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All body armor....well almost.

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posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 08:26 AM
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And this week I have been mostly eating...




posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 09:56 AM
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Looks like a nice bit of kit for stationary duties, like top cover or stags. The problem with body armour is that the more of it you wear, the heavier and less mobile you become and are therefore easier to hit in the first place. It's a nice idea though. Maybe if it were used as a modular system, i.e. certain parts of it were incorporated dependant on the mission (loads of bits for static duties, central armour for patrols etc.).

ps. Bayonets don't run out of ammo.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 10:26 AM
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I see your point as it being used as a tool (wirecutter is the only one that comes to mind) but as a tool in secondary roles its a pretty weak one, A custom multi tool would be far more effective.

Bayonets are awesome, not the old sheet stamped ones, but the new bayonets made by Ontario knife that have fully replaced the old ones in the Marine Corps, not sure about the Army.

It's like a Ka-Bar, but it's not.

Anyways, the basic combat load is about as basic as it's can be. The only way to lighten it up is to make the materials lighter, not to get rid of gear. Most of it is personalized, many soldiers and Marines like to bring poncho liners, a gazillion power bars, beef jerky, 550 cord, zip-ties, caribiners, personel GPS's, etc...etc... which, IMPO, is all essential gear.

sporty



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by ignorant_ape

if you could not achieve your objective with 180 rounds , will 210 REALLY make a difference ?


A bigger difference then a knife would

If you cant achieve your objective with 180 rounds do you really think a bayonet is going to make a difference? Thats the real question.

Never ever bring a knife to a gun fight!




also how will a single extra clip help you :

control prisoners

probe for mines

force back rioters

etc etc etc


Well the only one I can agree with is the probe for mines which a custom army multi-tool could do better. Wirecutting would go along with that still very useful in modern combat.

In riots you are almost always outnumbered and often not allowed to use lethal force. What good is a lethal weapon like a knife going to do when your out numbered 10-100 to 1? Why does police riot gear not include a knife? Riots do require special gear Teargas,rubber bullets etc.. not a knife.

Controlling prisoners- Im not fluent in every part of the Geneva convention but I doubt you are allowed to bayonet unarmed prisoners of war. If there are any case where the geneva convention would allow you to use lethal force with a prisoner (say he gets a hold of a weapon) your just as justified using a much more effective bullet.

A bayonet might have a use in training but so does the pugil-stick but we dont bring them to war. Just my view on the subject and it seems the US military does not agree with me since they have been taking entries for the XM8 / Army / Marine Corp Bayonet upgrade project.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 06:36 PM
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The bayonet is more tradition than anything, and in close quarters fighting, it never hurts to have a sharp, pointy blade on the end of your barrel.
Btw, they dont weight that much. It would take alot for the military to reconsider the bayonet.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by Captain_Sensible
While it is true that if you have to resort to bayonets it is going to get messy, but I would still rather have a stabby thingy than just the butt when worst comes to worst.


But would you rather have 30 more rounds then the Bayonet? You drop that weight and you can take more ammo. Thats what most people that want the bayonet gone have take its place.


I do not know how much the bayonet used by your Army weighs, but I can tell
you for damn sure that the British standard issue one does not weigh as much as 30 rounds of 5.56mm (Or 28 rounds inside a magazine).
Also a bayonet can be used in escape and evasion.
In Bravo Two Zero (SAS patrol in the Gulf War that went pear shaped) one man, Chris Ryan (The one that got away) had to resort to killing two Iraqi soldiers with his knife (Tore the throat out of one man) to make sure he remained undetected.
If a tired, hungry and desperate Marine/Ranger/G.I seperated from his unit died out in the desert because he had to take on a couple insurgents with just his rifle butt would that be considered acceptable?



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by Captain_Sensible


I do not know how much the bayonet used by your Army weighs, but I can tell
you for damn sure that the British standard issue one does not weigh as much as 30 rounds of 5.56mm (Or 28 rounds inside a magazine).


I havent looked into the exact weights but since you brought it up I did.

The U.S Army M9 Bayonet and Scabbard weighs 1 lb 11 oz. 200 rounds of 5.56NATO weighed 6.25 pounds. So 30 rounds weighs under 1 pound 9.375 to be exact I think. So infact if you drop the M-9 Bayonet you can carry close to 60 rounds extra. The older M-7 Bayonet is lighter but you can still take 30rds for the weight

Man you must use some extra light Bayonet and Scabbard in the UK you event some new alloy your not telling us yanks about?


M-9 weight

5.56 weight



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 05:26 AM
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The mags that we use are the new H&K ones issued with the SA80A2. These mags are the same weight empty as the old ones are full. They are however many times more reliable than the RG or Colt issue mags.



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 06:38 AM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
I havent looked into the exact weights but since you brought it up I did.

The U.S Army M9 Bayonet and Scabbard weighs 1 lb 11 oz. 200 rounds of 5.56NATO weighed 6.25 pounds. So 30 rounds weighs under 1 pound 9.375 to be exact I think. So infact if you drop the M-9 Bayonet you can carry close to 60 rounds extra. The older M-7 Bayonet is lighter but you can still take 30rds for the weight

Man you must use some extra light Bayonet and Scabbard in the UK you event some new alloy your not telling us yanks about?


M-9 weight

5.56 weight


Shadow,

I dont quite see what your getting at, 60 ruonds more or less wont mean squat in a QCB charge.
If I have a sharp pointy thing on the end of my blunt bangy thing then logically the blunt bangy thing because even more dangerous and means I have an extra non run outable weapony thing, that make sense?



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 03:17 PM
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That post was just in response to Captain_Sensible saying he was "dam sure" a UK bayonet does not way as much 30rds of .233 ammo. Maybe he forgot about the scabbard. I havent found the weight of the SA80 bayonet and scabbard but I doubt its much lighter then a US M-7 or M-9.

As for CQB some of the most effective weapons for CQB on the planet the MP-5 and Shotgun cant even fix a bayonet I wonder why. But I already voiced enough of my opinions on the obsolescence of the bayonet in this thread.



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
As for CQB some of the most effective weapons for CQB on the planet the MP-5 and Shotgun cant even fix a bayonet I wonder why. But I already voiced enough of my opinions on the obsolescence of the bayonet in this thread.

I dont think you have...
I also dont see how because 2 weapons dont have it makes it obsolete?
I mean what happens when you run out of ammo?



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 04:25 PM
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Body armor for 2025:


Notice that this is what ShadowXIX is wearing in his pic?



The uniform might be made out of fabric treated with another technology featured in the conference's exhibit hall, shear thickening fluid. Unofficially referred to by some as liquid body armor, STF is made of equal parts polyethylene glycol – an inert, non-toxic thickening agent used in a variety of common products, like some ice creams – and miniscule glass particles, said Eric Wetzel, who heads the STF project team in the Weapons and Materials Research Directorate of the U.S. Army Research Laboratory.

www.military.com...

Combat knife//bayonet:
My opinion: a knife is so important that I carry 3 of them. If one of them is a bayonet, ok by me.

Ammo load:
Basic truth in combat: Whoever runs out of ammo first, loses the battle.

And don't forget the future soldier's little buddy "PackBot", to carry his pack!:


www.natick.army.mil...



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

I dont think you have...
I also dont see how because 2 weapons dont have it makes it obsolete?
I mean what happens when you run out of ammo?


I dont want to hijack this guys thread and make it about bayonets when its about armor.

But its quite clear IMHO why you dont see bayonets of the best CQC weapons and theres alot more then 2 (MP-5, MP-7 , FN90, AKSU, UZI, Spaz-12 etc..) simple because they are just not that importnat in CQC. Dont bring a knife to a gun fight.



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
I dont want to hijack this guys thread and make it about bayonets when its about armor.

Well , are these things bayonet proof?


But its quite clear IMHO why you dont see bayonets of the best CQC weapons and theres alot more then 2 (MP-5, MP-7 , FN90, AKSU, UZI, Spaz-12 etc..) simple because they are just not that importnat in CQC. Dont bring a knife to a gun fight.

Well all of the below are able to be fired single handed, no need.
Except the shotgun, the shotgun is an exception.
IMO its needed valuabley important in CQC for the simple reason; what if you run out of ammo?



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
That post was just in response to Captain_Sensible saying he was "dam sure" a UK bayonet does not way as much 30rds of .233 ammo. Maybe he forgot about the scabbard. I havent found the weight of the SA80 bayonet and scabbard but I doubt its much lighter then a US M-7 or M-9.


I do not know how much the scabbard weighs, it is a part of the P.L.C.E webbing system I think (Cordura?).

Here is the bayonet (The handle is fixed over the muzzle, there is a gap for the gun to fire through).

www.surplusandoutdoors.com...

Here is the complete bayonet and scabbard system (Sorry it's the best website I could find).

cgi.ebay.co.uk...
W0QQitemZ6570325238QQcategoryZ67584QQrdZ1QQcmdZV
iewItem#ebayphotohosting

I will just point out that I am not military/ex-military, I was only in the Army Cadets so I could be very wrong!



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
I dont want to hijack this guys thread and make it about bayonets when its about armor.

Well , are these things bayonet proof?


But its quite clear IMHO why you dont see bayonets of the best CQC weapons and theres alot more then 2 (MP-5, MP-7 , FN90, AKSU, UZI, Spaz-12 etc..) simple because they are just not that importnat in CQC. Dont bring a knife to a gun fight.

Well all of the below are able to be fired single handed, no need.
Except the shotgun, the shotgun is an exception.
IMO its needed valuabley important in CQC for the simple reason; what if you run out of ammo?


Where the vest has its hard armour plate it is indeed stab proof but soft kevlar is not stab proof but can be made so quite easily. Police in the UK have stab proof vest all you really do is add some strong fibers into the kevlar. But the military does not see the need to make its soft armour stab proof.

I could fire my AK-47 full size single handed but I aint hitting anything. Have you ever tried to fire a SMG single handed? You aint hitting crap like that they are designed to by fired with both hands on the gun.That single hand SMG stuff looks good in movies but in real life it drastical reduces accuracy.

But I dont really see the point concerning bayonets and firing a weapon with one hand. Do you think they are holding a MP- 5 in one hand and a knife in the other? The best trained groups in CQC SEALS,SAS,Delta force use weapons like the MP-5 in CQC and you cant put a bayonet on it. If a bayonet was so important to CQC why would these highly trained men use a weapon that cant use one?



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Where the vest has its hard armour plate it is indeed stab proof but soft kevlar is not stab proof but can be made so quite easily. Police in the UK have stab proof vest all you really do is add some strong fibers into the kevlar. But the military does not see the need to make its soft armour stab proof.

A weakness easily exploited.


I could fire my AK-47 full size single handed but I aint hitting anything. Have you ever tried to fire a SMG single handed? You aint hitting crap like that they are designed to by fired with both hands on the gun.That single hand SMG stuff looks good in movies but in real life it drastical reduces accuracy.

You can fire an MP7 with one hand, only slightly larger than a pistol.
Yes they are designed to be fired with both hands on the gun but there are diffrent styles of holding it and diffrent versions of SMG's.


But I dont really see the point concerning bayonets and firing a weapon with one hand. Do you think they are holding a MP- 5 in one hand and a knife in the other? The best trained groups in CQC SEALS,SAS,Delta force use weapons like the MP-5 in CQC and you cant put a bayonet on it. If a bayonet was so important to CQC why would these highly trained men use a weapon that cant use one?

They still carry a bayonet with them, an MP5 is only effective if it has ammo and the basic trooper aint gona carry several thousands of rounds with him to make sure he doesnt run out of ammo.

Sure the SF teams dont use it in some situations they do use it in others.
Regular troops also use it as a pyscological weapon as well, look up Argylls and iraq, its an effective CQB weapon. Also yet again, what do you do when you run out of ammo?



posted on Oct, 22 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
. Also yet again, what do you do when you run out of ammo?


Well then you put in your extra clip your able to carry thanks to getting rid of that knife

If you run out of ammo and the enemy still has ammo you dont rush them with a knife thats for sure. You retreat wait for resupply or surrender if you value your life.



posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 02:19 AM
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I think it looks pretty effective, still looks a little cumbersome, but better then some other full body armor ones that resemble bomb suits.

I think this should be good enough, until that future Force Warrior one is complete...that thing seems pretty badass, with a bullet proof helmet w/ face shield and all.



This is a little off topic...But what the hell, armor is armor.
AF testing new transparent armor.


Engineers here are testing a new kind of transparent armor -- stronger and lighter than traditional materials -- that could stop armor-piercing weapons from penetrating vehicle windows.



"The substance itself is light years ahead of glass," he said, adding that it offers "higher performance and lighter weight."



ALONtm is virtually scratch resistant, offers substantial impact resistance, and provides better durability and protection against armor piercing threats, at roughly half the weight and half the thickness of traditional glass transparent armor, said the lieutenant.

USAF Article
ALON maker


Its good to see armor for vehicles and people getting so much R&D.



posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 02:44 AM
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If it gets to the stage where you are having to choose between carrying a mag and a bayonet, you are in a sorry state. If it got to that stage, there are certainly other bits of kit that I would bin before either. I would always find somewhere to carry that extra mag or a bayonet for when my SA80 has a stoppage (no replies about the SA80 please!). I would rather have a knife and not need it that need it and not have it. The SA80 is not a particularly good bayonet fighting weapon. If it came down to it, I would rather use my ETH (folding shovel) in a hand to hand scrap. Thing is, I can't carry it at the same time as my rifle. It is also slower to deploy than the bayonet.

As for stabbing body armour, even the non-stab proof stuff is hard to get through. I know of at least 2 guys in my platoon who were saved by their (non-stab proof) CBA in riots in NI. BTW, they were stabbed in the gut, not the ceramic plate in the chest. I can also tell you that the infantryman is trained nowadays to aim for the head/face/throat when using a bayonet due to everyone and his dog having body armour.



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