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Why sinners hate God.

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posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
You have to be kidding. With that kind of logic then if someone kills someone else who are we to arrest them and put them on trial for murder. After all they probably had a reason for killing them, one that makes sense to them. And who's to say killing is wrong, after all maybe there is no wrong. Wow!

Who said anything about killing--or otherwise damaging another soul? Context! Good grief!
Don't read this forums as if they were a bible--think about the setting in which a statement is made, and the subject it is relative to.

I am speaking of spiritual things--who are any of us to judge another? To say I am right and you are wrong in what you believe is unjust judgment, according to the flesh. It's meaningless and harmful for both parties involved.

As far as things concerning murder, arresting suspects and putting them on trial--that's nothing I see fit to involve myself with--although certainly I know it to be the responsible thing on the part of the authorities. From my own perspective and experience, what is always 'wrong' for me is to be selfishly concerned only with my own benefit and profit. That kind of mind-set is always the motivation for damaging another person, by murder, rape, etc...

At the same time, I know humans are incapable of perfect justice and the courts aren't always accurate in their verdicts. But that's nothing I can change or judge. I've not been called to jury duty, yet, and I hope I never am. If I am, I guess I will just do what I must. But I don't seek to be the jury
over another soul, any more than I desire to dictate to another person what they should place their faith in.

Because the bottom line is that I can't change the heart of another, only God can do that. So I certainly don't need to spend my time maligning His character with dogmatic indoctrinated words that make fealty to Him seem like something which is negative in any way--it is better to be a beacon than a loud-speaker.




posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Who said anything about killing--or otherwise damaging another soul? Context!


You said we cannot know right and wrong from a limited perspective and to be right or wrong is meaningless. God lets us know right and wrong through the Bible. How can being right or wrong be meaningless, that's part of why Christ came so we could know right from wrong and do right and shun wrong.

Jesus tells us to go into all the world and preach the gospel. The gospel is ,man is seperated from God by his sin and Christ came to remove that sin for any who will come to Him by faith, of course we are to tell that.



posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
I agree that's what people think. Everyone does what is right in their own eyes.

That's not what God says, there are absolute rights and wrongs.


God is more guilty than anyone else of putting his own will above the ideals of right and wrong.

Of course, the typical response is that god's will is 'right' by definition and anything that opposes it is 'wrong' by definition. But then, there is no absolute right and wrong, as the concepts are then simply relative to god's will, and god seems to value allegiance to god over all else.

So, it's good to commit genocide if god tells you to, or to be willing to kill your own child if god commands it. At any moment, what you consider to be right and wrong could be turned upside down by a command from god.



posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
Who said anything about killing--or otherwise damaging another soul? Context!


You said we cannot know right and wrong from a limited perspective and to be right or wrong is meaningless. God lets us know right and wrong through the Bible. How can being right or wrong be meaningless, that's part of why Christ came so we could know right from wrong and do right and shun wrong.
No, He came to shine the light of truth upon us in this darkness--so that we might know what true righteousness is (not to be confused with 'right'--righteousness is being just and equitable to all beings) and to know that death is not our prison--by literal demonstration He showed us that above all things we must love, forgive, show kindness, mercy and be just in our dealings with all men, on every level.


Jesus tells us to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
No, He said 'go and teach all things that I have commanded you.' Which I pretty much covered in the above paragraph. He never once said 'threaten all who don't believe in me with going to hell.' He did say 'I came not to judge the world but to save the world,' and 'those who believe not in me are already condemned.' He condemned no one--nor did He do anything more toward one of us than any of the other. He said if anyone love Him, and the Father, and do as He commanded (love, love, love) then they would make their abode with him. Anyone who loves God! How is making God out to be a tryrant of unfair judgment encouraging others to love Him? God makes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on both the just and the unjust. Why must we insist on making Him out to be some petty creature in our own image, rather than being content to aspire toward His nature which is revealed to us, bit by bit, as we continue to heed the 'sayings' of His son? Which, again, is love, love, love, and don't forget the mercy, kindness, forgiveness, and gentleness. Charity is what makes faith valid--without love, faith is dead.


The gospel is ,man is seperated from God by his sin and Christ came to remove that sin for any who will come to Him by faith, of course we are to tell that.
Gospel means 'good news.' The first half of yours is disaster--not that it didn't happen like that, but that is not 'good news.' The 'good news' is that we have been redeemed. The whole world. Not just 'christians' and not just those who seek to escape from hell. And to know what's really been accomplished will only bring God the glory which is deserved--since He created none of us to be destroyed or in vain.

Christ never said anything about 'coming to Him in faith,' what He did say, according to scripture, is that no man could come to Him unless drawn by the Father--and then later said that by being 'lifted up' He would draw all men unto Him. We are to believe in the truth of the resurrection--but, truly, it is nigh impossible for people to believe that essential thing when it is promoted in the company of conflicting and often, hypocritical behavior. Who would believe something so unbelievably incredible when it's spoken by a mouth that speaks ill of man but good of a God who is choosy toward man? It makes no sense!! It causes the gospel to be esteemed as nonsense--and something not real, and therefore not worth sincere investigation.



posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 03:23 PM
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Kedfr,
Personally, I think you have to go with what you think is right in your own heart. Me? I think two sins that don't get much treatment in the bible are intolerance and ignorance - two concepts that many people (christians and non-christians). While I am always impressed with Christians who struggle with their faith and write in a scholarly and thoughtful manner, the hell-fire and damnation approach has never done much for me. One should always question one's beliefs, not just recite it without thinking. Rights and wrongs are subjective. I'm sorry but you'll have to do an awful lot of convincing to make me believe otherwise.


God has given you the right to refuse Him and it seems that you have made that choice for now. It’s not uncommon for a man to chose to follow what he thinks is right and to follow his heart. This type of thinking has been going on from the beginning.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.


Proverbs 28:26
He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.


The wisdom God is trying to impart in these two scriptures is that the heart and mind of man is evil and incapable of finding the truth or life by itself. When a person decides to make his own way and do what he thinks is right he inevitably makes wrong choices and moves away from God.

I can appreciate your dislike for those like myself who preach Hellfire as a part of their teachings. I too once ran from Hellfire preaching and I considered myself a Christian at the time! It deeply disturbed me that I might spend an eternity in Hell or that anyone would go there. At one point early in my Christian walk I watched a television show taught by a man who was a universalism teacher. These people believe that Hell does not exist as an eternal place of torment. It was a relief to my itching ears to hear this teaching and I began to consider it with great anticipation.

My euphoria didn’t last long. As I searched the scriptures I could clearly see where this universal teacher was misquoting scripture and leaving out other scriptures that he could not refute. My terror of Hell came back threefold and it was this terror that brought me to my knees in repentance. I not only feared going to Hell but I began to understand why Hell was necessary. From the moment I humbled myself before God the Holy Ghost began to open my eyes to the harder teachings of the Bible. I began to appreciate God’s Holiness and justice and could see that those who defied Him must be punished in a manner befitting the greatness of Him whom they have mocked.

We see our sins as slight because we see them from our own sinful eyes. God is not a man, He is Holy and without sin. He is also immensely powerful and deserves to be feared (real fear for non-Christians, held in awe for Christians) and respected. Who are we that we think to oppose God? We are dust and ashes but God is eternal.

If you want to understand Hell and its purpose you must first understand the whole nature of God. If you keep coming at God from a human perspective you’ll never understand why Hell must exist or understand the true nature of sin.

In Christ,

James



posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 03:59 PM
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Queenannie38,
Christ never said anything about 'coming to Him in faith,' what He did say, according to scripture, is that no man could come to Him unless drawn by the Father--and then later said that by being 'lifted up' He would draw all men unto Him. We are to believe in the truth of the resurrection--but, truly, it is nigh impossible for people to believe that essential thing when it is promoted in the company of conflicting and often, hypocritical behavior. Who would believe something so unbelievably incredible when it's spoken by a mouth that speaks ill of man but good of a God who is choosy toward man? It makes no sense!! It causes the gospel to be esteemed as nonsense--and something not real, and therefore not worth sincere investigation.


Go to this link and type in the words, “faith” and “believed” and look at all the scripture that demands everyone to believe or have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

www.blueletterbible.org...

I got tired of typing it all out there are hundreds of scriptures that proclaim the need for faith in Jesus Christ or belief in Him to be saved. Queenannie38, once again you have thrown your own private interpretation into the mix and tried to refute the most basic and necessary element of the gospel. Faith and belief in Jesus Christ for salvation is not an option. Without faith in Him you have no hope.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.


And on and on it goes…

The Bible is filled with God telling mankind that he is evil and without hope. God is indeed perfect and every man a liar. The gospel is only esteemed as nonsense by those who will perish in Hell. For those that come to Jesus Christ in faith and believe in Him they will be justified and His blood will cover them before God. You have no chance to stand right before God Queenannie38 outside of faith in Christ. You ranted a bit in this post saying that the gospel is nonsense to you if what Christians say is true. I agree with you. The Bible is nonsense to those who have not placed their faith solely in Jesus Christ for salvation. Until you do that first step you’ll be in constant struggle with the scriptures and be totally incapable of understanding the plain truth of the gospel.


In Christ,

James



posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 09:10 PM
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Machine, I know you will not understand this concept, because I am pretty sure you must have been raised with a fear of hell so it wll never go away from you thoughts. For this I am sorry. God is devine. God is not human and doe not let anger control his/her actions. God does not let ego get in the way and is not petty. Now you want to talk about sin, hellfire bible thumpers have the worst sin. That is a judgementa,l make god look like some petty tyrant sin. My God is not a petty tyrant. Please stop preaching like he/she is petty.

Life is actcually quite simple. Do not trespass. Do not harm to others, if you do, learn from it and try not to do it again. Harm none do what thou wilt. Love yourself, love others, respect yourself, respect others. If you are empathetic and loving, learn from you mistakes and harm none, then you have succeeded. When you try and state I am a sinner because I do not repent to Jesus I will go to hell and my beleifs are wrong, do you not see that you are harming me? That is sin. That is wrong for you to do that to me.

Harm none, this includes yourself. Love and forgive and understand. These are the ways of God. Not some petty idol worship thing you have. There is nothing wrong with worshipping the devine, I do it myself. To say that I am goping to hell for doing the worship my way while I do not harm myself or others?

This is what is cousing people to turn away from your religion, I have been to, In my previous profession to over a thousand churches my friend, and there is one tragic underlying fact with all of the denominations. The people are for the most part, growing old and dying. Sure these mega give them entertainment churches are popping up but it is a flash in the pan.

Build your faith on love and understanding, fogiveness and peace and you would have a revival of the christain faith. Keep up this blind crazed intolerance and it will fall to the wayside.


In love and light.

I commit the sin of so many typos, that I cannot even keep up with them!

[edit on 23-10-2005 by LoneGunMan]



posted on Oct, 23 2005 @ 11:44 PM
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LoneGunMan,
Machine, I know you will not understand this concept, because I am pretty sure you must have been raised with a fear of hell so it wll never go away from you thoughts. For this I am sorry.


I praise God constantly that He has opened my eyes and revealed the reality of Hell to me. My God could have chosen to leave me in the dust but through no merit of my own He came for me and brought me into the truth of His Word. I wrestled with the concept of Hell for quite some time before I finally submitted to God’s wisdom and began to understand the need for a Hell and the purpose for which it serves. A day hasn’t gone by that my heart has not been filled with joy at the thought of not spending one moment in Hell! Praise and glory be to God, forever!








LoneGunMan,
God is devine. God is not human and doe not let anger control his/her actions. God does not let ego get in the way and is not petty.


That may well be the god that you serve but it’s not the God that I serve. My God is a jealous God and in His anger He does not sin!

Exodus 20:3-6
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exodus 4:14
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, [Is] not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.

Numbers 11:1
And [when] the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard [it]; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed [them that were] in the uttermost parts of the camp.


My God is a God of deep feeling and passion and I would have it no other way. Without passion there can be no true love. The thought that God is passionate for me and ever watchful against those who would harm me brings tears of joy down my cheeks whenever I meditate on it. You can have your god of pleasantries and meaningless love as for me and my house, we shall serve the LORD!








LoneGunMan,
Now you want to talk about sin, hellfire bible thumpers have the worst sin. That is a judgementa,l make god look like some petty tyrant sin. My God is not a petty tyrant. Please stop preaching like he/she is petty.


As I said before we are not worshipping the same God. You are free to worship your false god to your hearts glee but in the end you’ll find him without meaning or power to deliver you from the wrath to come.









LoneGunMan, Life is actcually quite simple. Do not trespass. Do not harm to others, if you do, learn from it and try not to do it again. Harm none do what thou wilt. Love yourself, love others, respect yourself, respect others. If you are empathetic and loving, learn from you mistakes and harm none, then you have succeeded.


You left someone out of your mantra. In all your efforts to harm none you harmed the one being that is most important, The LORD God almighty. In your sin and disobedience to God you have denied the LORD Jesus Christ and therefore disconnected yourself from the only power that can save you. If you were to live the rest of your short life out without repenting to God do you know what that would make you at this very moment?

It places you in the position of being a sinner in the hands of an angry God! There are Billions of people in Hell right now who are under torment for their sins but you in your many sins are still living in relative pleasure. You are a rank sinner who lives from one moment to the next in total rebellion against a Holy God but yet you live. God is now more angry with you in your present state than He is with the Billions in Hell right now because they at least are suffering punishment.








LoneGunMan,
When you try and state I am a sinner because I do not repent to Jesus I will go to hell and my beleifs are wrong, do you not see that you are harming me? That is sin. That is wrong for you to do that to me.


Not according to God’s Word. According to God’s Word I harm you when I see that you are not saved and I look the other way and keep walking. My God will not hold me blameless if I see someone like you who is destined for Hellfire and I don’t try and warn you.

Ezekiel 3:18
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.


Do you see that! God will hold your blood accountable to me if I fail to warn you! It takes courage to come onto these forums and warn the people that they are standing in judgment. Most will hate me for this and think me mad but some hearing His Word will repent and be saved








LoneGunMan,
I commit the sin of so many typos, that I cannot even keep up with them!


That’s ok, praise God no one will ever go to Hell for making typing mistakes. You have communicated your position to me and I could care less if the letters were perfectly laid out or not so perfect.


In Christ,


James



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 02:56 AM
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Machine.

Your posts here have sickened me to the core. You were born into your beliefs out of fear, you said it yourself. The darkness from which that fear was created you now pass onto others under the guise of the enlightened Christian.

There is nothing Christlike about you.

Several people have tried to point out that you way of delivering your message was what turns people away from religion and their words are lost on you.

You do great harm and your words are a wound upon the goodness that faith is supposed to bring into the world.

Your "hellfire" approach, the "pity" you feel for others.

You are not a force for goodness and you cannot see that.

Later.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by Grimholt
Machine.

Your posts here have sickened me to the core. You were born into your beliefs out of fear, you said it yourself. The darkness from which that fear was created you now pass onto others under the guise of the enlightened Christian.

There is nothing Christlike about you.

Several people have tried to point out that you way of delivering your message was what turns people away from religion and their words are lost on you.

You do great harm and your words are a wound upon the goodness that faith is supposed to bring into the world.

Your "hellfire" approach, the "pity" you feel for others.

You are not a force for goodness and you cannot see that.


Grimholt, I was going to post something along the same lines. Surely if someone wants to be Christian they should do it because of a selfless desire to do good for ones fellow man. I have the deepest respect for kindly, spiritual people who are religious - more often than not they are thoughtful, intelligent and tolerant people who struggle through their faith. However, those who proclaim themselves to be Christian merely because they are fearful of hell are not just misguided but ultimately selfish & self-serving. They don't care for their fellow man, but only for themselves and their souls. It is quite repugnant.

[edit on 24-10-2005 by kedfr]



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 04:53 AM
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Hi James,
I just wanted to let you know that I have agreed with everything you have said to these people!
Satan has a mighty hold of them! It is a shame! All we can do for them at this point, is to pray for them, that God will give them a Christian friend or someone that they will really listen to. I have been on other websites in attempt to evangelize others as well, and I had pretty much the same reaction.
All I can say is pray, pray, and PRAY some more!
Sincerely, your Sister in Christ, Bridget

By the way, in the beginning of this thread, someone said that we shouldn't use the Bible to prove Christianity.
If you wanted to prove the existance of the President, wouldn't the first place you would look be the White House?



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 05:47 AM
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Wow.. what a co-incidence that Sister Bridget should show up to show Machine support in his hour of need!! Wow. I am now convinced. Onward christian soldiers!
Will god give you a two for one deal or what?



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 06:00 AM
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Originally posted by just me 2
By the way, in the beginning of this thread, someone said that we shouldn't use the Bible to prove Christianity.
If you wanted to prove the existance of the President, wouldn't the first place you would look be the White House?


Not a good analogy. Bush wasn't even legitimately elected in as president in 2000 and over the past five years has shown himself to not be an even half-way competant president. Moreover, if you went looking in the White House to try and find him, odds are he wouldn't be there - most of the time he's off on holiday somewhere (I believe nearly a year of his 5 years in office has been spent on vacation).

Joking aside, your argument is invalid. Surely the argument is not whether the Christianity exists but whether it is right. No one has argued that Christianity as a religion does not exist but plenty do not agree that the bible is the direct word of god, nor that everything inside it is 'true'.

In any case, I would go looking at the evidence of churches and christians as evidence of Christianity, more than the bible. The bible is a book and a book is not evidence of organised religion - but the christians themselves are the evidence of its existance. Christianity was around before anyone wrote it down into written format. The bible just helped to codify it and structure the religion on a mass scale.

As to 'proving' Christianity, neither the bible nor any scientific evidence can do that. Indeed, you - as a Christian - should know that 'proof' should not come into the equation. Christianity - like all religions - is about faith not 'proof'. Proof & evidence is irrelevant when it comes to belief.

[edit on 24-10-2005 by kedfr]



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt
Jesus tells us to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
No, He said 'go and teach all things that I have commanded you.'


No read Mark 16:15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He sure did say go preach the gospel. I want to encourage anyone who reads posts to check things out in the Bible for themselves, so that you can know for sure and not be led astray. Teaching is a part of that but preach is the word used.

[edit on 24-10-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


And does it say what to do if the creature then says, "Hey, that's just crazy. I don't believe it. Would you please go away?"



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Originally posted by dbrandt
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


And does it say what to do if the creature then says, "Hey, that's just crazy. I don't believe it. Would you please go away?"



A christian is to keep working, because we know people's eternal destiny is at stake.

You are the one who is reading a post dealing with God, I didn't make you come in here and read this. Obviously you are interested in the subject of God, which is good, you should be. Yes we are to tell others about Christ by our actions also, that is also important. But think about where we are at. We are on an internet message board. Actions can't be seen, it's words that are used in this type of a setting, so expect to HEAR about Christ.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
Gospel means 'good news.' The first half of yours is disaster--not that it didn't happen like that, but that is not 'good news.'


There is bad news for mankind, we are seperated from God. The Good News is that doesn't have to be the case anymore, Christ came to take your sin away if you will place your faith in Him.

Of course it says we are to believe and have faith in Christ completed work on our behalf. You also didn't know He said we are to preach the gospel, so now I question if you have ever read the Bible for yourself or not.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by Machine
I have simply told you and the other members of this board the truth.
You are confused--your opinion does not constitute unquestionable 'truth' in any way--nor does mine. Therefore the 'liar' accusation is totally inappropriate -- beside the fact that it's rude and if I wanted to, I could probably sue for you for slander and/or libel--not that I would, I personally feel that's wrong for me to do, in any case, but you really ought to consider your words before they are issued.


That I’m absolute in my understanding of this truth comes from many years of study and a deep understanding of God and a total belief in His Word.
That ‘absoluteness’ is usually called ‘narrow-mindedness,’ but suit yourself—what you call it has no effect on what it actually is.


There’s nothing new in my form of communicating God’s Word. Many men of God have spoken directly and clearly concerning the basic doctrines of Christian belief.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)
For doctrines taught by Christ, refer to Matthew chapters 5-7.


If you think I speak in an aggressive manner concerning Christianity you should see a real preacher in action! A great man of God like, Jonathan Edwards, who wrote the sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”?
No thanks—I have no need to listen to such rubbish. Who is Jonathan Edwards, anyway? What makes him a ‘great man of God?’ Is not God the only one who is good? How can any man be ‘great’, then? A servant is never better than his master.

www.jonathanedwards.com...



The reason why I call you a liar Queenannie38 is because you have shown yourself to be a liar.
No I have not. Nor have you proven such an ugly allegation in any way. You call me a liar because I don’t agree with your hell-preaching ideas being scripturally sound. Somehow this seems to threaten your ideas (since if all are to be saved, your ‘special’ status with God is null and void). In no way am I offensive to you, but yet you are offended to the point of making rash accusations about my character, about which truly you have not the slightest inkling—because you don’t even care to make the effort to discern what I am about aside from what your perception colors in, based on your attachment to the way you want God to be.



Your ignorance will not protect you when you stand before God at The Great White Throne Judgment.
That’s ridiculous, Machine—I’m not ignorant nor am I going to need protection—I do not judge nor condemn.

You will give account of yourself before God and if you do not repent of your false teachings and accept Jesus Christ as your LORD and saviour prior to your death you will be thrown into The Lake of Fire and suffer eternally.
That’s hogwash, James.


You say that I have no proof that you are a liar but the Holy Scripture backs me up on this judgment of your false teachings.
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

What are you talking about? How is that ‘proof’ of me being a liar?

I’ll answer your questions, James—even though I’ve said as much in other posts (which obviously you don’t even do me the courtesy of carefully reading before you clatter upon your keyboard to reply with hasty and vehement accusations.)

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was and is God in the flesh?
Yes I do, James.


Do you accept Him as LORD and saviour over your life?
Something like 29 years ago I did—and I’ve not drawn back in all that time. I also was baptized by a bona-fide preacher in a legitimate Christian church—for the remission of sins—just as I understood I was to do, according to Mark 16:16. However, I didn’t do it out of a desire to avoid hell—I did it because that was what I understood that God wanted me to do. My only desire has always been to not be a disappointment to my Creator, in any way.


Do you believe that He died for your sins and rose again on the third day?
I believe 100% in His sacrifice as the Passover victim—and also 100% in the truth and reality of the resurrection.


Do you believe that there is no other way that a person can be made right before God save the shed blood of Jesus Christ?
I believe that He purchased me (from the slavery of death) as well as justified me (before God) with His blood.


Those are some but not all of the basic questions I would ask you to see if you are in the truth or a liar. I focus my attention on you Queenannie38 because you claim to love God and be a follower of Him but your words say otherwise.
How so, James? Because my words contradict yours?


If you continue to teach as you do and die in that state this is what Jesus Christ will say to you when you stand in front of Him.
Matthew 7:21-23

Yeah, yeah, whatever—if it makes you feel better to believe that, then be my guest.


I do not want you to end that way! I rebuke your lies but I pray for your deliverance.
You’re a little too late on those good intentions, James—don’t waste your precious worry and prayers on me.

I do not want you, Queenannie38, to be a sinner in the hands of an angry God!
Why not? Wouldn’t that, then, justify your own actions toward me and what I say?


I want you to be free in Jesus Christ and teach right teachings.
I am free, James—you have not the slightest clue how free I am.



So again I say, “Because I tell you the truth, you hate me”?
And again I say—your opinion is not qualified as ‘truth.’ And who said I ‘hated’ you? I don’t hate anyone, especially someone who would love it if I did.


Maybe part of the problem is that you are not here in my presence where we could speak face to face. If you were, you would not see before you a man frothing at the mouth and screaming at the top of his lungs. I would speak to you in the same manner as I do on these forums but you would see that I do it in a calm voice and with a heart filled with compassion. This type of love is difficult to express in written type.
No, it’s not, and there is no ‘problem’—except in your own mind.


It was said of Paul that he wrote harsh letters and came off sounding like a strict man in his writing.
I can’t see how. That’s not what I get when I read his epistles.


They expected to see a man who was bold in their presence but Paul himself was a humble man. His teachings were firm and without flexibility but he himself understood that he was only saved by the unmerited grace of God.
EXACTLY. Paul was truly humble. How could he not be—when faced with the fact that he had been one of the ones that served God in the manner predicted in John 16:2? Humility is something you are sorely lacking in, Machine—if you are intimating that you are in some fashion after the same manner as Paul—forget it. You’re not—at all.


2 Timothy 3-5
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


Your teachings have a form of godliness but do in fact deny the power (Jesus Christ) thereof.
Why? Because I say that God can and will do what He has promised? That He has the wherewithal to bring every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that He is the Almighty—just as He has said He would? He’s got more than enough ‘power’ to do all that, and more. If He desires to save the world, then He will do just that. How is that denying His power? You're really getting carried away.


Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


We are not to speak out against or with fallen angelic beings when in their presence. We instead rebuke them in Jesus name.

Before: Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
And after: But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

This is a hint for a ‘self-check’—are you so convinced you don’t need any type of instruction that you can’t even recognize such when you read it? And apply it accordingly? Are these things for everyone except 'christians?'


By keeping our focus on Jesus Christ we stand in the presence of demons in His power and not on our own. Fallen angels are powerful entities and not to be trifled with outside of God’s power.
Especially if you can’t even tell who’s who in that regard. Put a suit on the devil and stand him behind a pulpit and he's a saint in your eyes.



The accuser is Satan and the accused are those who have accepted Jesus Christ and been washed in the blood of the lamb (the blood of Jesus Christ). I can only imagine what strange interpretation you bring to this easy to understand scripture.
Same one as you, James—it’s pretty obvious what it says.
The real riddle is—how is it applicable to the present situation?


Your quote of 1 Peter 3:16 only protects you if you are speaking in truth concerning the things of God.

Protection? From what? What Peter seems to be emphasizing is the importance of a ‘clean conscience’ (1Peter 3:21) and ‘good conversation.’ What you perceive as ‘lies’ is ‘good conversation,’ according to what the Apostles say about such things.


I have not falsely accused you. The words you type will be a witness against you. You are not a Christian and yet you run to God’s Word for protection.
Since when is the bible only for ‘christians?’


You’re heading in the wrong direction Queenannie38 your current master is Satan.
Again: Yeah, yeah, whatever floats your boat.


My accusation against you is this. You deny the LORD Jesus Christ and twist His Word to support your false teachings. I’m ready to stand before God with this accusation and let Him judge us both are you?
If you really think that’s the thing to do, then who am I to prevent you? I think it’s only fair that your provide some ‘proof,' to me, of your accusation of denying my LORD—cut and paste, please. Post-haste. Or I'm phoning an attorney.



If two people say things that are diametrically opposed to each other how can they both be right?
Who says either one of us has to be ‘right.’ Maybe we are both just as ‘wrong’ as the other one?


One of us is wrong or we are both wrong but we cannot both be right.
Or we could both be wrong.



I’m willing to bet my eternal soul on Jesus Christ and His shed blood what will you wage against me?
Nothing, James.

Pick up your gauntlet, I refuse to rise to your provocation.


You say that calling someone a liar over spiritual matters is ill-advised based on the principles set forth in the Sermon on the Mount? You’re kidding right?
Not at all. Read it yourself.


God commands us to confront false teachers and to plainly speak the truth.
Where? And if so—what qualifies you as a righteous judge? You don't know your right hand from your left--and are oblivious to the situation.

Jesus Christ Himself tore into the false teachers of His time.
He was qualified—He judged ‘righteous’ judgment. We are not. Both you and I were told to ‘judge not lest ye be judged.’


Let me share with you some things that Jesus Christ Himself said to people during His time on earth.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Christ didn’t say that, John the Baptist did. I thought you said you knew the bible?


At one point Jesus throws down with several lying false teachers. They called Him a bastard and He replied that they were the children of Satan! Now I call this speaking directly with someone in truth!
He also said ‘whomever is without sin, cast the first stone,’ and ‘why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?’ Of course, I am forgetting the obvious—He would never say those things to you, now would he?


I will not take back my accusations against you because I’m right to call you a liar and an antichrist. You stand against God and His Word so I must stand against you.
Now I’m an ‘antichrist’ as well as a ‘liar?’ I don’t stand against anything—you are the one with the chip on your shoulder and a tongue you can not control. All I ask is that you stop slandering me according to what you perceive to be reality, for your own sake (or perhaps in interest of your credibility as far as the lost you were charged with saving from hell).


Having said this about you I imagine that you think I hate you?
You really ought to keep a tighter reign on your imagination—and your ego. Hate seems to be a big part of your thought processes, but I don’t even use that word, must less worry about it coming my way.


I love you deeply and pray that God will open your eyes and bring you into a right relationship with Him.
You mean, one similar to yours? Founded on your fervent desire to escape hell rather than to seek His righteousness? That’s not serving God—that’s serving your own issue with mortal fear. No, thanks, I'm confident my relationship with my LORD has no need of what you might consider 'improvements.'


It’s strange is it not, that I can believe with all my heart that you are a false teacher but still pray for you and desire God to change your heart?
Is it strange, then, that I can’t see fit to yoke myself with such double-minded blindness, in the name of ‘christianity?’

That is the Christian way.
No doubt.



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 09:39 AM
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Excellent post queenannie


Incidently, isn't this the debate that Calvinists/Puritans/Presbyterians have been having with other (more moderate) branches of the Protestant church ever since the Reformation?



posted on Oct, 24 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
You are the one who is reading a post dealing with God, I didn't make you come in here and read this.


No, I replied to this thread specifically to bash on the original poster, someone who I feel is a zealot. Just as you feel that a christian should "keep working at it", I feel that some things, such as the religiously arrogant and their self-rightous hypocracy (self-realized or not) should be vocally opposed, just on general principles, especially when I think their motives are not positive.

And as for the "keep working on the unbelievers" part, of your christian ethos, with that statement you step onto the very same slippery slope trod by those who conducted all the PEDs (Previous Evil Deeds) that can be laid at the door of religion. Once you decide that you have the right or the wisdom to tell someone else how to conduct their own relationship with the universe, you are already sliding down that slope, little by little.



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