metal
Sorry Saint, but no Satan worshipping or baby eating happened,

Please point our where I said this occurs in secular circles.

Originally posted by Full Metal
just dancing, soda, food, lots of candy, and me twisting an ankle on those stupid High Heels. I knew I should have stuck with the pink fuzzy slippers.

Sounds like a good party, again sorry it had to be crutched upon Samhain.

Originally posted by Full Metal
Maybe Halloween is evil, twisting men's ankles everywhere who decide to go as a girl. Although Sandy laughed cause she thought I was faking, so laughter is good, not Satan worshipping, right Saint?

Crutch.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by dgtempe
Trick or treat to a major car crash?

Which is why I used the word "illustration". One can have wonderful intentions, but if they are blindly walking into a potentially harmful (I'm talking spiritually here, which is why I'm addressing Christians on the subject) situation, then there is a problem.

I understand what you are trying to say saint I just dont agree with it.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? Crashes happen and who is to say speeding realy would have prevented this one? If a christian celebrates halloween with the intention of worshiping anything other than his God, God knows. If he does it in fun and for the kids with no bad intention God still knows. No matter what the outcome the intention is the important thing. As far as saving the blindly walking , if that floats your boat, go for it. But does it realy make a difference in the grand scheme of things, between him and his God? In my opinion, no.

Originally posted by saint4God

Crutch.

Once again someone using a crutch comenting on someone using a crutch.
Sorry I dont get it. Or in otherwords the pot calling the kettle black.

See you all next year around this time.

That's a scarey statement. Mass programming. Sounds like a conspiracy to me . I say to that Christian to break the mold and take off the blindfold.

Mass programming? I certainly would have to include Christianity in there my friend. I would suggest some Christians "break the mold" and realize that dedication to GOD does not have to include "worship", and "idleology"(sp).

The answers are everywhere, and many Christians are now turning negative towards anything that involves man's reasoning. I have noticed many have given up on man, and don't seem to think man can solve the problems of the world. What a terrible shame. When one gives up on man he also gives up on GOD.

Well, was just getting ready to add my two cents but I see "saint4god"
has abandoned the discussion. I'm a Christian, evangelical, fundamentalist, charismatic with a pentecostal background, and I LOVE
Halloween. God DOES know the heart, and the scripture says nothing is evil in itself, which tells me that the evil lies in the intention of the heart.

Trick or treat away, after all, there's a lot of hatred out there going around
dressed all up as righteousness. Rather unconvincingly I might add.

Here's a good link, if it hasn't already been posted:

www.featherlessbiped.com...


I loved the "see you next year" comment, which tells me that the sole purpose of "saint4god's" visit was to bash Halloween. These are the same people who consider giving extra money to their church so they can pad their pews God's work, and fighting real evil and doing real good work
is as foreign to them as tolerance and compassion. I used to be one of these, and no doubt to some I would be considered "backslidden". I prefer to believe that I simply grew up. I still believe in and love God. I still look to Christ for my salvation. I just know after years of experience that many of the things we hold as sacred truth can suddenly and without warning be pulled out from under us, with the exception of who Christ is and who we are in Him. It is not up to me (or any of you) to decide if someone letting their child dress as a witch or a vampire negates their belief and dedication to Christ. This is ludicrous, as intolerance and hatred does this much more effectively. I have learned to leave such things to God, and to simply enjoy my blessings.

Peace

Originally posted by marg6043
This is about giving candy treats to the children not a fight between Good and evil.

No, its about the fight between me and other peoples' pumpkins.

O, and free candy.

I don't see how it worships satan, (as he isnt even real IMO) but rather, is simply a bastardization of all hollows eve by candy companies