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NEWS: World Leaders Demand End To U.S Blockade Of Cuba

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posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by namehere
i'll take self determanism and earning my way through life over having what i earn stolen like a slave and being forced to live like everyone else.

I was talking about self-determination for the Cubans. The United States has not accepted the communist government of Cuba. That is not the call of the United States to make.


Originally posted by namehere
iraq isnt 200 miles away, nor is iran and south vietnam was trying to remain free and needed help, they invited us to help, simple as that.

So? The point was that you were telling me to mind my own business because im not Cuban or American. I showed that America doesnt wait for an invitation to comment or involve itself with other nations or conflicts. As such I dont need an invitation, or have to be born into, these countries.


Originally posted by namehere
opinion isnt my point here, i meant foreign nations need to let it go and consider our reasoning before demanding things like this, its a personal issue to many here, not something to just suddenly forgive because a demand, im sure turkey and russia feel this same thing for our missiles being there

The missiles in Turkey were removed 40 years ago, do you really think that even factors into the day to day thinking of the Turks? Im not discounting its a personal issue that the United States has with Cuba. My point (!) is that when the United States comes up with its rationale for keeping the embargo they do not tell the real reasons. Its not because they are communist and its not because Castro is a dictator.


Originally posted by namehere
i say "we" because the thing with cuba is mostly beyond just our government, ex cubans and their lobby groups are the ones wanting this and pushing for it and many support it.

our government only support pakistan because they dont want an aggessive government against us/them who has nuclear weapons.

Correct, now we're getting to the nitty gritty of American foreign policy. Can we dispense with the freedom crap and all the other lofty ideals the United States says its pursuing. There is only one objective of American foreign policy, like all other foreign policys, and that is to promote American interests. I dont have a problem with that per se, its the 'holier than thou' and righteousness that the American government masks their foreign policy in that really annoys me.


Originally posted by namehere
hypocracy but then again cuba is personal to many here

That doesnt change things. If some one has a beef with Cuba then they arent objective any way. There is no supression of ideas here so why should my opinion be discredited because there are people here with "personal" beefs against the Cuban regime?


Originally posted by namehere
i dont agree with what we did in many countries back then, and our supporting dictators and abuse of economic position has ruined the image of capitalism, we are at a point i know our nation was built to prevent and i'll admit but still, taking what one earned is also what our country was built to prevent, if communists gave just compensation and protected the individual i wouldnt be so against them as i am.

You think capitalism is fair? Your criticisms of communism can be found in capitalism, except the instigators of all the inequity under capitalism are the ultra-rich. Communism (in theory) would redistribute that wealth to everyone. Capitalism favours the rich.


Originally posted by namehere
china is in a position that requires we trade or fall behind if we dont, plus they are a mix of communism/capitalist if you look how business is treated in china.

Again, thats an honest reason for trading for China. So why is your government incapable of being as honest as you are here? They continue to say that Communism is evil and should be stopped at all costs. They even produce an annual report on China's mulitude of human rights abuses but inspite of all that the United States places economics above everything else. That is the reality of United States foreign policy, they do what favours American interests, there is no altruism or charity. There is also no lofty reason to continue the embargo on Cuba. They are not doing it to help the Cuban people shake a dictatorship either.


Originally posted by namehere
deep seeded issues, entertwined history, high numbers of ex-cubans weilding influence, a feeling of betrayal and bitterness over almost causing ww3, its not our government, its a personal issue that goes back to the 19th century and built after the missile crisis and we just want a free friendly cuba(because its so close).

Again, I have no problems with that (except trying to pin almost starting WW3 on the Cubans) its the lies when they say its because Cuba is a dictatorship that they continue the embargo.


Originally posted by Muaddib
I guess the will of the world doesn't mind the communist regime of castro udermining, or trying to undermine in every aspect, the US every time castro gets a chance ...

Yes they do, they also dont like the United States undermining other countries either. The United States is undermining Cuba (amongst others) in every aspect. Do you think the United States is justified in undermining Cuba?


Originally posted by Muaddib
I guess you don't remember the last time that Uzbekistan was on the news and I posted quotes from a newspaper from that country stating that the government of Uzbekistan did not wish to heed the advice from the US but instead recognizes Russia as it's true ally...and of course you chose not to mention that Pakistan is not trying it's hardest to directly/indirectly, attack the US every time they get a chance....go figure....

Did you not read Congress's Foreign Relations Committee report that I posted about Uzbekistan that was released years before the Andijan massacre? It condemned Uzbekistan for its human rights attrocities, dictatorial government and supression of opposition. This report didnt stop US aid going directly to Karimov's regime and the positioning of a US base in Uzbekistan. So trying to say that now the United States is pressuring Karimov to be more democratic it changes everything is a lie. The United States government was in bed with this dictator knowing full well of the attrocites going on and they made no public objection until after Andijan.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Disgusting indeed when people keep trying to make comments on situations they obviously have no knowledge of.

See you assume that. Do you know what I know? Try not to be presumptuous Muaddib. Your insultive tone does you no favours either and does your credibility harm.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Perhaps you should also realize that quite a few countries in the UN are keeping their heads literally under the dirt and "seem" unaware of the realities of the situation in many countries around the world, more so when it comes to countries like Cuba, and instead paint the real dictators of this world as "saviours and men of peace." i am not claiming everyone the UN nominates does not deserve it, but sometimes I have to wonder in what world do some countries that are part of the Un live in....as well as some people who even thou they have been told, by first hand accounts, the situation in certain countries (such as Cuba) yet decide to use any and every excuse to attack the US instead....

There is justified criticism of the United States as far as the UN is concerned. The UN's resolutions are vetoed when US interests are suborned for the greater good. The amount of resolutions critical of Israel that were shot down by a single US veto are phenomenal.

The problem people have with the United States is that they circumvent the United Nations at every opportunity. The US would prefer it if they were incharge of the entire World and their word was law. Lets face it, which country WOULDNT want that?

Thats where the UN's purpose comes in. Every country has vested interests and agendas when it comes to their foreign policy. Thats why one country dictating what other countries should do doesnt work. The UN maybe slow and inefficient but atleast it kills hegemony and allows all countries to put their input into a problem. That way when an eventual decision is made not one country comes out with everything it wants.

When the United States bypasses the UN it is simply to get everything it wants out of a dispute. This is why people dont like the United States, they are getting everything they want with no regard for any other country.

They also take umbrage when the United States demands that other countries comply with UN resolutions and the US lambasts the UN when countries do not take heed of the UN. But when the UN tells the US that it must do something the US ignores it citing its inviolable sovereignty. Whats the deal? Either the US recognizes the UN's authourity (demanding Iraq/Iran comply) or it doesnt. At the moment the US is using the UN as its proxy in dictating to the World what it should do. This has to stop.

[edit on 19/10/05 by subz]




posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by namehere
really, its not even your business, its between us and cuba, castro turned cuba against us for no reason and tried to assist our enemy, how are we the bad guy? all we did was oppose his actions and his suppressive dictatorship.


Castro was perfectly willing to deal with the US, Eisenhower spurned him. Only then did he turn to communism. Your next response was to attack him and when that failed you planned his assassination.


how was his "war" justified..?


By the actions of Batista and the mob who were running Havana.


we did nothing to cuba to deserve their hostility


Other than supporting a completely corrupt dictator and siding with his mates the mob over their interests in Havana.


they deserve every bit of our hostility after aiding the USSR.


Ahh, standard US policy: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. ergo we support right-wing dicatators such as Pinochet and Lon Nol after they overthrow democratically-elected leaders who are left-wing. Don't like it so much when a small island follows the same policy and turns to your enemy in search of friends.


its simple, communists leave = no more embargo, UN and everyone demanding this be damned, atleast untill theres reason to forgive cuba.


Aahh, but Syria occupying Lebanon is different, of course. That resolution must be obeyed, and didn't we go to Iraq without a new UN Security Council resolution because Saddam was already "in clear breach" of existing UN resolutions?



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 08:39 PM
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Now Subz, you know the U.S. practices the Golden Rule--continuously and consistently--in dealing with all foreign governments. Whoever has the gold makes the rules. So has it always been and probably always will be.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by Astronomer68
Now Subz, you know the U.S. practices the Golden Rule--continuously and consistently--in dealing with all foreign governments. Whoever has the gold makes the rules. So has it always been and probably always will be.

That would be the European Central Banks then. Didnt they buy all the gold held in Fort Knox thanks to Eisenhower confiscating America's gold to get out of the Great Depression.

When was the last annual congress inspection of Fort Knox? I dont think its been inspected in decades.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 12:36 AM
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No Subz, that would be Lyndon Johnson who had it shipped to the Bank of England in 1968 to prevent a run on that bank which had somehow lost all its own gold.

I can't find any evidence of any inspection or audit since the sham inspection in the early 70's that was hushed up immediately afterwards.

This is way off topic, but while I was looking for dates of inspections or audits of the gold deposited at Fort Knox and West Point as well, I came across a letter President Andrew Jackson sent to congress with his veto of a bill to extend the charter of the U.S. Bank--you may find the excerpt I'm enclosing here interesting:

It is to be regretted that the rich and powerful too often bend the acts of government to their selfish purposes. Distinctions in society will always exist under every just government. Equality of talents, of education, or of wealth can not be produced by human institutions. In the full enjoyment of the gifts of Heaven and the fruits of superior industry, economy, and virtue, every man is equally entitled to protection by law; but when the laws undertake to add to these natural and just advantages artificial distinctions, to grant titles, gratuities, and exclusive privileges, to make the rich richer and the potent more powerful, the humble members of society-the farmers, mechanics, and laborers-who have neither the time nor the means of securing like favors to themselves, have a right to complain of the injustice of their Government. There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing. In the act before me there seems to be a wide and unnecessary departure from these just principles.
Nor is our Government to be maintained or our Union preserved by invasions of the rights and powers of the several States. In thus attempting to make our General Government strong we make it weak. Its true strength consists in leaving individuals and States as much as possible to themselves-in making itself felt, not in its power, but in its beneficence; not in its control, but in its protection; not in binding the States more closely to the center, but leaving each to move unobstructed in its proper orbit.
Experience should teach us wisdom. Most of the difficulties our Government now encounters and most of the dangers which impend over our Union have sprung from an abandonment of the legitimate objects of Government by our national legislation, and the adoption of such principles as are embodied in this act. Many of our rich men have not been content with equal protection and equal benefits, but have besought us to make them richer by act of Congress. By attempting to gratify their desires we have in the results of our legislation arrayed section against section, interest against interest, and man against man, in a fearful commotion which threatens to shake the foundations of our Union. It is time to pause in our career to review our principles, and if possible revive that devoted patriotism and spirit of compromise which distinguished the sages of the Revolution and the fathers of our Union. If we can not at once, in justice to interests vested under improvident legislation, make our Government what it ought to be, we can at least take a stand against all new grants of monopolies and exclusive privileges, against any prostitution of our Government to the advancement of the few at the expense of the many, and in favor of compromise and gradual reform in our code of laws and system of political economy.

The full text of the veto can be found at:

www.surfsteve.com...

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Astronomer68]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 09:57 AM
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Sorry Astronomer I messed up there, I don't know where I pulled Eisenhower from
I meant FDR, I guess they are both WW2 personalities...



In April (1933), President Franklin D. Roosevelt placed an embargo on gold shipments. In June, the treasury recalled gold and gold certificates, and Congress ended the payment of debts, both public and private, in gold. At FDR's request, Congress enacted the Gold Reserve Act in January 1934. In nationalizing gold, it ordered Federal Reserve banks to turn in their gold supplies to the Treasury.

Mosler and Fort Knox

FDR made it illegal for Americans to sell their own gold. All the United States gold was locked up in Fort Knox and it was meant to be inspected annually. Its been inspected a few times since the 30's and its rumoured that Fort Knox is practically empty. Its also rumoured that America's gold was sold to the European Central Banks (Bank of England mainly).

Thanks for the quotation though, we live under a corrupt financial system. Fractional reserve banking and privately controlled central banks have hijacked every major country in the World. Funny how all 3 U.S Presidents that have been assassinated (Lincoln, Garfield and Kennedy) all had plans to do away with America's central banks...



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by subz
I was talking about self-determination for the Cubans. The United States has not accepted the communist government of Cuba. That is not the call of the United States to make.


Well, i had written a response with links to this but forgot to copy and paste the whole response before posting and somehow was lost when I pressed the "post reply" button.


Anyways, subz, it is statements like the one above that tell me how much you know about the situation in Cuba and the Communist regime that oppresses the Cuban citizens still living in the island.

The Cuban people do not have any "self-determination" subz.... if they did there wouldn't be millions of Cubans who have left the island and countless other who have died trying to get out of the grasp from the "revolution" and the Communist regime.


Originally posted by subz
........................
Im not discounting its a personal issue that the United States has with Cuba. My point (!) is that when the United States comes up with its rationale for keeping the embargo they do not tell the real reasons. Its not because they are communist and its not because Castro is a dictator.


Really? could you please show us proof that what you state above is the case?


Originally posted by subz
Correct, now we're getting to the nitty gritty of American foreign policy. Can we dispense with the freedom crap and all the other lofty ideals the United States says its pursuing.


That is your opinion subz, and as we all know "opinions alone" are not always right, more so when there is no proof to back your claims.



Originally posted by subz
There is only one objective of American foreign policy, like all other foreign policys, and that is to promote American interests. I dont have a problem with that per se, its the 'holier than thou' and righteousness that the American government masks their foreign policy in that really annoys me.


Does the US look also to it's own interests and tries to promote them?.... Yes, of course it does, as every country does. Does that mean that this is the only reasion for the US policies or that because of this the US has a "holier than thou" attitude?... not in my opinion, but then again we can disagree in opinions just like i think that imo sometimes you show a "holier than you attitude", just like i am certain you sometimes think the same of me.



Originally posted by subz
That doesnt change things. If some one has a beef with Cuba then they arent objective any way. There is no supression of ideas here so why should my opinion be discredited because there are people here with "personal" beefs against the Cuban regime?


First of all, you have a beef with the US, then my guess is that we can conclude that you are not objective in any way when it comes to your claims about the US, or even your own country, more so when you don't present evidence to back your claims.

Second of all, the "beef" that i have is with people like yourself who keep "claiming they know what is happening in Cuba", want to dismiss the first hand experiences told in these forums from people who have seen and experienced the situation in the country, and instead continue trying to blame the US for the problems that the "revolution", the "revolutionaries", and the "communist propaganda/regime" has brought to countries like Cuba.



Originally posted by subz
You think capitalism is fair? Your criticisms of communism can be found in capitalism, except the instigators of all the inequity under capitalism are the ultra-rich. Communism (in theory) would redistribute that wealth to everyone. Capitalism favours the rich.


Subz....the millions of Cubans who have left the communist regime, or have died trying to leave it, did not learn about "communism" from the capitalist point of view, since fidel, his "revolutionaries" and other communists have always blamed every problem the world faces on the US and capitalism and have been the ones that "hide the truth from people" about the differences from communism and capitalism, portraying communism/socialism as the tool taht would save the world and capitalisms the tool that will destroy the world when the facts have proven the contrary.


Originally posted by subz
Again, thats an honest reason for trading for China. So why is your government incapable of being as honest as you are here? They continue to say that Communism is evil and should be stopped at all costs.


Could you show us of a communist regime that has been good to the world and the people?...... and please don't use the "communist propaganda" claiming there has never been any communist regimes.....



Originally posted by subz
They even produce an annual report on China's mulitude of human rights abuses but inspite of all that the United States places economics above everything else.


There are several groups and organizations that have annual reports about China and other countries, many of those groups and organizations don't have anything to do with the US government... so what is exactly your point?...


Originally posted by subz
That is the reality of United States foreign policy, they do what favours American interests, there is no altruism or charity.


The US also does things in altruism and even in charity, not asking for anything i return, or do you have proof that shows the US has never done any altruistic actions or even provided charity to other countries. Proof please....



Originally posted by subz
There is also no lofty reason to continue the embargo on Cuba. They are not doing it to help the Cuban people shake a dictatorship either.


That's your opinion, but then again you have no idea what the communist regime is/has been up to, and you have no experience whatsoever with the regime or it's propaganda.


Originally posted by subz
Again, I have no problems with that (except trying to pin almost starting WW3 on the Cubans) its the lies when they say its because Cuba is a dictatorship that they continue the embargo.


Again, present proof that the US does not sees the communist regime, that is oppressing the people in Cuba and is trying to expand the communist propaganda around the world, as a reason to keep the embargo in Cuba.... proof please.



Originally posted by subz
Yes they do, they also dont like the United States undermining other countries either. The United States is undermining Cuba (amongst others) in every aspect. Do you think the United States is justified in undermining Cuba?


Subz, the Cuban regime is working hard trying to expand the "communist propaganda" or as some call it "the revolution," and part of the "revolution" is to undermine capitalism and brand it as "the evil that causes all the problems in the world..... You think the US should be backing the communist regime in Cuba?......




Originally posted by subz
.......................
So trying to say that now the United States is pressuring Karimov to be more democratic it changes everything is a lie. The United States government was in bed with this dictator knowing full well of the attrocites going on and they made no public objection until after Andijan.


Ok subz....even thou this is off topic let me show you how wrong you are.


(New York, August 10, 2002)
........................
These latest incidents of serious human rights violations could complicate Uzbekistan's relations with the United States. The United States has allied itself closely with Uzbekistan in the war against terrorism, but U.S. government officials have expressed concern that Uzbekistan's harsh treatment of independent Muslims could be counterproductive to the anti-terror effort. The U.S. government recently adopted a law requiring that before delivering aid to the Uzbek government, the Bush administration must determine that Uzbekistan is making "substantial and continuing progress" in meeting the human rights commitments contained in a U.S.-Uzbekistan March 2002 joint declaration.


Excerpted from.
hrw.org...

I have given in the past other links in which US officials have spoken against the human right violations perpetrated by the government there even before what happened in Andijan.


Originally posted by subz
See you assume that. Do you know what I know? Try not to be presumptuous Muaddib. Your insultive tone does you no favours either and does your credibility harm.


You have shown me you don't know much about Cuba since you keep trying to blame the US for things that castro and his revolutionaries have done to the people in Cuba; and I don't try to be presumptuous, but i do point out when presumptous people try to derail a topic by changing the facts.

BTW, if anyone's credibility is suffering it is your own as more and more you show that you will try to change the facts on any topic as long as you can blame the US for it, even if there is not one iota of proof backing your claims.



Originally posted by subz
There is justified criticism of the United States as far as the UN is concerned. The UN's resolutions are vetoed when US interests are suborned for the greater good. The amount of resolutions critical of Israel that were shot down by a single US veto are phenomenal.


Many of the member nations of the UN are against Israel subz and they are in favour of the Palestinians to the point that they show favoritism towards Palestinians and even fund and support terrorist groups such as Hamas. Let me show proof that will back my points.


UNRWA is the largest agency in the United Nations family, employing over 25,000 staff; 99% of UNRWA's employees are locally-recruited Palestinians. [2] The Agency's headquarters are divided between the Gaza Strip and Amman, Jordan. Its operations are organised into five fields - Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, West Bank and Gaza.


Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...

The UNRWA is the largest agency in the UN and it's sole purpose is to help only Palestinians, the rest of the refugees in the world are tended by another, smaller, organization.

Let's see what the head of UNRWA has responded when the world found out that Hamas members are working for the UN.


Hansen caused controversy in Canada in October 2004 when he said in an interview with CBC TV

"Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime. Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another." "We demand of our staff, whatever their political persuasion is, that they behave in accordance with UN standards and norms for neutrality".


Excerpted from above link.

I would like to know exactly how is it possible for member of Hamas to be "neutral" when the possition of Hamas towards Israel is not neutral at all but one that promotes violence.

Let's see what the covenant of Hamas is and see if it's true that Hamas members can be "neutral".....


The Hamas Covenant, written in 1988, states that the organization's goal is to "raise the banner of God over every inch of Palestine," i.e. to eliminate the State of Israel (and any secular Palestinian state which may be established), and to replace it with an Islamic Republic.


Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...

The elimination of the State of Israel....humm....is that neutral in your opinion?........

Let's read some more about some of the actions done by UNRWA.


In 1998, two years before the Al-Aqsa intifada, U.S. Congressman Peter Deutsch (D-FL) and other Congressmembers pressured the State Department to ask UNRWA to investigate evidence that Palestinian Authority school books used in UNRWA-run schools contained anti-Semitic statements. The allegations surfaced in reports complied by the Centre for Monitoring the Impact of Peace, an Israeli-American NGO. In response, UNRWA acknowledged that the books contained statements such as "Treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and one should be aware of them," but insisted that this phrase was not offensive because it described actual "historical events." In January 1999, the State Department confirmed to Congress that "UNRWA’s review did reveal instances of anti-Semitic characterizations and content in these host-authority texts." According to UNRWA’s web site, "UNRWA staff participated in the design and development of the Palestinian curriculum." (Weekly Standard, June 3, 2002)


Excerpted from above link.

Let's not forget the banners with Hamas propaganda that was funded with UN money not so long ago.


UN Official Defends Funding of PA Propaganda, More Revelations of UN Hamas Funding

UN funding of a Palestinian Arab propaganda campaign timed to coincide with Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip has increased tensions between the UN and American officials. America's newly installed ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, labeled "inappropriate and unacceptable" the UN Development Program financing of materials bearing the slogan "Today Gaza, Tomorrow the West Bank and Jerusalem." William Orme, a spokesman for the UNDP, said Wednesday, "We've seen Ambassador Bolton's comments, and we are taking this matter seriously."

Hamas's top official, Khaled Meshaal, Wednesday echoed the theme: "Gaza is the first liberation, then comes the West Bank, then every inch of Palestinian land." "We are at the beginning of the road, and we have not and will not give up our weapons. The battle is not over," Meshaal said while standing in front of a poster reading: "Today Gaza, Tomorrow Jerusalem." Hamas's embrace of the slogan reinforced the fear of Jewish and Israeli leaders that the message would undermine peace efforts and provoke more violence. The head of the Palestinian UNDP program, Timothy Rothermel, said the slogan is "consistent with the relevant UN resolutions and Security Council resolutions about the status of Palestine."


Excerpted from.
www.iris.org.il...



Originally posted by subz
The problem people have with the United States is that they circumvent the United Nations at every opportunity.


As i have shown above, with proof, the UN backs Hamas and the violent overthrow of the State of Israel, so how exactly is that neutral or good for the people of Israel and even Palestine?.....


Originally posted by subz
The US would prefer it if they were incharge of the entire World and their word was law. Lets face it, which country WOULDNT want that?


If that was so the US would truly be the "ruler of the world," and we would be like Rome conquering everyone, including Europe, but we are not doing that subz.


Originally posted by subz
Thats where the UN's purpose comes in. Every country has vested interests and agendas when it comes to their foreign policy. Thats why one country dictating what other countries should do doesnt work. The UN maybe slow and inefficient but atleast it kills hegemony and allows all countries to put their input into a problem. That way when an eventual decision is made not one country comes out with everything it wants.


See above links and statements....the UN seems to have adopted the agenda of Hamas when it comes to Israel subz.



Originally posted by subz
When the United States bypasses the UN it is simply to get everything it wants out of a dispute. This is why people dont like the United States, they are getting everything they want with no regard for any other country.


Right, so the US has no regard for countries like Israel....oh yeah...i fogot, you don't seem to think much of Israel or it's people for what i can see.


Originally posted by subz
They also take umbrage when the United States demands that other countries comply with UN resolutions and the US lambasts the UN when countries do not take heed of the UN. But when the UN tells the US that it must do something the US ignores it citing its inviolable sovereignty. Whats the deal? Either the US recognizes the UN's authourity (demanding Iraq/Iran comply) or it doesnt. At the moment the US is using the UN as its proxy in dictating to the World what it should do. This has to stop.


What has to stop is for some UN member countries that have been hijacking the UN and have been using the UN to further the agenda of groups like Hamas.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib

Let's see what the head of UNRWA has responded when the world found out that Hamas members are working for the UN.


Hansen caused controversy in Canada in October 2004 when he said in an interview with CBC TV

"Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime. Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another." "We demand of our staff, whatever their political persuasion is, that they behave in accordance with UN standards and norms for neutrality".




Originally posted by subz
The problem people have with the United States is that they circumvent the United Nations at every opportunity.


As i have shown above, with proof, the UN backs Hamas and the violent overthrow of the State of Israel, so how exactly is that neutral or good for the people of Israel and even Palestine?.....



Irrelevant and untrue. Nice distortion Paul Atreides.

There are members of Sinn Fein who are not IRA members, why do all members of Hamas have to be militants? And why does an objective employment policy equal the desire by the world body to overthrow Israel?

None of which has anything to do with the fact that the US cannot justify its ecenomic blockade of Cuba given its massive trade with China.

And just because Human Rights Watch as a list compiler is not a US government agency, doesn't mean the State Department isn't either. Why don't you look at its human rights lists.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 12:30 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Well, i had written a response with links to this but forgot to copy and paste the whole response before posting and somehow was lost when I pressed the "post reply" button.

Dont you hate that



Originally posted by Muaddib
Anyways, subz, it is statements like the one above that tell me how much you know about the situation in Cuba and the Communist regime that oppresses the Cuban citizens still living in the island.

The Cuban people do not have any "self-determination" subz.... if they did there wouldn't be millions of Cubans who have left the island and countless other who have died trying to get out of the grasp from the "revolution" and the Communist regime.

Dont you get it? The whole point is that the United States has no say in Cuban internal issues. If the Cubans have a problem with their government its their business to sort it out, not Americas.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Really? could you please show us proof that what you state above is the case?

I did show proof, must I repeat myself? I showed that the United States:

a) Trades with Communist countries (China)
b) Is allied with dictators (Pakistan's Musharraf, Uzbekistan's Karimov)

If the United States is infact carrying out the embargo on Cuba because Fidel is a dictator or because Cuba is communist, then it is being hypocritical. Its not that hard a concept to understand is it?


Originally posted by Muaddib
That is your opinion subz, and as we all know "opinions alone" are not always right, more so when there is no proof to back your claims.

Come on Muaddib, Ive provided ample evidence to back up my opinion in this thread. When you say I havent provided proof, when I clearly have, you must be doing it to test my resolve.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Does the US look also to it's own interests and tries to promote them?.... Yes, of course it does, as every country does. Does that mean that this is the only reasion for the US policies or that because of this the US has a "holier than thou" attitude?... not in my opinion, but then again we can disagree in opinions just like i think that imo sometimes you show a "holier than you attitude", just like i am certain you sometimes think the same of me.

We're allowed to be idealistic Muaddib, if we are not then what is the point of existance? If the pursuit of our ideals is not one of our ideals then we are not worthy of anything.


Originally posted by Muaddib
First of all, you have a beef with the US, then my guess is that we can conclude that you are not objective in any way when it comes to your claims about the US, or even your own country, more so when you don't present evidence to back your claims.

I have a beef with the current American administration, not the US. Just wanted to clarify that. Please, drop the "dont present evidence" malarky, you know its a lie. Or should I ask you to provide proof that im not using evidence?



Originally posted by Muaddib
Second of all, the "beef" that i have is with people like yourself who keep "claiming they know what is happening in Cuba", want to dismiss the first hand experiences told in these forums from people who have seen and experienced the situation in the country, and instead continue trying to blame the US for the problems that the "revolution", the "revolutionaries", and the "communist propaganda/regime" has brought to countries like Cuba.

First of all where did I say I know whats happening in Cuba? You must think I did since you've used quotation marks. Dude your going off half cocked, we're talking about the US lifting its embargo from Cuba. I dont blame the United States for Communism in Cuba.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Subz....the millions of Cubans who have left the communist regime, or have died trying to leave it, did not learn about "communism" from the capitalist point of view, since fidel, his "revolutionaries" and other communists have always blamed every problem the world faces on the US and capitalism and have been the ones that "hide the truth from people" about the differences from communism and capitalism, portraying communism/socialism as the tool taht would save the world and capitalisms the tool that will destroy the world when the facts have proven the contrary.

Muaddib cant you see it? The United States government has done exactly the samething against Communism. Almost to the point of a rabid determination to demonized every single aspect of Communism. Im not blind to the propaganda painted by the Communists, but then again Im not blind to the Capitalist propaganda either. Come on rise above it and come see the view.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Could you show us of a communist regime that has been good to the world and the people?...... and please don't use the "communist propaganda" claiming there has never been any communist regimes.....

Can you show me a capitalist country that has been good for the World? We've got plenty of problems in the World today. Before you go listing off WW2 or the cure for polio or something remember that many of our inventions came before Communism arose.


Originally posted by Muaddib
There are several groups and organizations that have annual reports about China and other countries, many of those groups and organizations don't have anything to do with the US government... so what is exactly your point?...

Dude, whats that got to do with anything? The US government releases its OWN report into the Chinese human rights abuses. Yet they still trade with them, whats not to understand? Who cares if other groups that arent tied to the US government say the samething? It doesnt change a scrap of my argument.


Originally posted by Muaddib
The US also does things in altruism and even in charity, not asking for anything i return, or do you have proof that shows the US has never done any altruistic actions or even provided charity to other countries. Proof please....

Show me some of your own proof of truly altruistic foreign policy. Im not talking about foreign aid, how cant that be charity? Im talking about foreign policy i.e. wars, sanctions, rhetoric etc.


Originally posted by Muaddib
That's your opinion, but then again you have no idea what the communist regime is/has been up to, and you have no experience whatsoever with the regime or it's propaganda.

I havent been to Antartica either, but I know its cold.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Again, present proof that the US does not sees the communist regime, that is oppressing the people in Cuba and is trying to expand the communist propaganda around the world, as a reason to keep the embargo in Cuba.... proof please.

Because the United States happily trades with China who is the worlds largest communist country!


Originally posted by Muaddib
Subz, the Cuban regime is working hard trying to expand the "communist propaganda" or as some call it "the revolution," and part of the "revolution" is to undermine capitalism and brand it as "the evil that causes all the problems in the world..... You think the US should be backing the communist regime in Cuba?......

I have no doubt that the communist countries of this world are extolling the virtues of communism and their system. But you fail to see that the Capitalists are doing the very very same thing. Yet you believe when communists do this its wrong but when capitalists do it its fine. Come on, either spreading propaganda is wrong or its not. What say you?


Originally posted by Muaddib
Ok subz....even thou this is off topic let me show you how wrong you are.

Muaddib your wasting your time here. I've shown that even before the War on Terror the Senate Foreign Relations Committee denounced Uzbekistan for its human rights attrocities. My point is that, even knowing how bad Uzbekistan is, the Bush administration publically allied itself with Karimov. You showing evidence that the American government admits that Uzbekistan's regime is evil, and that they passed laws against Uzbekistan, only bolsters my own arguement. The Bush administration willingly and knowingly allied itself with a despotic, torturous and attrocious regime. Prove to me that the Bush administration didnt know about Karimov's attrocities BEFORE they allied with them and you might be doing something constructive to back your own argument up.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Many of the member nations of the UN are against Israel subz and they are in favour of the Palestinians to the point that they show favoritism towards Palestinians and even fund and support terrorist groups such as Hamas. Let me show proof that will back my points.

In future dont waste mine and your own time going off topic so well and truly as you have here. You do realise there are dozens of UN Security Council resolutions critical of Israel that the United States has vetoed? These are countries such as Britain, France, Russia and China who the United States is vetoing. Not Hamas or Palestinians. Are you saying that Britain and France are supporters of Hamas?


Originally posted by Muaddib
As i have shown above, with proof, the UN backs Hamas and the violent overthrow of the State of Israel,

No you have not, you showed that some segments of the UN do.


Originally posted by Muaddib
so how exactly is that neutral or good for the people of Israel and even Palestine?.....

It beats having one sided arguments such as complete support and unequivocal backing of Israel. Surely you jest when you think otherwise.


Originally posted by Muaddib
If that was so the US would truly be the "ruler of the world," and we would be like Rome conquering everyone, including Europe, but we are not doing that subz.

You really expect me to believe that? So youre saying the United States doesnt have designs on running the World because if it did it would recreate the Roman Empire? Honestly?


Originally posted by Muaddib
See above links and statements....the UN seems to have adopted the agenda of Hamas when it comes to Israel subz.

Or that Hamas has a legitimate beef with Israel and Israel has done wrong? Cant you accept that Israel has done things it shouldnt? Such as firing into refugee camps? Come on Muaddib, there are reasons the rest of the World (UN) backs up SOME of Hamas's statements. They do this because they have a point! You really must think the entire World, except Israel and United States, is delusional on this topic? Thats the height of arrogance.


Originally posted by Muaddib
Right, so the US has no regard for countries like Israel....oh yeah...i fogot, you don't seem to think much of Israel or it's people for what i can see.

What the hell are you on about here? I have nothing against Israelis. I believe their government does things that are beyond the pale, but that doesnt automatically mean I dont like all of Israel. The only people who try to tie criticism of a government to hating the entire population, are people who try to bolster their own argument by using nationalism to prop themselves up.


Originally posted by Muaddib
What has to stop is for some UN member countries that have been hijacking the UN and have been using the UN to further the agenda of groups like Hamas.

What happens when a terrorist group has a legitimate complaint? Are we to simply ignore it due to where the complaint comes from? The rest of the World can see that some of Israel's actions are wrong, just because Hamas calls attention to these wrongs does not mean the UN is backing all of Hamas's objectives. To say as much is to deliberately be misleading.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 07:34 AM
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[off topic]

Forget this...

Let's talk about Guatemala, and what the U.S. government did in the 50's to Guatemala in the name of capitalism, which was the cause of up to 100000 people dying over a span of a few decades.

Communism has blood on it's hands, Capitalism has blood on it's hands. Neither is better.

[/offtopic]


Carry on people.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Irrelevant and untrue. Nice distortion Paul Atreides.


How exactly is it irrelevant and untrue?..... First of all, I gave several "reliable" links, if you have proof that anything that I posted is not true post links please that back up your own argument....don't just claim it is not true.

That first, second, let's see what Hamas is and whether or not any members of HAMAS can have a neutral stand when it concerns Israel.


Hamas regards the land that it calls Palestine, including all of present-day Israel, as an Islamic homeland that can never be surrendered to non-Muslims, and asserts that individual and community struggle (jihad) to wrest control of the land from Israel is a religious duty for all Muslims. This position is more radical than that of the PLO, which in 1988 recognized Israel's sovereignty. Hamas does not recognize Israel as a sovereign state and refers to Israel as the "Zionist entity".


Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...



Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
There are members of Sinn Fein who are not IRA members, why do all members of Hamas have to be militants? And why does an objective employment policy equal the desire by the world body to overthrow Israel?


Because HAMAS does not recognize Israel and it supports violence to achieve their goals. Any members of HAMAS want to achieve that same goal, hence no HAMAS member could be considered by anyone in their right mind as a "neutral" member of the UN, or of HAMAS.



Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
None of which has anything to do with the fact that the US cannot justify its ecenomic blockade of Cuba given its massive trade with China.


I was giving a response to someone that went off topic, and I said so in my response.


Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
And just because Human Rights Watch as a list compiler is not a US government agency, doesn't mean the State Department isn't either. Why don't you look at its human rights lists.


Could you clarify what you are trying to say above?

Now, once again, if you have proof that anything I said is not true or irrelevant to my response to that other member then please do post links instead of making claims.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 07:07 PM
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There isn't a true embargo on Cuba. The US government allows several US companies to trade directly with Cuba though permission though the State Department. Believe it, I work for one of them. Truth is, the "embargo" is slowly ending.



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by subz

Dont you get it? The whole point is that the United States has no say in Cuban internal issues. If the Cubans have a problem with their government its their business to sort it out, not Americas.


Subz, you are the one who doesn't seem to get it. castro not only helps other "communist/revolutionary" countries/dictators, he helps everyone who has a grudge against the US and attacks the US any way possible. It is "America's business" subz.



Originally posted by subz
If the United States is infact carrying out the embargo on Cuba because Fidel is a dictator or because Cuba is communist, then it is being hypocritical. Its not that hard a concept to understand is it?


castro is not only a communist and a dictator, he openly uses pretty much every resource he has to attack the US, short of doing all out war against the US, but now castro has one more "revolutionary friend" in Chavez who is calling for the destruction of Capitalism. If castro could get countries like China and Russia to back him in a military attack against the US, we would be at war with them at this moment, but the Chinese play chess, they don't play checkers like castro, and the Russians are not ready yet for such an action either.


Originally posted by subz
Come on Muaddib, Ive provided ample evidence to back up my opinion in this thread. When you say I havent provided proof, when I clearly have, you must be doing it to test my resolve.


You did not subz, you gave your opinion only. Do a search on what countries does castro does most of his business with and what statements he gives to the Cuban people and the world in his speeches, perhaps then you'll understand.


Originally posted by subz
We're allowed to be idealistic Muaddib, if we are not then what is the point of existance? If the pursuit of our ideals is not one of our ideals then we are not worthy of anything.


But people have to be realistic subz, otherwise many nations wouldn't exist if we were merely idealistic people. There is nothing wrong with idealism, as long as you have some common sense and realize that there is a difference between "ideals" and "reality."


Originally posted by subz
I have a beef with the current American administration, not the US. Just wanted to clarify that. Please, drop the "dont present evidence" malarky, you know its a lie. Or should I ask you to provide proof that im not using evidence?


First, you claim that because I have a beef with castro that my opinions and my experience with such regime don't matter because it is biased. You did not say it in those words, but pretty much meant it as I can read in your statements.


Originally posted by subz
First of all where did I say I know whats happening in Cuba? You must think I did since you've used quotation marks. Dude your going off half cocked, we're talking about the US lifting its embargo from Cuba. I dont blame the United States for Communism in Cuba.


Well, you posted claims on the situation in Cuba and when I responded clarifying that your claims are not true you mentioned that I was "presumtuous" in my statements and for me not to assume on what you know or don't know about Cuba...


Originally posted by subz
Muaddib cant you see it? The United States government has done exactly the samething against Communism. Almost to the point of a rabid determination to demonized every single aspect of Communism. Im not blind to the propaganda painted by the Communists, but then again Im not blind to the Capitalist propaganda either. Come on rise above it and come see the view.


I can assure you that most Cubans, and other people who live/lived in communist countries did not learn of any propaganda against Communism, but learned by first hand experience and we can see this because millions of people from communist countries have fleed, and continue to flee, or died trying to flee from communist regimes. Yet we haven't seen in the history of the world millions of people fleeing towards Communist regimes trying to avoid Capitalism.... That should speak for itself subz.... yet you somehow seem oblivious to this...


Originally posted by subz
Can you show me a capitalist country that has been good for the World? We've got plenty of problems in the World today. Before you go listing off WW2 or the cure for polio or something remember that many of our inventions came before Communism arose.


Without naming the US, since you have a beef with the US and your own country, pretty much most countries in the world are Capitalists subz....Well, I should say many instead of most.


Originally posted by subz
Dude, whats that got to do with anything? The US government releases its OWN report into the Chinese human rights abuses. Yet they still trade with them, whats not to understand? Who cares if other groups that arent tied to the US government say the samething? It doesnt change a scrap of my argument.


And there is some trade, restricted, with Cuba. BTW, you do know that there is an arms embargo against China and that the US has been against lifting this embargo right?...




Originally posted by subz
Show me some of your own proof of truly altruistic foreign policy. Im not talking about foreign aid, how cant that be charity? Im talking about foreign policy i.e. wars, sanctions, rhetoric etc.


I have to wonder since when "foreign" aid is not "foreign" policy?...

Since this is way off topic, let me post just a couple of things the US has done which does not help the US.


Johannesburg - South Africa and the United States launched a $3.4m (about R22m) programme to contain the alarming spread of HIV/Aids among school teachers in three badly hit provinces.

The project will target teachers in eastern KwaZulu-Natal, where almost 22% of teachers are HIV-positive, northern Mpumalanga and the coastal Eastern Cape region.


Excerpted from.
www.news24.com...


U.S. Helps Djibouti Become “Mine-Safe”
The United States began providing mine action assistance to Djibouti in fiscal year 2000. In 2001, a contingent of U.S. Marines provided humanitarian demining training to Djiboutian army engineers. Simultaneously, RONCO Consulting Corporation, under contract to the U.S. Department of State and in coordination with the U.S. Embassy in Djibouti, established and equipped the Djibouti Mine Action Center. The United States invested nearly $3 million dollars to help make Djibouti landmine impact free.


Excerpted from.
www.state.gov...

and the last one.


When President Bush unveiled his budget in January, not only did he propose the largest increase in foreign aid in two decades but for the first time he also called for holding recipients accountable -- requiring them to fight corruption, democratize and make investments in education and health care.These new conditions for American assistance reflect an emerging consensus that aid works best as a development tool when given to countries that are pursuing sound economic policies.


Excerpted from.
www.globalpolicy.org...




Originally posted by subz
I havent been to Antartica either, but I know its cold.


Riiight....and what in the world does that have to do with knowledge of a system that you have never experienced?....

You are trying to compare oranges and apples subz.




Originally posted by subz
I have no doubt that the communist countries of this world are extolling the virtues of communism and their system. But you fail to see that the Capitalists are doing the very very same thing. Yet you believe when communists do this its wrong but when capitalists do it its fine. Come on, either spreading propaganda is wrong or its not. What say you?


I see, so to you spreading the propaganda of a system that has proven time and time again that it oppresses people instead of giving them more freedom, Communism, is the same as spreading a system that has proven to have made the world better?....

And yes subz, Capitalism has made the world a better place. i am not saying that there are no unscrupulous people who use Capitalism for their own gains but this is not the rule in Capitalism. In Communism, it has been shown throughout the years, and decades, that this system only opresses the people instead of giving them the freedom and rights it's propaganda claims it will give them.



Originally posted by subz
My point is that, even knowing how bad Uzbekistan is, the Bush administration publically allied itself with Karimov. You showing evidence that the American government admits that Uzbekistan's regime is evil, and that they passed laws against Uzbekistan, only bolsters my own arguement.


Let me get this clear....you are claiming that when I showed evidence that the US has passed laws/resolutions years ago saying we would help Uzbekistan only if they upheld those laws/resolutions which are meant to lessen or even eradicate the country's human right violations is bolstering your argument? (BTW, I am being an idealist for a moment if it was even possible to "eradicate" all human right violations)

Even after you claimed that the US has never before done anything against Uzbekistan when it concerns it's human right violations except after the Uzbek killings?.....

....Right subz......



Originally posted by subz
In future dont waste mine and your own time going off topic so well and truly as you have here.


....this coming from the same person who used the Cuban embargo as an excuse to go off topic and write about Israel/Palestine and other issues which have nothing to do with the Cuban embargo?...... you must be joking...



Originally posted by subzAre you saying that Britain and France are supporters of Hamas?


I gave examples of what I was talking about for a reason subz, but I do think that "political correctness" is making many countries overlook what HAMAS and the PLO have done trying to destroy Israel. Although the PLO has changed in it's stance a bit with respect to Israel.


Originally posted by subz
No you have not, you showed that some segments of the UN do.


Which includes the biggest branch in the UN and the head of that branch who obviously has favoritism towards HAMAS and the PLO.


Originally posted by subz
It beats having one sided arguments such as complete support and unequivocal backing of Israel. Surely you jest when you think otherwise.


I see....so you think I jest when I don't agree with an organization whose goal is the total obliteration of Israel? or that I jest when I think it is ironic, to say the least, for the head of the largest branch in the UN to claim that members of HAMAS are neutral and can peacefully work with Israel when HAMAS goals include to total obliteration of Israel and it's people?


Originally posted by subz
You really expect me to believe that? So youre saying the United States doesnt have designs on running the World because if it did it would recreate the Roman Empire? Honestly?


No subz, what I said is that if the US really wanted to be the ruler of the world, the US would probably be the ruler of the world and we wouldn't really give a crap about the opinion of the rest of the world, and before you start proclaiming that only the US and Brittain wanted to start a war against Iraq because of the wmd and other issues, remember that the world was pretty much split in half about the war in Iraq, and there were less the countries that didn't think a war in Afghanistan was necessary.


Originally posted by subz
Or that Hamas has a legitimate beef with Israel and Israel has done wrong? Cant you accept that Israel has done things it shouldnt? Such as firing into refugee camps? Come on Muaddib, there are reasons the rest of the World (UN) backs up SOME of Hamas's statements. They do this because they have a point! You really must think the entire World, except Israel and United States, is delusional on this topic? Thats the height of arrogance.


Can you show us proof that the whole world except Israel and the US have a beef against HAMAS subz?.....

Last I heard HAMAS is recognized as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union (that's 25 countries subz), the US and Israel.


Hamas, acronym of Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyyah (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الاسلامية, literally "Islamic Resistance Movement" and Arabic for 'zeal' or 'courage'), is a Palestinian Islamist paramilitary organization closely related to the Muslim Brotherhood. Its stated goal is to establish an Islamic theocracy in the area that is currently Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.

It is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel, and its attacks targeting Israeli civilians and other human rights abuses have been condemned by the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and by Human Rights Watch.


Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...

BTW, keep your insults out of the forums subz.


Originally posted by subz
What the hell are you on about here? I have nothing against Israelis. I believe their government does things that are beyond the pale, but that doesnt automatically mean I dont like all of Israel. The only people who try to tie criticism of a government to hating the entire population, are people who try to bolster their own argument by using nationalism to prop themselves up.


Right...so when you say that Israel (that means all of Israel and it's people) were made up like bandits when their country was finally partitioned with Palestine is not indicative of your dislike against the people of Israel?....


Originally posted by subz
What happens when a terrorist group has a legitimate complaint? Are we to simply ignore it due to where the complaint comes from? The rest of the World can see that some of Israel's actions are wrong, just because Hamas calls attention to these wrongs does not mean the UN is backing all of Hamas's objectives. To say as much is to deliberately be misleading.


First of all, terrorism has no "legitimate complaint." You don't go around willingly targeting civilians and trying to kill as many civilians or destroy as much property as possible to make an statement.

Second, Subz for the head of the largest branch in the UN to say that there are HAMAS members working in the UN and that they can be neutral is a "deliberate misleading statement" to say the least, and one that shows that this man seems to agree with the statements that come from HAMAS.

I also gave evidence, in the form of links, that many members of the UN seem to back not only the PLO but HAMAS to the point that UN money and resources have been used to further the agenda and spread the violent propaganda from HAMAS. Yet, the head of the largest branch of the UN claims that it is ok to have HAMAS members working in the UN?.....



[edit on 27-10-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Oct, 27 2005 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
How exactly is it irrelevant and untrue?..... First of all, I gave several "reliable" links, if you have proof that anything that I posted is not true post links please that back up your own argument....don't just claim it is not true.


I say again: Nice distortion, Paul Atreides. Your distortion makes it untrue. You are twisting something to fit the argument you want, standard ideologue tactic.


That first, second, let's see what Hamas is and whether or not any members of HAMAS can have a neutral stand when it concerns Israel.


Hamas regards the land that it calls Palestine, including all of present-day Israel, as an Islamic homeland ...


Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...


As stated in another thread, wikipedia is not an accepted academic reference and this quote is a good example of why. Pure opinion, just read it.


Because HAMAS does not recognize Israel and it supports violence to achieve their goals. Any members of HAMAS want to achieve that same goal, hence no HAMAS member could be considered by anyone in their right mind as a "neutral" member of the UN, or of HAMAS.


That's okay, Israel uses viloence against the Palestinians. So, members of a dispossessed people cannot be employed by an agency whose sole brief is to aid those same people? Especially as none of those people are employed to work in Israel.




Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
And just because Human Rights Watch as a list compiler is not a US government agency, doesn't mean the State Department isn't either. Why don't you look at its human rights lists.


Could you clarify what you are trying to say above?


Certainly. You appear to discount lists of human rights abuses in China drawn up by NGOs. ie "It's okay to trade with China because those lists aren't drawn up by the government." I merely pointed out that the State Department also draws up lists of human rights abuses. China features heavily on that list.

Therefore any argument in favour of an economic blockade of Cuba based on human rights abuses is null and void due to the US' massive trade with China when a government department (the ministry of foreign affairs) does a yearly revue of continuing human rights abuses in China.


Now, once again, if you have proof that anything I said is not true or irrelevant to my response to that other member then please do post links instead of making claims.


Your distortion of the situation to fit your view makes it untrue. Because a single UN agency employs people who have ties to an organisation the US describes as terrorist does not mean the UN as a whole from the ground floor all the way to Kofi Annan's office has at the top of (or anywhere on) its agenda the destruction of Israel.

As for lists, if current US criteria were applied 40 years ago the ANC would be listed as a terrorist organisation and Nelson Mandela and Steve Biko would be reviled for it.

Russia and China are using the War on Terror as an excuse to supress and subdue Islamic minorities who have a legitimate right to self-determination. Russia is using it as an excuse to abrogate a peace treaty and assassinate democratically-elected presidents.




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