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Tooth item / relic not a deer antler!

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posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 02:27 AM
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My name is William L. McDonald and I am the forensics investigator who documented massive slide tracks frozen along a Loch Ness shoreline in December of 2004. I’m also the expert best-selling author Steve Alten hired as a consultant when he wrote his thriller, The LOCH. Months before the novel debuted, two American college students and a local Scottish boat owner tracked me down because they discovered what appears to be a
4-inch barbed tooth in a half-eaten deer carcass found along a Loch Ness shoreline dubbed by locals as a “kill zone.” For months I have continued to work with researchers to investigate these matters while uninformed bloggers have called this tooth everything from an antler to a crab claw. Now I have the proof that exonerates these two students and their claims, and confirms my own theories, shared by experts around the world:

1. Based on the photographic evidence, several experts have come forward and have identified the object as a tooth belonging to a member of the Anguillaform eel family. These experts include an oceanographic researcher (Michael Wade) “this is undoubtedly a tooth, I have seen matching teeth in specimens of eel…”, a nother researcher at a Florida Science Museum, and at least three professional fishermen who have landed large deepwater eels.
2. In an effort to confirm these findings, Tsunami Books, publisher of The LOCH, offered a $10,000 bounty to fishermen to land a specimen with matching teeth. Photos of the matching teeth have now been posted on www.TheLOCH.com and my website www.AlienUFOart.com
3. Museum experts have taken a replica of the tooth (confiscated by the Highland Authorities, an act later confirmed by a member of the police force), and have enlarged an eel skull. The palate teeth are a near-perfect match. Photos of this replica, which measures almost 7 feet in length, can be found at www.TheLoch.com

The new evidence supports my theories about the Loch Ness Monster being a 60-foot deepwater species of eel, the same theory woven into Steve Alten’s thriller and reported by both Roy Mackel and renown cryptozoologist Richard Freeman. Until the 4-inch tooth is returned, there will always be skeptics. It is understandable that the Highland Authorities would hesitate to release evidence of the monster being a deepwater species of eel as said species avoids sunlight (sensitive eyes) and thus is nearly impossible to photograph. The Highlanders have financed their own romantic notion of “Nessie” as a prehistoric air-breathing marine reptile (plesiosaur) and this notion feeds their tourism industry. It will be interesting to see which of these theories Robert Rines’ newly-discovered DNA evidence matches. There is also a working theory that global warming has affected salmon migration, affecting the feeding habits of Loch Ness’s largest inhabitant. If so, expect to see more evidence of our slippery friend. I can be reached at my e-mail address: bill_kia@hotmail.com


[edit on 17-10-2005 by John bull 1]




posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by LochNessTooth
2. In an effort to confirm these findings, Tsunami Books, publisher of The LOCH, offered a $10,000 bounty to fishermen to land a specimen with matching teeth. Photos of the matching teeth have now been posted on www.TheLOCH.com and my website www.AlienUFOart.com
3. Museum experts have taken a replica of the tooth (confiscated by the Highland Authorities, an act later confirmed by a member of the police force), and have enlarged an eel skull. The palate teeth are a near-perfect match. Photos of this replica, which measures almost 7 feet in length, can be found at www.TheLoch.com


Sir, I visited both sites, and on neither of them did I find any examples of eel teeth. You want to sell me a book to see the comparisons? Maybe I don't speak for everyone here at ATS, but I think that the general feeling is that we shouldn't be paying to see the truth. I didn't find any photos of any replicas or any teeth (other than the "Loch Ness Tooth") on the sites. If I'm missing them, my apologies - please point me in the right direction.

If there is none - this is good marketing, but it will probably fail here at ATS.


Originally posted by LochNessTooth
The new evidence supports my theories about the Loch Ness Monster being a 60-foot deepwater species of eel, the same theory woven into Steve Alten’s thriller and reported by both Roy Mackel and renown cryptozoologist Richard Freeman. Until the 4-inch tooth is returned, there will always be skeptics. It is understandable that the Highland Authorities would hesitate to release evidence of the monster being a deepwater species of eel as said species avoids sunlight (sensitive eyes) and thus is nearly impossible to photograph.

I'm open to believe that it is a giant eel. I don't have any problems with that theory, and I'm glad that you joined this site. I'm sure you'll have to answer many, many questions and this will turn out to be a very interesting thread. Good luck with all the sceptics! Rather you than me!


Here's my question: If it was a eel species that avoids sunlight, how and why would it hunt prey on the outside of the water in clear light? And why would it feed on the prey on the outside of the water AND leave the carcass there?



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 03:12 AM
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I found this on the www.TheLoch.com site on their own message board - which supports what I suspected:

The message




get very p*ssed off when I receive spam. I find it very interesting that "The Loch" needs to SPAM in order to get sales. Tells you something about the book. Out of principle I WILL NOT pay these people one cent of my money.


And a reply on that:



Got an email from:
yutz@dbzmail.com



YUTZ indeed!



These people are stooping LOW to spam to fish sales based on an OBVIOUSLY staged video - anyone who watches the video and buys a book from these YUTZ's needs a good head examination.



Is there really people on this planet THIS gullible?



Anyone interested in shutting this SCAM down?



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 06:02 AM
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Mr McDonald has posted this message on other forums as well.

I'm still waiting for his explanation as to why the photos acompanying the original story were not taken on Loch Ness.....



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 07:05 AM
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I smell a troll,

A carnivorous eel?



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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tick..tick..tick..tick..tick..tick..tick..tick..tick..



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 09:12 AM
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A carnivorous eel?


Thats what i thought, but apparently they do exist.

lamington.nrsm.uq.edu.au...



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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hmm... i can't find a picture of the tooth on either site also...

i smell



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 09:40 AM
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If anyone’s interested i found the pictures and movie

www.lochnesstooth.com...

neither of which i could find on either of the sites given in the first post.



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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has anyone else found any credentials on mr. macdonald? ive looked a bit (not too hard) but havent come up with much. im still lead to believe that this is a 'clever' marketing scheme...



posted on Oct, 14 2005 @ 11:07 PM
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Mr. MacDonald has posted here before under 2 seperate accounts that I know of. This is the third one. He was banned previously.

Several months ago, the 'students' posted their story here, and asked for help locating Mr. MacDonald. Mr. MacDonald became a member shortly thereafter and responded to the thread.

The thread went to the Trash Bin quite quickly and this is when he was originally banned.

I'm sure he will be re-banned rather quickly. I seem to recall the mods don't like it if you create a new account after they have banned you.



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 04:55 AM
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Bill McDonald here. Thanks for replying. I understand the concerns. I'm happy to respond.

I'd like to make several things clear:

I'm an old-fashioned "Gumshoe" private detective--Not a paleontologist, ichthyologist or other ocean scientist--Investigating a case which was brought to me specifically because of my radio show appearances and my family's association with several authors, including Steve Alten. "Nessie" witnesses who are residents of Inverness-Shire were referred to me via relatives of theirs who served in DESERT SHIELD & DESERT STORM (The first Gulf War in 1991 and 1992, and who met me in Qatar, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia. These relatives served in the armed forces of the United Kingdom. Others came to me because I was the forensic illustrator on the Loch Ness Monster segment of the old Paramount Television series "Sightings" in 1993 &'94. I worked with them for their first three seasons and contributed to their arch rival "Encounters" on FOX. I'm also the artist who brought the two Roswell UFO model kits to the Testor Corporation in 1995 - 1999. I also did the spaceships for the SHOWTIME/Viacom movie "Roswell" in '93-'94.

Steve Alten is my personal friend and has been a true friend to my family for years. He and Tsunami licensed my "Improvements" on the theories begun by the late Dr. Roy P. Machal, Professor Robert Rines, and Freeman, because of the Anguilla and Conger eels I kept as pets in my personal aquariums and the koi pond I maintained at my home of record in southern California while I was growing up. Those theories are expressed in "The Loch." I also had California Morays and a number of crocodilians including South American Caimans as pets. I maintained professional salt & fresh water aquariums and managed the fish rooms for the old Russos' pet chain in Orange County, California from 1978 to 1981.

I have no financial or personal intrest in the sales of "The Loch." Tsunami paid for my December 2004 trip to Loch Ness and licensed my sketches and theory points as a direct fee. I hope Steve's book does well because he is my friend.

Tsunami has published my own non-fiction writings on the Loch Ness investigation as an e-book. It's a first draft of what may become something more complex, if the tooth case and my other investigative probes yield posative results.

The two college boys on Spring Break who are my witnesses are now busting their backsides in law school. They have honor codes in those law schools, the same way officer candidate schools have in the military. If an association with a hoax or an unproven claim were made with the two witnesses, they could be dismissed from their studies. If their identities got out or if we were in any way implicated in a hoax, their families would face catastrophic losses to their finances, legacies and business reputations. Their fathers are major policy makers in their home states and in D.C. The grandfather of one served in Congress.

I am in personal possession of the original 35 mm negatives of the Loch Ness Tooth and the deer carcass. Also the Mini DV tape. They are in a very protected location.

The carcass is clearly that of a cervid (Deer). It is a female with no antlers. As an elk, the small Highland Red Deer hind (Female) weighs in at around 350 to 380 pounds.

That "Tooth" is clearly one of two possible things--It could be an artistic fabrication, an "In-camera" hand-made, hoaxed, item--Made by a real genius; or, it is an actual biological substance, secreted or grown, made of a substance like chitin; as several West Coast and Desert Southwest museum curators have surmized to me in private.

I am certain my two "Boys" had no hand in any fabrications. They and their families have way too much to lose.

A fishing contest heralded in the news media yielded a plethora of detailed photos of eel smiles. An Atlantic-Gulf of Mexico Gymnothorax green moray's teeth most closely match the configurationa and color patterns of the Loch Ness Tooth. Tiny teeth in the Anguillas also exhibits the super sharp barbs. The crusher teeth from the local population of conger eels of Plymouth England did not match the configuration of the Loch Ness Tooth.

Marine ichthyologists from San Diego confirmed that the super sharp barbs extruding from the tip of the Loch Ness Tooth and along it's distal surface have only been seen in the spear-tips / sucker hooks of mollusks (Predatory snails & Archeteuthis squids) and in some Anguilliforme eels. Nothing else in nature produces a point of that sharpness except for some shark and Pirahna teeth. NOTE: All fish teeth evolved from fish scales.

No deer antler, not even that from the small feral asiatic Reeves Muntjac which the English sometimes call a "Roe deer," is able to produce barbs of excessive sharpness in the deciduous aerated bone which is the material from which cervid antlers grow.

The location of the photographs is very recognizable to any native-born Loch Ness local. The boulders, the moss and the oaks in the shoreline shots are clearly identical to the landscapes I visited back in 1993 and 1989 on the Glendoe shoreline of Loch Ness. To the SW is Fort August and to the NE is Foyers with it's hydroelectric power station. The location is a well-known "fishing hole" to local anglers and the fact that I found it myself is a real pisser to some of them. The fishing hole's location is where a waterfall runs off the mountain, between the Horseshoe Craig (Rocky Crag) and the Craig Corrie.

As some have pointed out, I've had to answer to the moderators and owners of this forum. I change identities simply because I change computers and travel alot and do not always remember my passwords. Blogs and discussion forums is how I pass time away from my family and away from the hotel or motel bars. I make no secret that I am forensic illustrator and PI Bill McDonald. ATS has been a useful tool for me as a detective in locating and staying in touch with contacts and the status of certain UFO, cryptozoology and special access programs subjects.

As I shared with folks from the BBC:

Regarding the famous Loch Ness Tooth:

I've spent three extensive periods of time in Inverness-Shire since 1993 and have carefully applied my interview and undercover skills as a detective and I am convinced that the town fathers of the Loch-Side Towns and the hard-working professionals who maintain and repair the infrastructure of the Loch-Side Towns such as the electricians, the waste management engineers, the power and water people, and the fisheries people who have true knowledge of the fish that are the true premiere animal predators in Loch Ness. I have personally located the critical fishing holes (So highly prized by resident fishermen and Scottish Regiment retirees) where the waterfall from run-off originating in the general vicinity of Loch Tarff drops into Loch Ness along the Glendoe shoreline between Craig Corrie and the Horseshoe Craig. And the associated "Kill Zone" amongst the mossy boulders and knarled oaks where I have personally collected crushed and splintered Cervid (Deer) and sheep bones which look like they have been through a mortician's pulverizer. The shoreline in the photos of the red deer hind's torn carcass appears to be in the same area.

I have targeted the Hydro-electric power station at Foyers and the salmon fish farm as an area of interest, especially because of the testimonies I have personally collected from their engineers and maintenance personnel who like to party in the days leading to the Christmas holidays.

I do not go to Loch Ness with words like "Nessie" and "Monster" in my vocabulary. I go with discussions of my true interest in the search for prehistoric and once-thought lost species of known species and genus of fishes, such as Genus Amia, the bowfin aka mudfish, which is in the fossil beds of northern Scotland but has not been seen alive in 100 million years. These fish continue to survive in the waters of Minnesota, Arizona, Kansas, Michigan, and Wisconsin here in the States--Amia calva is alive and well and is a living fossil like the Coelacanth of Madagascar and South Africa. I follow all leads regarding large sturgeons and the occasional conger eel which find themselves lost and wandering up the River Ness or the Caledonian Canal.

The Loch-Side locals who repair power lines and transformers for a living respond with tales of "Ferox trout" and "Eel infestations" (Regarding catadromous Anguillas) including tales of exceptionally large chunks of fish cross-section diced up inside the twin monster turbine blades of the Foyers Power Station when power is applied to back-flush the system. I've taken a thirteen-foot dory into the outflow areas of the turbines and have extensively photographed the heavy-gage armored steel screen meshes which block access into the outflows (from penetration) by any biological, including human divers. My measurements of the speeds and rates of the currents in those outflows leads me to wonder why anyone would go to that expense with currents so strong that a pod of whales or a navy gunboat would have trouble negotiating those currents. The steel gage could stop a rampaging elephant or deflect a sperm whale!

Our experts are convinced that if the Loch Ness Tooth item / relic is real and not a hoax, then it is a tooth from an Osteichthys Teleost Anguilliforme eel. The tooth is very similar to Genus Gymnothorax--The Atlantic Green Moray eel. I think that it is a genetic throw-back or a descendant species of the original founding Cretaceous species of Anguilliforme that was the origins of such generas as Anguilla, Conger & Gymnothorax. Such species diversified in the last 2.5 million years with the onset of the eleven ice ages when the central American land bridge arose, creating the global conveyor system of north-south currents and ended the ancient, planet girdling global equatorial current processions. Nessie probably exhibits a cross section of traits from all these fish within this family of related species.

If the fact that I am a "Gumshoe" instead of a lettered marine zoologist offends anyone, I ask, how many of those scientists or critics of mine can draw the various versions of "Nessie" as well as I do? While others write dry reports of investigations (ROIs), I can illustrate my results! Just look my renderings in the UFO community.

And how many of these folks kept mini "Nessies" in their aquariums? I owned three Anguillas, one conger which I successfully converted to fresh water, three Gymnothorax morays, and four electric eels, one of which cleared six feet in length (Yes, several Welsh marine biologists accused me of lying--But ask any of my friends in Laguna Beach about that eel--A neighbor's dog killed it while it hunted in the garden one night). FYI: Electric eels are not eels at all. Their closest relatives are knifefish and both carps and cats share some relation.

My eels duplicated many of the "Nessie" behaviors described by the locals, both in the water and on dry land. True "Nessie" sightings happen at night.



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 05:34 PM
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Ehm now first off ill come clean and say ive never looked an eel in the mouth.. mostly since there are none or very few eels where im usually fishing.. that said my grandfather hunts alot and have many horns/antlers.. and there are a few that are very straight and quite short.. usually reffered to as killer bucks..

Im not saying that this is what this is but it sure looks pretty similar to an antler.



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 05:43 PM
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Anyone who mentions $$, be it new age, aliens, animals, metapyhsicians, I am at to the end of my rope concerning any money-mongers.
Never spent on it and never will.



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 06:28 PM
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I'd be curious as to what you think of this, Mr. Mcdonald:

In reality, the entire story was part of a publicity stunt to promote Steve Alten's new book, The


So what is your connection to Alten exactly? Apparently the basic idea of the book is that its something like an eel, (Anguilla anguilla), that was trapped in the loch after road construction and, becuase of this, never spawned in its spawning grounds and thus grew to monstrous size. But that tooth isn't an aguillid eels tooth, and these eels simply don't become that big merely because they've not spawned. Anguilla anguilla apparently does exist in various rivers and lochs of scotland.

Also, we'd really prefer it if you didn't cut and paste posts from other forum's that you've made and put them here.

Also, who is 'Chuck Jones'? And why does he think that an order of the Knights Templar, the Black Knights, are keeping the indentity of the beastie secret?

This is an anguiliform eel

These are their teeth types:


Also, did you or anyone else involved in the book and video post in this other forum under the name "Erratic"??



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by LochNessTooth
Our experts are convinced that if the Loch Ness Tooth item / relic is real and not a hoax, then it is a tooth from an Osteichthys Teleost Anguilliforme eel. The tooth is very similar to Genus Gymnothorax--The Atlantic Green Moray eel

What the deuce? What experts are saying that??

Gymnothorax javanicus


None of these teeth look at all like this mutli-barbed thing:


And, as I think was pointed out in the original thread, the base of the 'tooth' is absolutely nothing like any tooth.



posted on Oct, 16 2005 @ 07:22 PM
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Howdy folks...

This so called "tooth" is no more than a Muntjak antler...




LochNessTooth...

You're wasting your time and money on this, it's no more than an antler...



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 03:21 AM
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Bill here.

I am not now, nor have I ever operated under the "Handle" --> "Erratic."

My connection to Steve Alten is published in the Acknowledgements of four of his seven current published sci-fi action adventure novels. I've been his vett editor, reviewing his manuscripts for scientific and historical content. And I have provided illustrations for those four novels. The cover art for the paperback version of"Goliath" incorporates some of my work. As I said before, above and beyond the creative contributions to Steve's intellectual properties, I am his friend.

I side-step arguements regarding commercial or financial transactions for the simple reason that I would have to dump my hobbies and talents for a regular job if I could not earn some sort of fair, equitable and modest income for my time spent investigating, rendering, or being a knowledge bank for folks like Steve and many of my other clients. I have two young sons, a wife, a mortgage, and two baby grand-daughters (By marriage) to support.

I promise that I have no involvement in nor have I created or otherwise generated ANY publicity stunts for Steve Alten or on behalf of "The Loch."

Regarding the Templar thing, Steve latched on to that from a comment made in jest by a third party long before I contacted them for travel funds to Inverness-Shire. After they had read my December 2004 ROI from Inverness-Shire where I stated in my conclusions that it is my opinion that there is a "Tradition of Conservation bordering on time-honored conspiracy" regarding the identification of the family of related species that is "Nessie" amongst the "Town fathers" of the Loch-Side towns; they all expressed a higher degree of comfort regarding the Templar story line. The book was always intended as a work of fiction and the Templar story line was a special inspiration which for all intents and purposes came from Steve Alten.

Gymnothorax javanicus is a Pacific-Indian Ocean species but is included in the Anguilliforme eel suborder. Some Atlantic Gymnothorax species have the more pronounced barbs as do some unique individuals within larger populations of Anguillas and Congers.

Why a deer antler is the number one conjecture instead of a hoaxed item, I'll never know. NO DEER ANTLER CAN POSSIBLY ACHIEVE BARB GROWTH OF THAT SHARPNESS--No amount of stomach acids or other immersion processes will cause barbs of that sharpness from deciduous bone! Barbs as sharp as that can only be found in mollusk hooks and in some fish teeth.
While the general configuration of the Muntjac antler is similar, they extrude the formations of tiny nodules both singly and in clusters, especially down towards the base near the roots.

My fish experts doubted the hoaxed item theory because fakers and Hollywood artists tend to associate root prongs with dinosaur, dragon, and other monster teeth. Root prongs are expected in crocodilians and multiple root prongs are the norm in mammals. The experts point out that fish teeth such as sharks and even teleost bony fishes are designed to be grown, used and shed, through-out their lives, and to be replaced. Instead of root prongs, fish teeth made of chitin exhibit ridged keels and keratinaceous formations that create a temporary anchorage within the bone. Our jury of experts noted the Loch Ness Tooth exhibits some sort of single or dual ridged keel formation and also seems to have soft tissue or fatty tissue from the deer snagged into it's base.

Our jury of experts doubt that fakers would have this level of knowledge regarding fish versus reptile dentition root structures and therefore the tooth would have been a dead give-a-way as a hoax. But this was not what happened. And this is why the rewards were authorized by our team's patrons to create an incentive in northern Scotland to recover the tooth, which for all intents and purposes is stolen property.

As for the theories of how Anguilla anguilla, Conger conger, and Anguilla rostrata can become a monster, I worked on that for years based upon anecdotal information provided by fishermen, marine researchers and teleost experts. Most females enter estrous and the instinct to return to the ocean and follow the currents back to the Sargasso Sea kicks in. If the female fish is prevented from breeding, their bones are supposed to demineralize, their teeth all shed, and they starve to death or are eaten by predators. However, every once in a while, one-in-a-million, a special female with a more ancient encoded genetic lineage survives the ordeal to grow large, into a fast-growing, ravenous, "Eunuch-form" growth stage. If that animal exceeds sixteen to twenty feet, it becomes a "Guivre-Stage" superpredator, as described in the medieval literature of France, Skandinavia, and other European countries.

Meanwhile, out in the open ocean, shoals containing undescribed large species of Anguilliformes might cruise the depths and a rare individual of excessive size may wander in from the sea to become misdirected into the freshwater lake systems. In Loch Ness, there is or was the hypotheses regarding underwater passages. These may be the origins of the "Bloops" which the Navy's SOSUS system occasionally records.

Prehistoric throw-backs to the primogen of Cretaceous Anguilliformes may also exist.

I'll be following these hypotheses for years to come, long after the moderators kill off this thread.

Bill



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 05:49 AM
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I promise that I have no involvement in nor have I created or otherwise generated ANY publicity stunts for Steve Alten or on behalf of "The Loch."


Then why, Sir, do you make a post making these statements about eel teeth with a Link to THE LOCH...? And when you visit the given site there are NO illustrations or valid proof that it is in fact an eel's tooth? Basically the only thing you can do on the given site is buy THE BOOK!? Now, if that is not marketing, then I don't know what is!
Where is the proof for your claims? Above you can see many illustrations members give to support their theories. Yet, all you give us is words, and more words. Anyone can do that. You'll have to give a bit more than that to support your claims, don't you think?



posted on Oct, 17 2005 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by LochNessTooth
Our jury of experts noted the Loch Ness Tooth exhibits some sort of single or dual ridged keel formation and also seems to have soft tissue or fatty tissue from the deer snagged into it's base.

But this is based on a photo, not on the actual specimin. What experts are reporting this?


And this is why the rewards were authorized by our team's patrons

See the thing with the rewards was that it lended credibility, it seemed to be saying that the independent experts, zoologists/biologists, wanted to see the tooth, but now its being offered by the peopel making the book? That doesn't lend to the credibility, to say the least.

a special female with a more ancient encoded genetic lineage

Why are you postulating that its got a more 'ancient genetic lineage'???


Prehistoric throw-backs to the primogen of Cretaceous Anguilliformes may also exist.

What cretacous eels are anything like this, of this size?

Here's an interesting page on the 'eel hypothesis'
www.monstertracker.com...


long after the moderators kill off this thread

Why the hostility? None of us care if tourism in loch ness crawls to a standstill because of fears of man-eating eels, we have no interest here other than that our members not be hoaxed and spammed.


gemwolf
Yet, all you give us is words, and more words

Indeed, I'd like to see some details of eel teeth, both in the jaw and out of it, since its claimed that the tooth clearly resembles an eel tooth. I'm certainly not familiar enough with the structure of their teeth to be able to say that its immpossible, and indeed some animals that capture and eat fish do have 'loosely socketed' teeth. Tho I personally haven't seen any that are attached in the way that the above item is supposed to be attached.
The very fact that its claimed to be an eel tooth, and then no representations of eel teeth are presented, is sloppy, if not suspicious.

[edit on 17-10-2005 by Nygdan]




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