Calling all Christians! Riddle me this...

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
So, why does this countrys political agenda deal with Gay marriage and abortion? Don't the christians think that this is judgemental and casting stone to circumstances they don't fully understand?

I'm a Catholic. As far as Gay marriage goes .. I don't care.
I just don't want the constitution mucked with.

As far as abortion goes ... how on earth do you think it's 'judgemental'
to want to stop preborn children from being painfully shredded to
death? How is it judgemental to want to stop preborn children from
being painfully burned to death with chemicals?

That's not being 'judgemental'. That's being compassionate and not
wanting any human to feel that kind of pain. Unborn children DO feel
pain. The point at which they start to feel pain is uncertain. Some
doctors put it as early as 12 weeks (3 months pregnant).

Unborn children open their eyes in the womb, suck their thumbs,
play with the umbilical cord, yawn, AND FEEL. When surgery is done
on preborn children, they are given pain killers during surgery.
When they are painfully killed in abortion ... they receive nothing
and their bodies are then sold to pharmacutical plants for drug
tests or burned into ashes like the Jews in Nazi camps.

Those humans deserve better treatment.
Making people aware of the pain the unborn feel is important.
It's the only way to get this ugly practice changed.
That's not being judgemental.
That's being compassionate and accurate with the facts.


[edit on 10/17/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
First, is your name daved? If so you shouldn't sign away as, no one cares.

i am sorry that i have erred in such a terrible way that you would need to belittle me publicly.
i would appreciate some greater form of respect in the future, or i will have to make report to the mods. nevertheless, thank you for bringing to my attention that it is not commonplace to sign your own name to your own words on a forum. i do it strictly by habit.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
You say this isn't a christian nation. I believe it was the evangelists that put Bush in the white house twice! It's no secret! His campaign catered to christians beliefs. Talk about doing some research. And our founding fathers were dietists. And they also thought african americans were sub-human, what is your point? Let's worry about the world we live in today, 2005, not you clouded version of what our constitution states, because that thing was bastardsized a long time ago. LAZY BUTT

so, what you are trying to tell me, is that two elections define the integrity and lasting values of a nation over hundreds of years? hmm... i think you are missing the whole point of the founding fathers' intentions. was it freedom for the most popular? or was it freedom for all? i suppose the electoral college was just a mistake?

Originally posted by Amethyst
This was once a Christian nation, believe it or not, and most of our Founding Fathers were Christians, not deists.

if this was supported by their own words, then i might "believe it." but since it is in fact invalidated by their own words, i suppose that i will "or not."

please take some time to read quotes by the incredibly intelligent founding fathers of the united states. i do, wholeheartedly, disagree with their theological ideals, but still remain thankful for the freedom that they stood for.

Originally posted by Amethyst
Did you know that 200 years ago the government could order Bibles for schools and everyone was okay with that? Nowadays you do that and you get the Anti-Christian Liars Union on your case. (Note--I agree with the ACLU on one or two things--the rest is a bunch of crap.)

just because christianity stood as the popular belief for a time does not necessarily justify it as anything more than simply that. people break the speed limit every day. it is socially accepted and therefore is not enforced as strictly as it should be. it doesn't change that the max limit is the max limit and if the social climate changed, there would be a lot more people in traffic school.

Originally posted by Amethyst
Know what the "Great Commission" is? It's preaching the Gospel.

firstly, the great commission was given to the early church and more specifically was ordered in such a way that not every man participated in such procedure. secondly, evangelism is a "gift" that not every man has anyway. there is a degree of "good news spreading" that every man can do, but regardless, the greater works are to be done by those who are gifted with greater portions.

please also keep in mind that we are told to live peaceably. i would expect that this value is to be honored even with those who are acting in rebellion to God's law. any actions by a christian to tear down a person is rightfully called hypocritical.

Dasher,

I'm sorry I offended you, it wasn't the first time I noticed, so I thought I'd make a soft comment, the joke was supposed to lighten the fact of me correcting you, (I wasn't sure it was a mistake on your part) Anyway, you don't have any idea what their ideas were. I don't doubt they had good intentions. All I'm saying is that they owned slaved and lobbied to keep it legal. Doing that kind of opens a pandora's box for sinister potential. That's all I'm saying. (Don't tell the mods on me).

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
If one of the principal apsects of the bible suggests not to judge a man by his journey, but by his destination. Frankly it says DO NOT JUDGE! Ye without sin cast the first stone! Getting my drift I hope. So, why does this countrys political agenda deal with Gay marriage and abortion? Don't the christians think that this is judgemental and casting stone to circumstances they don't fully understand? My point is, Bush is in power because he knew this much and made it an issue. But my question is why is it an issue? Isn't it a bit hypocritical?

If I say that I see a green tree frog, or I see someone stealing, or I find out someone stole something, and in response I say I see a green tree frog, or saw him steal something, or call someone a thief that is merely stating a fact!
NOT JUDGING!!!!!!!!!
If I say about the guy who I see stealing that he is doing it because he needs the money for drugs, or to feed his family, or something similiar to this,
THAT IS JUDGING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I say a homo is the way he because he grew up without a father, or he never knew male love because his dad spurned him,
THAT IS JUDGING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stating a Biblical fact is not judgement!
You don't understand Christianity
Christians have no sin in the eyes of the Lord
Does that mean we won't sin, NO IT DOESN'T
God corrects us as Christians, and trust me he knows just how to do it in every situation. And the way he does it would be ways we never thought of.
I'll tell you one of my sins. I was married and my wife always cheated on me, and I was starved for sex. She left me, and I rented an R rated movie with strong sexual content. I went to take the movie back, ( Just so you know I had a memory that never forgot anything!!!! ) well I forgot and left it in the car in the sunlight and it cost me $80 that I really couldn't afford. My Father the Lord said to me: "If you do again, I will keep on making you forget it, or cause something to happen to it every time! Well I knew I was wrong and both my conscious and the pain brought me right in line!
Only nonbelievers will come under God's Judgement, the rest of us who are believers have our sins continually washed away in Christs blood, never to be remembered!
Judging only applies to a non-believer to a non-believer, because what does it say: for with what measure ye judge, ye will be judged yourself. A Christian sins are removed from them as far as the east is from the west, buried in the sea to be remembered no more. If you were to ask God about any true Christian on any sin they committed, He would reply: "What sin!?" that is scriptural fact.
I will say this much to you:
NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN IS ONE!
GOD SAID BROAD IS THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION, AND NARROW IS THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO "ETERNAL LIFE" AND
"FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT"
THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW IF SOMEONE TRULY IS A CHRISTIAN IS BY THE FOLLOWING ACID TEST, BECAUSE YOU ARE EITHER FOR JESUS OR AGAINST HIM, GOD NEVER SAID THERE WAS A MIDDLE OF THE ROAD WITH HIM!!!!!!
HERE IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS TO PROVE A CHRISTIAN:
1John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
So if a person cannot word for word say:

"Jesus Christ is come in the flesh"

Then they are not a Christian, I know this may not set well with many but that is what God said.
I know that there are Christians that sin ( the real ones God corrects ), and many who claim they are Christians and sin.
But in both groups, they should be obedient to God and not sin before non-believers!
Just remember a Christian is not perfect ( and they won't be until they get thier spiritual body ) but I do apologize for the ones who have claimed such to you while openly sinning.
Salvation is easy, even if you don't believe in God ( but would like to, and you know you've wronged (sinned ) against God ) JUst ask him to help your unbelief to help you believe, and thenask him to forgive and save you. It is that easy, Satan always bombards us with the continuous idea that EVERYTHING WE DO MUST BE EARNED,
NOT WITH GOD
GRACE IS UNDESERVED FAVOR OR AWARD WHEN WE WERE OR ARE NOT DESERVING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GODS GRACE IS ENDLESS, AND TIME IS SHORT.
ONLY FOOLS WILL BE IN HELL.

Remember, Satan used scripture to tempt Christ. So Revisionism is to be expected. It is his speciality really. You know it's like the Garden, when he asked Eve, 'did God REALLY say that?' So arguing with the Father of Lie's is pointless really. One can only state the Truth and let it have it's effect.

But that aside, are we not still a Democracy? Why is it that any time the issue of Perverting Marriage come's on the Ballot, it get's voted down? Why are a minority of deviant's causing such a ruckus?

I guess it's the old misery love's company scenario. If society accept's my deviancy then it won't be deviancy. Wrong. God judge's nation's when they fall this far morally, ie. Sodom & Gommorah.

I think this is the part where someone trie's to reject the Bible out of hand. I just can't understand why, if you don't like the rule's here, you just don't go start your own Universe. What? Still here? Look's like you live under Law's whether you like it or not!

I could go get the Cathecism out of the closet, but it hurts to even look at such a boring book.

What i remeber from catholic school is that the chruch has nothing against gay people( them as a person), but them acting on their homosexuality. They want them to choose another vocation besides marriage which is holy orders. I think most chrstian sects agree with that.

As for the abortion, its taking human life before it even has a chance.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
If one of the principal apsects of the bible suggests not to judge a man by his journey, but by his destination. Frankly it says DO NOT JUDGE!

No, not exactly. the bible says "judge not, lest thee be judged". One has the right to choose to judge, but the just rewards for having done so will be their own words and truth coming right back at them.

want a demonstration of how truth and the words of those who judge can be detremental to the thought processes of those who judge?

So, why does this countrys political agenda deal with Gay marriage ...? Don't the christians think that this is judgemental and casting stone to circumstances they don't fully understand?

OK. I'll take your suggestion about Gay Marriage and use Bush's administration's words to demonstrate how ignorant they are. I'll take the simplest truths, and their own words to show how they judge, and why they are wrong for having even openned their mouths about it in the first place....

Whenever anyone decides to cast judgment on another, or the actions and behaviors of others, they have to make a comparison.

a person who decides to judge, decides to compare all they know about a subject to everything they know about themselves, and what they have witnessed.

So, when Bush decided to judge homosexual actions and behaviors, he had to compare the actions and behaviors he was judging with everything he knows about his own intentions, his own motivations, and his own actions and behaviors....

So, when Bush said: "It is a choice", he did not lie. Why? Because if he looked deep within himself to find his truth of "It is a choice", then he knows that there has been at least one moment in his life when he looked at another man and thought to himself: "maybe i would have sex with him". and then Bush had to make a choice.

This is the only way Bush can justify why he would know: "It is a choice". Because he had to choose. Same thing for everyone in his administration that agrees with him.


personnally i am not offended when i see two men holding hands as they walk down the street. Less competition for me.

ya know, people, the only way there are godless people running around the earth is if their are such things as vampires, or zombies.....every living human being has at least a little bit of God within him. they may keep it hidden away in a dark corner somewhere in the soul with a 20 ft thick brick wall separating it from themselves...but it's there and those brick wall can come crashing down the minute God decides for it to be so....declaring someone to be godless is not only judging them, it is judging them falsely!!

unless of course they're a clone, then, well, maybe you might be right.

"judge not, lest you be judged"......reading through these boards dealing with christianity, you can find the truth of this statement.....
they are full of judgements against christianity!!! and why are people so quick to judge this religion? could it be that people are reacting to that portion of the christians community who has judged them based on their interpretation of what is Godly and then proceeded to call them such things as "Godless"!! and not only that, they have become political activists in an attempt to have the state declare them "Godless" also.
if you can't take the heat of being called witch burners, ect. ect....then don't proceed make the judgements on others!!
act as christians, and no one will have much to say against you!!

as far as gay marriage goes, I agree with the person on the board that says that it is more that people want to preserve those little perks that society endows married couples with...for those they deem to be deserving of them!!
for those of you who feel the government has no right to legislate marriage, it's for the religous organizations......would you concede that then, the government, and society, should also do away with all these little perks they have that were designed to promote that traditional family?

this might have been a country that was predominately leaned towards protestantism...but then we took texas, and other western states, and then we let in a bunch of Catholics...and well, it was no longer predominately protestant....then we let in a bunch of chinese budhists, some hindus, muslims...and well, now....I don't think it is predominately anything!!
you think it's still predominately christian? okay, next time you go to a resturant....spend some time observing people...just how many of them are saying grace before they sit down to eat? over the past year, I think I've noticed one group of diners doing this....we are not a christian nation, if we were, there wouldn't be such a ruckus to get their ideology forced down our throats to begin with.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
DO NOT JUDGE! why does this countrys political agenda deal with Gay marriage ... Don't the christians think that this is judgemental and casting stone to circumstances they don't fully understand?

As I said last time .. I don't want the constitution mucked with and I'm not against legal Gay unions.

You have a question about christians being judgemental when they say they are against homosexuality. Technically christians ARE NOT judging homosexuals. Technically the bible has already done so and the christians are following what the bible teaches them to do. Read ROMANS and you will see that scripture is very clear about what homosexuality is in the eyes of God.

I do agree with you about the 'not fully understanding' homosexuality. Those that wrote the bible thousands of years ago didn't understand what makes a person homosexual. Many people today also do not understand that some people are born that way and some are 'made' that way due to life experiences.


(FUNNY! I wrote this almost exactly one year after my last post on this thread - and my thoughts on this haven't changed at all. hmmmm .. I find that interesting for some reason)




[edit on 10/16/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by jfdarby
1 Corinthians 5: 9-13 This should give hope to some


I Have Written you in a letter not to associate with sexually Immoral people 10, Not all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the Greedy and the swindlers, or idolaters. in this case you should have to leave this world 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother, but is sexually immoral or greedy an idolater or a slanderer, A Drunkard or a swindler with such men do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the Church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will Judge outside. Expel the wicked man from among You..

To me that would keep a lot of the name calling to a degree, that if you think a little before You condeme any one, well there would not be to much to talk about most of the time .......

I believe that jfdarby has hit the nail on the head here. In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul tells them that they are to sever ties from those without morality within the church, but not from outside of the church....or we'd basically have to leave the world.

As far as our country is councerned, I don't see where a Christian is to ram his morality down the throat of non-believers. Believers have a right and obligation to participate in the political system as much as their faith allows. This means that we do have an obligation to vote, to attempt to obtain leaders who will do right according to the laws of the land and the morality of God. This does not mean that the ends justifies the means.

Christians are not to do away with abortion, gay marriage, etc at any cost. We may do it politically and ethically. If we can do so by persuasion, election or any other legal means then that is what we have a right to do and ought to do as citizens of this great country of ours.

Christians have attempted to do this via the Republican Party for the last 30 years or so. They have elected those of the Republican Party because they say that they will do everything in their power to change the laws of the land to protect the innocent and not yet born from being dismembered while still in the womb. These past 6 years they have not done that.

The Republican Party should have created a law or two that would attempt to change the way things are and would certainly make it's way to the U.S. Supreme Court to test the resolve of the new Justices that have been appointed during the Bush Administration. They have not done this and thus have shown to the Christian world what they are truly made of. The Republican Party has proven to most of the Christian Community that they only wave those abortion and gay marriage banners in order to obtain votes....they, in all actuality, will not do anything about the issues that Christians vote them into office for.

Of all of the battles that the Republican Party have chosen to take on, abortion has not been one of them.

On the chance that someone here would say that they are currently doing that, the issue that is going to the Supreme Court is not going to stop any abortions....rather it is only an issue of stopping 1 of the 2 proceedures of partial birth abortion that are practiced. I hope that Christians will not be duped into believing that this is a step in the right direction. Though it is true that we should take small steps in the political arena to win this for the unborn, this is not even a baby step.

Since Christians cannot currently change these issues via legal and ethical political means, we must be left to persuasion or to offer other options. This means that we ought to do everything in our power to let the youth of our country know that there are many couples in this country that cannot have a baby and are looking to adopt. They want to adopt a newborn so much that they are willing to provide a place to live and pay for all medical expenses of a young mother just to obtain a newborn.

There is much more that could be written about this issue, but that is not the direct topic of this thread.



Getting back to the issue at hand.... As jfdarby pointed out in his quote above, a Christian must judge morality within the church. However, outside of the church we are obligated to behave as law abiding citizens of the country that we reside within.

We have no business telling those outside of the church how to carry on their lives in dictating and imposing our morality on them. From a Christian perspective, if a person may be going to hell, then what would it matter whether they do it morally or not. A Christians first concern for that person should be Salvation. Dictating morality prior to that is wrong.

The abortion issue and the defense of the defenseless is a very important matter to Christians. However, Christians need to realize that the Republican Party has used them to obtain power and that once the power was obtained, they did not follow through in their obligation to the Christian Community. We were used for our votes and they have lied to us!!

Christians have no place in judging outside of the church.

We have a right, however, to participate as citizens of this country effect the laws of the country just as all other citizens have a right to.

AAC--

From my viewpoint as a Chrstian Minister, let me try to put your question, and this thread, into perspective. ("a" perspective.)

It is my belief, and that of our organization, that the point and goal of Christianity is to provide a Path and a Goal toward Spiritual perfection. What I see happening in the Christain mainstreem is a ceasession of that proactive search on the part of individual Christians, and Churches, in lieu of finding all kinds of excuses and distractions for not continuing such a path. It is as if they were saying, "I (We) cannot achieve this Goal, nor walk this Path, so log as there are People who_____."
Further, it is the understanding of our Faith that God accepts All, and so must we, lest we place ourselves above the Will of the Almighty. It is not for us to Judge anyone other than ourselves, as individuals, and that against the Teachings and Laws of God, which are written in Life, itself. In short form, there is no Man or Woman, or any form of Life, that is better or worse than me. We are all equal in the Eyes of God. In the same light, no one "sin" is worse or better than any other.

There is no salvation, or Forgiveness, in the publication and continuance of Hatred. God is Love. Though these "Christians" claim a stance of Love by the very name they carry, they publicize Fear, and the Prophesy of Fear is False, and the Teaching of Fear to Others is against the very fundamentals of the Faith. Rather than take a stand Against these "issues", they would be better to take a stance that is Pro-Love, and teach others that Value through the example of their own Lives, Their own Works of Faith, and the Fruit born of them.

Christianity must be more than a "name"--it must be an exemplary Life by the dictates of the Law of God and Faith.

[edit on 10-11-2006 by Ed Littlefox]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
If one of the principal apsects of the bible suggests not to judge a man by his journey, but by his destination. Frankly it says DO NOT JUDGE!

FRANKLY YOU MAY BE WRONG.

The bible says:
Judge not, lest thee be judged!

What bible are you reading from?

Ye without sin cast the first stone! Getting my drift I hope. So, why does this countrys political agenda deal with Gay marriage and abortion?

Um, because they are disregarding the teachings.

Don't the christians think that this is judgemental and casting stone to circumstances they don't fully understand?

Well, they are ignorant of truth. They have their own twisted agenda. They pass judgment on the blind for being blind while they are blind themselves and leading the blind in a direction that none of the blind can even see.

When they say in their "I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU" tone: "It is a choice!".

The only thing they are really saying is that they know it is a choice because the only way they are justified in saying it is a choice is if they themselves at one time or another looked at a person of the same sex and thought "Wonder what that would be like?". So, they had to either choose to act on their homosexual urges one way or the other. Either way, the only way they are right about it being a choice is if they had to make the choice themselves. If not, then you are right, they do not know what they are talking about. But, if they were christians in practice more so than christians in politics and lies, then you would be justified in calling them christians, which they are not.

My point is, Bush is in power because he knew this much and made it an issue. But my question is why is it an issue? Isn't it a bit hypocritical?

It is an issue because money from lobbiest dictates policy of america, not the voters of the people. America is becoming a failed experiment. Case in point that God was offended is when the CENTER OF WHERE THE WORLD WAS TRADED Fell.

Edited to add:

i would like everyone to know i came out of the closet! and i am still straight!


[edit on 10-11-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
If one of the principal apsects of the bible suggests not to judge a man by his journey, but by his destination. Frankly it says DO NOT JUDGE! Ye without sin cast the first stone! Getting my drift I hope. So, why does this countrys political agenda deal with Gay marriage and abortion? Don't the christians think that this is judgemental and casting stone to circumstances they don't fully understand? My point is, Bush is in power because he knew this much and made it an issue. But my question is why is it an issue? Isn't it a bit hypocritical?

My friends, as Esoteric Teacher I stand before you naked armed only with the truth..
John 5:22
The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son

While you seek to be filled you forget you are already over-filling..

And Who is the Son?... LOVE... The acceptance and understanding of all things..
Love shall judge you...

It is I who shall cast thy first stones...
2nd Cor. 3:5-6
Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Phil. 2:6-8
|Christ|, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

Rom. 11:29
God's gifts and his call are irrevocable

We are divine, we have right to cast stone, if we are new everyday... if we are renewed everyday in LOVE, the acceptance and understanding of all things Christ.

Let no man resurrect your evils, just to keep you oppressed, for you are a new creation.

2nd Cor. 5:17
Therefore if any man [be] in
Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away;
behold, all things are become new. [5:18] And all things
[are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus
Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

[edit on 11/11/2006 by PuRe EnErGy]