Why sinners hate God.

Originally posted by Machine

Originally posted by Riley
You have put me and others down, questioned our integrity [based on our creed] and told us we are sinful without having the slightest clue who we are personally..

Originally posted by Riley
yet now you are claiming victim? It's call claiming false witness. I think you owe us all public apologies and should repent ASAP.. otherwise

If I was to say something that wasn’t factually true about myself or another person then that would fall under the category of bearing false witness. When have I committed this sin on these forums? Please cut and paste that portion of anything I’ve typed on these forums to prove your point that I have committed the sin of bearing false witness.

Machine~
I couldn't avoid pointing out to you that maybe your memory is perhaps not so good, or maybe something else is causing forgetfulness, regarding your defense against the valid points Riley has respectfully brought up considering the impression you make upon others with your preferred methods of evangelism. No one hates you or resists you because of God--it is truly your manner in communicating, and if you do sincerely desire to do the best you can toward God, then you will be willing to consider what we have both said. Neither one of us has been hateful or agressive in what we've said--that, in itself, ought to give you a little clue about the motivation behind the criticism (constructive if you allow it to be.)

Originally posted by Machine

Queenannie38,
In 3 of the gospels it is written that Jesus said that we should take care not to be deceived because many would come in His name, saying He was the Christ and would deceive many.

Most interpret it to say that many would come claiming to be the Christ. That's wrong--it was a direct warning against just believing that all who claimed His name, just because they claimed His name.

I marvel at the lengths to which you will go to strangle your own private interpretation out of simple scripture. Your view on this scripture is clearly wrong and if believed leaves a seeker of Jesus Christ open to the worst kind of vulnerability.

You, Queenannie38 are one of the types of people that Jesus Christ warned us about. You take the clear and simple gospel and pervert it into a lie. Let’s take a look at your false interpretation of the scripture you quoted above.

You and those who hold to new age teachings do not like this scripture because it warns people to watch out for the coming false antichrist and other heretical teachers.

Originally posted by Machine
Queenannie38, I think I understand what it is you’re trying to pull out of this scripture.

You keep teaching your lies and giving false hope to the damned and I’ll keep warning anyone who will listen about the real danger they are in if they accept your teaching.

In Christ,

James

IMO, To say someone is 'lying'--because what they understand the bible to say differs from what you understand it to say--is:

1. ridiculous: 'lying' doesn't apply to things not absolutely proven and/or known
   
2. definitely not fruit of the spirit
   
3. counter-productive to the accuser's own goals of demonstrating himself to be 'true' as opposed to 'liars.'

By now, I've seen it happen enough (sad to say) that it no longer shocks me--but the first time I witnessed such an accusation, I was totally taken aback! How could anyone think this is a logical accusation, in the first place; aside from the fact that is rude and insolent behavior that is socially unacceptable among rational adults in all other arenas of discussion.

It seems it takes religion to reveal our 'Satan' sides
--and that is not an unfair thing to say--because to call someone a liar without substantiated evidence to support--renders it nothing other than an 'accusation.' If you are truly familiar with the scripture as you say, James, then the word 'accuse' ought to set off the bells and whistles in your head:

• 2Timothy 3:1-5 (fruits not of the Spirit of God)
  
• Jude 1:9 (even the highest ranking angel refrained from accusing the accuser)
  
• Revelation 12:10 (who's who as far as accuser/accused)
  

Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Peter 3:16

My conscience is clear, and that's all that I need for peace of mind. The accusations you have made toward me on this board are negligible, really, in relation to the whole picture of my own personal experiences--most of the time that stuff makes me chuckle, anymore. And I know you truly believe you are doing good.

So--I didn't say this to obtain an apology--that's really neither here nor there for me; since it's not a case of hurt feelings (something impossible for you to accomplish) or of wanting to be 'right' at the cost of another being 'wrong.'

I do, however, feel sure calling another person a liar over spiritual matters is ill-advised according to the principles set forth in the Sermon on the Mount. Whether you want to classify it as a 'sin' or not is entirely up to you---that's well out of my own jurisdiction. As far as what is my own responsibility--that is what compelled me to make this post.


[edit on 10/22/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
First mistake of christianity is the fact that it is based on something so negative as a crusifiction. It has had negative vibes from the start. Everytime I tried to understand it it made me feel terrible inside. Like I was doing something unatural. It has been a horrible exprience for mankind this negative religion. Millions upon millions have been killed tortured and burned for it. Alas though it is finally showing signs of dying.

I, too, struggled and suffered with thoughts of such a thing. This was resolved for me, however, without any effort through my own mental mechanics required. It basically took a sort of 'dying' within myself to see the truth of life and death--and at the moment I truly began to be alive, for the first time since the day I was born. And I've lived every moment since then.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
The story of the crucifixion, has within it the deepest truth. When one does not resist, but accepts deep suffering, one is free.

We are never truly in this moment. We are usually in a false mind-made created future, or lingering in the past. The ego has a deep sense of insufficiency, and it desperately needs the future in order to have an identity. Accept this moment, the ego dies, and you are free.

Profound thoughts, AW--although beyond the usual ideas we think of (thoughts created by our emotions, that is) when the topic of death (of any cause or sort) comes up.

Death and the fear associated with not knowing/understanding what its true nature and purpose is--and its inexplicable partnership with 'life'--is the only prison man doesn't create, nor does any man have the wherewithal to free himself or others from its bonds, unless he opens up to spiritual freedom outside of the imagined boundaries of 'self'.

'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'

It's actually a war with many battles. Each has to make a choice. Which side are you on , God's or satan's

*Puts up hand*

Can I be Switzerland, please?

Originally posted by kedfr

It's actually a war with many battles. Each has to make a choice. Which side are you on , God's or satan's

*Puts up hand*

Can I be Switzerland, please?

No, there is no middle ground. If you aren't on God's side you are on satan's. I'm afraid that's what alot of people think they can sit on the fence.

No, there is no middle ground. If you aren't on God's side you are on satan's. I'm afraid that's what alot of people think they can sit on the fence.

I'm not sitting on any fence. Switzerland does very nicely for itself by being neutral.

In any case, different people/religions have wildly different opinions as to what 'God's side' is, and what 'satan's side' is. It is human nature to think in absolutes, usually to condemn those who do not follow your line of thinking. This has been the path to war & persecution throughout our history...

Originally posted by dbrandt
No, there is no middle ground. If you aren't on God's side you are on satan's. I'm afraid that's what alot of people think they can sit on the fence.

To sit on the fence would require that you believe there is a fence to sit on, which necessarily implies you've already accepted the concept of a spiritual struggle between god and satan. I seriously doubt there are a lot of people who think they can sit on the fence.

There are a lot of people who think you must choose between god or satan, and the rest don't believe these silly myths.

By the way, if your not for Enki, your for Enlil. You can not be neutral.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Both you and Machine assert more than you can possibly know.

With this statement, you've joined the ring of those who assert what they can't possibly know. How do you know that neither machine nor I can know what we assert?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Do two rights make a wrong, though?

Originally posted by kedfr

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Do two rights make a wrong, though?

When they are 1. God exists, 2. God doesn't exist; yes.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Two wrongs don't make a right.

The difference between machine and I is that I consider (almost?) all knowledge to be possibly in error. I make no absolute claims even if I don't always use such language. It is common practice to regard assertions as possibly in error and so I see no need to constantly hedge every comment I make.

Even if I were to assert "god doesnot exist", that is not a claim of apodictic knowledge, it's a judgement based on the evidence.

If you want to understand what Revelation is talking about, does it make more sense to read today's New York Times, or does it make sense to take a look at the historical context of the book?

Originally posted by kedfr

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Do two rights make a wrong, though?

The only thing we can be absolutely sure of is that 'three rights do make a left.'

I have proven this for myself--try it in your car--it works.

Other than that, the word 'right' as opposed to 'wrong' is a label, a judgment call that can only be offered from a limited perspective, in even the broadest sense.

We can turn 'right' and we can most certainly 'err'; but to be right or wrong? It's meaningless, when you think about it.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Other than that, the word 'right' as opposed to 'wrong' is a label, a judgment call that can only be offered from a limited perspective, in even the broadest sense.

We can turn 'right' and we can most certainly 'err'; but to be right or wrong? It's meaningless, when you think about it.

You have to be kidding. With that kind of logic then if someone kills someone else who are we to arrest them and put them on trial for murder. After all they probably had a reason for killing them, one that makes sense to them. And who's to say killing is wrong, after all maybe there is no wrong. Wow!

Queenannie38,
Machine I couldn't avoid pointing out to you that maybe your memory is perhaps not so good, or maybe something else is causing forgetfulness, regarding your defense against the valid points Riley has respectfully brought up considering the impression you make upon others with your preferred methods of evangelism. No one hates you or resists you because of God--it is truly your manner in communicating, and if you do sincerely desire to do the best you can toward God, then you will be willing to consider what we have both said. Neither one of us has been hateful or agressive in what we've said--that, in itself, ought to give you a little clue about the motivation behind the criticism (constructive if you allow it to be.)

I have simply told you and the other members of this board the truth. That I’m absolute in my understanding of this truth comes from many years of study and a deep understanding of God and a total belief in His Word. My manner of communication is simple and straightforward I do not like it when someone beats around the bush with me. I prefer to speak directly to people in a clear and easy to understand way. There’s nothing new in my form of communicating God’s Word. Many men of God have spoken directly and clearly concerning the basic doctrines of Christian belief.

If you think I speak in an aggressive manner concerning Christianity you should see a real preacher in action! A great man of God like, Jonathan Edwards, who wrote the sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”?

www.jonathanedwards.com...

Queenannie38,
IMO, To say someone is 'lying'--because what they understand the bible to say differs from what you understand it to say--is:

1. ridiculous: 'lying' doesn't apply to things not absolutely proven and/or known
2. definitely not fruit of the spirit
3. counter-productive to the accuser's own goals of demonstrating himself to be 'true' as opposed to 'liars.'

The reason why I call you a liar Queenannie38 is because you have shown yourself to be a liar. You are not only a liar but you are a liar of the worst kind. You twist Holy Scripture and pervert its simple truth to support your damnable teachings. It doesn’t matter if you are aware of this truth or not. Your ignorance will not protect you when you stand before God at The Great White Throne Judgment. You will give account of yourself before God and if you do not repent of your false teachings and accept Jesus Christ as your LORD and saviour prior to your death you will be thrown into The Lake of Fire and suffer eternally.

You say that I have no proof that you are a liar but the Holy Scripture backs me up on this judgment of your false teachings.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was and is God in the flesh? Do you accept Him as LORD and saviour over your life? Do you believe that He died for your sins and rose again on the third day? Do you believe that there is no other way that a person can be made right before God save the shed blood of Jesus Christ?

Those are some but not all of the basic questions I would ask you to see if you are in the truth or a liar. I focus my attention on you Queenannie38 because you claim to love God and be a follower of Him but your words say otherwise. If you continue to teach as you do and die in that state this is what Jesus Christ will say to you when you stand in front of Him.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I do not want you to end that way! I rebuke your lies but I pray for your deliverance. I do not want you, Queenannie38, to be a sinner in the hands of an angry God! I want you to be free in Jesus Christ and teach right teachings. So again I say, “Because I tell you the truth, you hate me”?

Maybe part of the problem is that you are not here in my presence where we could speak face to face. If you were, you would not see before you a man frothing at the mouth and screaming at the top of his lungs. I would speak to you in the same manner as I do on these forums but you would see that I do it in a calm voice and with a heart filled with compassion. This type of love is difficult to express in written type.

It was said of Paul that he wrote harsh letters and came off sounding like a strict man in his writing. People marveled that he seemed so much different in person because he was meek and caring of those around him. They expected to see a man who was bold in their presence but Paul himself was a humble man. His teachings were firm and without flexibility but he himself understood that he was only saved by the unmerited grace of God.

Queenannie38, It seems it takes religion to reveal our 'Satan' sides --and that is not an unfair thing to say--because to call someone a liar without substantiated evidence to support--renders it nothing other than an 'accusation.' If you are truly familiar with the scripture as you say, James, then the word 'accuse' ought to set off the bells and whistles in your head:

 2Timothy 3:1-5 (fruits not of the Spirit of God)
 Jude 1:9 (even the highest ranking angel refrained from accusing the accuser)
 Revelation 12:10 (who's who as far as accuser/accused)

2 Timothy 3-5
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Your teachings have a form of godliness but do in fact deny the power (Jesus Christ) thereof.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

We are not to speak out against or with fallen angelic beings when in their presence. We instead rebuke them in Jesus name. By keeping our focus on Jesus Christ we stand in the presence of demons in His power and not on our own. Fallen angels are powerful entities and not to be trifled with outside of God’s power.

Revelation 12:9-12
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The accuser is Satan and the accused are those who have accepted Jesus Christ and been washed in the blood of the lamb (the blood of Jesus Christ). I can only imagine what strange interpretation you bring to this easy to understand scripture.

Queenannie38, Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Peter 3:16

My conscience is clear, and that's all that I need for peace of mind. The accusations you have made toward me on this board are negligible, really, in relation to the whole picture of my own personal experiences--most of the time that stuff makes me chuckle, anymore. And I know you truly believe you are doing good.

Your quote of 1 Peter 3:16 only protects you if you are speaking in truth concerning the things of God. I have not falsely accused you. The words you type will be a witness against you. You are not a Christian and yet you run to God’s Word for protection. You’re heading in the wrong direction Queenannie38 your current master is Satan.

My accusation against you is this. You deny the LORD Jesus Christ and twist His Word to support your false teachings. I’m ready to stand before God with this accusation and let Him judge us both are you?

Queenannie38, So--I didn't say this to obtain an apology--that's really neither here nor there for me; since it's not a case of hurt feelings (something impossible for you to accomplish) or of wanting to be 'right' at the cost of another being 'wrong.'

If two people say things that are diametrically opposed to each other how can they both be right? One of us is wrong or we are both wrong but we cannot both be right. I’m willing to bet my eternal soul on Jesus Christ and His shed blood what will you wage against me?

Queenannie38,
I do, however, feel sure calling another person a liar over spiritual matters is ill-advised according to the principles set forth in the Sermon on the Mount. Whether you want to classify it as a 'sin' or not is entirely up to you---that's well out of my own jurisdiction. As far as what is my own responsibility--that is what compelled me to make this post.

Once again you have made a wrong judgment concerning scripture. Queenannie38, when you have walked away from the truth the only thing left to believe in is a lie. There are countless lies out there waiting to entangle everyone but only one truth that saves and His name is Jesus Christ, King of Kings and LORD of LORDS!

You say that calling someone a liar over spiritual matters is ill-advised based on the principles set forth in the Sermon on the Mount? You’re kidding right? God commands us to confront false teachers and to plainly speak the truth. Jesus Christ Himself tore into the false teachers of His time. Let me share with you some things that Jesus Christ Himself said to people during His time on earth.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matthew 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 23:33
[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Acts 13:6- (Paul speaks)
And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name [was] Barjesus: Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

At one point Jesus throws down with several lying false teachers. They called Him a bastard and He replied that they were the children of Satan! Now I call this speaking directly with someone in truth!

I will not take back my accusations against you because I’m right to call you a liar and an antichrist. You stand against God and His Word so I must stand against you. I wish it wasn’t so but it has to be this way for now. Having said this about you I imagine that you think I hate you? Nothing could be further from the truth. I love you deeply and pray that God will open your eyes and bring you into a right relationship with Him.

It’s strange is it not, that I can believe with all my heart that you are a false teacher but still pray for you and desire God to change your heart? That is the Christian way.


A True Christian
In These Last Days,

James

Originally posted by dbrandt
You have to be kidding. With that kind of logic then if someone kills someone else who are we to arrest them and put them on trial for murder. After all they probably had a reason for killing them, one that makes sense to them. And who's to say killing is wrong, after all maybe there is no wrong. Wow!

Societies and religion have to work in terms of absolutes, as regards to law - ie. you are guilty of committing a crime or not guilty. However, secular law is infinitely more complicated than you are portraying. For instance, there are different degrees of murder, there is manslaghter, there is killing another person as an act of defence etc. It is the interpretation of the jury/judge as to the defendant's innocence (or degree of innocence/guilt). True, the law may have to be written in stone, but its interpretation is quite fluid depending on the situation.

Christianity has core values of absolute rights and absolute wrongs. For instance the seven virtues/deadly sins are a pretty good guide on how to live your life but they don't really explain positions on homosexuality, abortion, contraception etc etc. Sure, one can quote scripture where these concepts are perceived as 'wrong' by the Bible, but then again there are plenty of places in the bible where it is denounced as sinful to eat certain hoofed animals.

Absolutes of right and wrong are not a fruitful means of living ones life. There is a massive difference between law to control society and rules to govern one's own morality. Sometimes they cross over but most of the time they can exist quite independently of the other.

Okay no doubt I will get shouted down here for daring to utter something like the 7 deadly sins/virtures (were defined by Pope Gregory around 600 and are not strictly speaking biblical - though scripture validates these concepts, they are not presented in a nicely formatted bullet-pointed list) but significantly these sins are subjective not absolute. There are degrees of lust/wrath/kindness etc that only you really know whether you could do more to improve yourself.

Personally, I think you have to go with what you think is right in your own heart. Me? I think two sins that don't get much treatment in the bible are intolerance and ignorance - two concepts that many people (christians and non-christians). While I am always impressed with Christians who struggle with their faith and write in a scholarly and thoughtful manner, the hell-fire and damnation approach has never done much for me. One should always question one's beliefs, not just recite it without thinking.

Rights and wrongs are subjective. I'm sorry but you'll have to do an awful lot of convincing to make me believe otherwise.

Originally posted by kedfr
Rights and wrongs are subjective. I'm sorry but you'll have to do an awful lot of convincing to make me believe otherwise.

I agree that's what people think. Everyone does what is right in their own eyes.

That's not what God says, there are absolute rights and wrongs. Mankind is tainted with sin and we need Jesus to get us back on track.
He changes the way we view right and wrong and changes us from the inside out so that we can KNOW right and wrong.

Look around at the world and pay attention to the thin gs that are being done then with the acceptance of Christ you will be convinced otherwise.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I agree that's what people think. Everyone does what is right in their own eyes.

That's not what God says, there are absolute rights and wrongs. Mankind is tainted with sin and we need Jesus to get us back on track.

He changes the way we view right and wrong and changes us from the inside out so that we can KNOW right and wrong.

Look around at the world and pay attention to the things that are being done then with the acceptance of Christ you will be convinced otherwise.

What one Christian thinks is right/wrong is often different to another Christian, let alone between different religions. There are some sins that are beyond debate (murder for instance) but others are more questionable. You may 'accept' Christ into your life & heart but your morality will still be subjective. Even if the Christian God exists, his view of absolute right and wrong is almost certainly different to ours. We are by nature sinners because it is all a matter of interpretation of what these rights/wrongs are. Indeed, one could follow the strict words of the bible, believing that they live their life in a christian manner and yet be intolerant, cruel and proud.

Sin is all a matter of translation.

Do we go heaven because of our good deeds or are our good deeds reflective of the fact that we are 'chosen'? Moreover, can only a limited number of truly good people go to heaven, while the rest go to hell? Moreover, does one atone for sin, simply through prayer or through confession? Can one ever truly atone for ones sins?

I follow my own spirtuality and my own morality and think intolerance and ignorance are far greater sins than many of those frequently banded around (ie. re-martial sex/abortion/homosexuality). One thing christians have got partly right is the importance of lying - both to oneself and to others. Once the 'sin' has been confessed (to either God/a pries) then you can be set free. If you keep it locked in, then you do nothing but compound your guilt.

If I go up to the Pearly Gates and St Peter calls me a sinner because I do not think homosexuality is evil then so be it. I will argue with him until the cows come home but I will not have lived my life following ideas that run contrary to my own sense of morality. To do otherwise would be a sin in itself. Even if the absolute morality of God is different to my own sense of right & wrong, I will still believe I lived my life in the way I thought correct.

Originally posted by Machine
You only see the Old Testament as a text filed with violence, genocide and mass rape?

Yes.. oh and slavery, female oppression and scientific ignorance.

You say you were taught the Bible in Christian schools but I say you were not well instructed.

More judgements! Yay! At least I understood the basics like love thy neighbour, judge not lest etc etc. Clearly you can't even understand that part.. or more to the point.. you ignore it completly. Keep picking and choosing.

I also agree that for the most part He gave His truth in love and compassion.

But you prefer to opt for the addled condemnation and hatred angle. Remember.. sadism in moderation! Thats where most cults go wrong when trying to become legit.

Is it not an act of love and compassion to tell someone who is in danger of Hell that he is in danger?

No it is not.. if hell even existed.. who are you to assume to 'know' where we are going?

In all my work on this forum I’ve only tried to warn you of the damnation to come if you do not repent and follow Jesus Christ alone. For this you hate me?

No. I haven't seen you doing any work.. just trolling. I don't hate you either.. but clearly you hate us just for our creed which irritates me.. just look at the title of your post for a start. You LOVE to hate.. why should you not want to be hated? That is what you are trying to spread after all.

As far as the peaceful teachings of Jesus Christ go those teachings are for saved Christians.

Yep. That explains the crusades.

I love how you leave an 'out' for yourself from acting like a civilised and respectful human being. Your rhetoric is akin to telling a witch you are only burning her alive to save her soul or only blowing up a cafe to give unbelievers honourable deaths. I NEVER want to be like you.. your mode of thinking is what is wrong with the state of humanity.

[edit on 23-10-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by kedfr

Even if the Christian God exists, his view of absolute right and wrong is almost certainly different to ours. We are by nature sinners because it is all a matter of interpretation of what these rights/wrongs are. Indeed, one could follow the strict words of the bible, believing that they live their life in a christian manner and yet be intolerant, cruel and proud.

Do we go heaven because of our good deeds or are our good deeds reflective of the fact that we are 'chosen'? Moreover, can only a limited number of truly good people go to heaven, while the rest go to hell? Moreover, does one atone for sin, simply through prayer or through confession? Can one ever truly atone for ones sins?

If I go up to the Pearly Gates and St Peter calls me a sinner because I do not think homosexuality is evil then so be it. I will argue with him until the cows come home but I will not have lived my life following ideas that run contrary to my own sense of morality. To do otherwise would be a sin in itself. Even if the absolute morality of God is different to my own sense of right & wrong, I will still believe I lived my life in the way I thought correct.

Certainly God's view of right and wrong is different than ours, that is what we are talking about. God knows right and wrong, we don't. We have to learn it. When someone accepts Christ, God Himself takes up residence in us to teach us what is right and wrong. If you are waiting to find a perfect christian, that won't happen until Christ returns. It's then that we will be changed and cannot sin.

A person will spend eternity with God in heaven and the universe and on earth because their sins have been atoned for by Christ and they have placed their faith in that alone. God tells us in the Bible that He wants none to perish, so there is not a set limit to those who can be saved. There is going to be a set number of saved and then the rapture will occur, but there will still be people saved after that also. Christ death and resurrection atones for our sin, we do nothing to atone for them. They are then removed after that we seek to listen to God and He changes how we view right and wrong. When we sin after this ,yes we confess and are forgiven. We confess to acknowledge that we understand it was a sin.

You won't stand before Peter in Heaven, you will stand before Jesus Christ(God Himself). As far as arguing with God , it won't happen. The Bible tells us every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord. That means the saved who have acknowledged Christ will do so because they have understood who God is.

The unsaved will also proclaim Him as Lord but the will do so before entering hell. This means someone has rejected Christ their whole life and now dies and stands before Him. There will be no arguing because you will be standing in front of the most powerful, omniscient being there ever has been or will be. When He looks at you and you look at Him there will be no arguing, because you will be standing before the one who knows it all. You will know that you have not had your sins removed and you will know that He knows this. You will be without excuse and you will understand that you made a choice and you chose wrong. You will at that moment understand that all those things you heard christians say about the need to accept Christ were right, and all those times you you refused you did of your own free will. You will now know the truth but you will also remember that you chose to reject it. A person's spirit is set at death there is no changing after that. You will know that God is God and that you rejected Him.

No one will be arguing with God when they stand before Him. That is a fallcy that holds no weight.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Machine
You only see the Old Testament as a text filed with violence, genocide and mass rape?

Yes.. oh and slavery, female oppression and scientific ignorance.

How many times do I have to say this. Everything that is written in the Bible isn't written because it was done in perfection. God has recorded in it the sins people have done so that we can see the consequences of sin. He has it recorded there so that we can see that human nature has always been the same. He has recorded it there so that we can see that when we sin we can be forgiven. He has recorded it there to show us right and wrong.

dbrandt, I don't really want to get into a debate into the ins and outs of christian faith. You are perfectly entitled to your own opinions. You can say to me all you want that God is absolute and I will be going to hell etc etc. but it is only an opinion, no matter what you say. My belief is something quite different.

I was only saying that I am not going to change my idea of sinful behaviour even if I were to be a Christian again (and yes, I was a fully served up member of the CoE once upon a time), no matter what you or anyone else says is 'absolute truth'. Surely by saying that you have Christ in your heart then you have a direct phone line to God - whatever you says must be true because God is unquestioningly true. It is a tautology out of the same page as the Divine Right of Kings. And it's rubbish. Absolute morality does not exist. Not even for God (even if God exists). Absolutes are creations by those wanting to establish modes of social behaviour. It is far easier to say 'all of these people are evil' than it is to question their view. Absolutes are also the road to war, intolerance, hatred, prejudice etc etc etc. Painting the world into the black & white of Good and Evil does no-one any good.

Do I believe in God? I'm not sure, I'm still working my way through that one. I'm certainly not going to believe the Bible hook line and sinker and I very much doubt that I'll ever be a Christian again. Despite the good elements in the bible & in the religion itself, an awful lot of Christianity is social control of the masses - sure if the poor are good little boys & girls and don't go breaking rules then you'll go to heaven in the afterlife.

As for the arguing with Peter/God - I will not be ashamed of how I have lived my life in the afterlife (if one exists). I am not going to beg forgiveness for sins I did not believe I committed during my life.

[edit on 23-10-2005 by kedfr]