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A Step back to the Dark Ages for the RCC

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posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 08:29 AM
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Once again the Vatican is proving itself unable to enter the 21st Century and still longs for the Dark Ages. Today was the first day of school at the Vatican for students who want to become demonologists and exorcists.
They are teaching the 120 priests how to identify a demonic possession versus a psychological issue.
How does a person know categorically that a person has been possessed you may ask. Well according to one of the lecturers, Father Gabriele Nanni a real life excorsist, there are 4 sure signs that will positively identify a person as being the victim of possession instead of it just being psychological problem:




"When someone speaks or understands languages they normally do not; when their physical strength is disproportionate to their body size or age; when they are suddenly knowledgeable about occult practices; when they have a physical aversion to sacred things, such as the communion host or prayers."


How do you rid a demon that is possessing someone? That is easy, look at the formula that theses students are being taught:



It starts with prayers, a blessing and sprinkling of holy water, the laying on of hands on the possessed, and the making of the sign of the cross.


And that is from the updated ritual that the Vatican authorized back in 1999.

First day of school for aspiring Vatican exorcists

What century are these guys living in? And they wonder why the RCC is losing so many members.




posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 08:49 AM
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I'd rather be sprinkled with holy water than sprinkled with prozac or ritalin. And if the problems persist, well your pharmacist won't judge you for going to a priest. Where's the problem?

Saying people who's views or ideas differ to yours are in the Dark Ages is usually kept for discussions about the middle east, but this is no less immature or uncalled for. If they're trying to teach YOU this, then by all means complain, but if they are teaching to themselves, and not teaching anything that will ever affect you in your life, then why feel the need to moan.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:10 AM
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I think that the point is that they're literally living in the age of superstition and fear, like in the Dark Ages. Whats next, remedies for 'stepping on a crack and breaking your mother's back'? Or is the church going to start insisting that good catholic women dress very conservatively and not try to look pretty so as to avoid the evil eye, again?

True enough tho, the RCC isn't the only religion that pushes this whole Demonic Posession thing.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:26 AM
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right on therre nygdan,
you hit what i was aiming at.
yes, the rcc is not the only one that is promoting the demonic possession issue, they are only the latest in updating the "cause".
I remember right after the Exorcist movie how much the rcc went out of it's way to separate itself from the beleif in demonic possession upto and including expelling an order of exorcists. Which lead to the large number of "maverick, renegade, defrocked" preists who performed hundreds of exorcisms back in the 70's and 80's which of course lead to a few deaths.
I am not picking on the rcc here although they seem to be doing everything they can to undermine their powerbase of faith.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:26 AM
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from kenshiro's link

When someone speaks or understands languages they normally do not....

suddenly knowledgeable about occult practices


Is there a natural (psychological) explaination for comprehending unknown languages or (unknown?) occult practices?

I can see how the other 'conditions' they list like; unusual strength or " physical aversion to sacred things" could be the result of a psychological issue...but if someone starts "speaking in tongues" (which they have no previous knowledge of) i would have a hard time finding a medical diagnosis to explain it, no?

[edit on 13-10-2005 by Rren]



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:33 AM
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I'd have to question whether anyone has even been convincingly shown to suddenly understand a language that they formerly didn't. It would be unusual. But why expect supernatural demons to have to conform to natural investigations?


kenshiro
which of course lead to a few deaths.

That 'emily rose' movie seems to focus on that. Also, recently, some Orthodox Church preists killed an Orthodox nun while performing an exorcism, and of course stuff like Faith Healing and the like are superstituions that fall into this class also.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:34 AM
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But living in and age of "superstition and fear" could be applied to probably every one of us. The fact is, what they are doing is perfectly normal to them, and unless they effect us with these beliefs then it is doing no harm to anyone.

There's not much difference between this topic and one that says "How can people still believe in a God, how backwards and stuck in the dark ages is that?"
And let's be honest, it acheives nothing other than provoking christians into agitated usueless responses like this.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:36 AM
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Uh, tongues? You mean "ble ble bla bla ble bla bla ble ble bla" while they shake on the ground, sounds like a seizure to me.

Yep definately Dark Ages, hey, Bush is a saint according to their rules, he says God talks to him and tells him to kill people, automatic sainthood.(Of course we call that being a crazy person, but church says they are saints)

Edit: So when do they learn the Earth is flat? Or that angels push the sun/planets around the Earth?

[edit on 13-10-2005 by Full Metal]



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:44 AM
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I don't think Kenshiro's statement can be classed in the 'ignorant judgments presented as facts yet sired by skewed and dysfunctional mind-sets best left at home' category. There are times that even to the most open-minded observer something that is truly an enlightened statement of logical discernment looks exactly like an ignorantly formed condemnation or prejudice, but when more facts are considered, along with the person's normal disposition and perspective, that it is shown to be otherwise.

In this case there are a few points which might clarify, since I agree with Kenshiro but do try to avoid condemning other people's religious attachments unless they are imposing them upon others --in which case I would be jumping on Kenshiro myself


The reference to the dark ages is very apt, IMO--because the facts that history presents us with shouldn't be overlooked as a profound lesson for all of mankind regarding how superstition and ignorance promoted under the banner of 'goodness' and 'God' is actually the complete opposite--for the simple fact that death and violence are the ultimate outcomes.

The dark ages, as most readers might know, was directly the result of the Catholic Church's extreme attempts to maintain distance between the laity and the bible. There is no denying that there were extreme and official measures carried out that essentially said that if a regular person (laity) was caught with any bible or scripture book that was written in a language they could understand, they would be severely punished, or even burned at the stake as well as bearing the additional condemnation from God resulting from excommunication by the church.

These things can be verified by reading up on some of the documentation of the councils and Papal decrees of those days. A good on-line source is the Fordham Ancient History Sourcebook (ironically enough I believe Fordham is administered by Jesuits!)

They did everything they could to keep people in the dark. Literally. And yet their hold on the world was only loosened--any many choose to overlook something that I personally consider on the inhumanity scale (of severity not quantity) to be comparable to the genocides at the hands of various despots and the annhiliation of the American Indian.

And now--they are publishing an official document under the auspices of being approved by God (by virtue of the pope) that says a sign of demon possession is

when their physical strength is disproportionate to their body size or age;


Now, if it was truly limited to sprinkling a little salty water on a person and reciting some approved litany on their behalf--I'd say more power to them--I agree such a thing is far better than prozac and all the other sources of potential chemical ruination which can become irreversible in their destruction.

BUT, this has already been demonstrated to be an unreliable expectation--I don't know about here in the states, but I do know there are factual documented cases of deaths at the hands of the Russian Orthodox Chruch, and I'm thinking perhaps Romania, but I'm not sure, don't depend on what I say, look it up. There are news stories available in a myriad of reliable places.

And while all the world is not Russia, these things have happened even in this last year, and Russia is no longer the Soviet Union--if it could happen there it will happen elsewhere.

And the victim might simply be someone who has a disorder related to HGH (human growth hormone) and maybe is 7'3" and a veritable giant at the age of 13 years old. This happens. It has nothing to do with spiritual hijacking--it is an endocrine disorder.

From my Pov, that kind of possibilitysouns like something we should only see in the history books (if we have to at all).


There are snares in every era--something I perceive as not necessarily a good thing is the politically correct viewpoint of our current times--which takes the negative and wrong kind of judgment (condemnation) out of the picture (which is beneficial and true) but takes discernment with it, too; making it unacceptable in the eyes of many people to exercise responsibility toward each other and ourselves, instead of letting all the ends and frays fly loose as they may, as long as no one is stepping on the toes of another. One extreme
is just as bad as another.

One thing I believe to be always right and always good--that is remaining mindful of those around us as being of the same composition as ourselves and having as much (or more) concern and respect for their happiness and freedom as we do ourselves. If something is not necessary for the good of the people yet is done in the name of good and causes harm to individuals--it
behooves us as human beings to point it out, speak rationally against it and do what is necessary to keep it from becoming an accepted practice.

This is a soapbox I will always make full use of. I believe that we all must make changes in the immediate future toward self-government and true brotherly love on a world wide basis or we're all going to be in the hell we ourselves create. The forces of the cosmos (whatever they may be) are beginning to shift the energies that govern our reality. No matter what we each perceive as far as religion and/or spirituality, many understand that there is a change coming for all of us. We cannot look the other way and let the darkness rob of us of the progress we've made as the human race!



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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Nygdan

I'd have to question whether anyone has even been convincingly shown to suddenly understand a language that they formerly didn't. It would be unusual.


Yeah i agree, my comment was intented as a question. I've heard the stories, as i'm sure we all have, but i wasn't sure if such an occurance had ever been (scientifically) substantiated.



But why expect supernatural demons to have to conform to natural investigations?


Good point.




Originally posted by Full Metal
Uh, tongues? You mean "ble ble bla bla ble bla bla ble ble bla" while they shake, sounds like a sezure seizure to me.


No, i mean like someone spouting off in ancient hebrew or latin or some-such. And i doubt Bush says that GOD talks to him and "tells him to kill people" and that has nothing to do with sainthood, your bigotry is irrelevant. Not saying i agree with the RCC teaching exorcism, i don't known (read: understand) enough about it to make an informed decision and judging by your torrets style "Bush sucks" commentary i doubt you do either.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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Glossolalia is the term used by rcc for speaking in tongues.
Wiki Definition

One note, is that this same effect is also associated with hysteria as well as schizophrenia.

Note that in both cases listed above, a person suffering from either both will / can
exhibit "in"human strength
facial body distortions
strange vocalizations Glossolalia
the phsycosis (spell) an also make a victim shy away from things that mean alot to them. If the person was of a religious background then yes, they may be unable (if they even recognize them) turn away from religious icons / preists etc.

I myself suffer from Gran Mal Epilespsy and if you do a quick search you will find that many times the rcc determined that epileptics were possesed as well as the psychological community stating that we needed to be kept in insane asylums etc.
The last time that I suffered a siezure, I made all kinds of various noises, my face was contorted, I was able to throw off three very large orderlies. All this was reported to me once I regained my senses. Under Father Gabriele Nanni definitions of determining demonic posession, I scored 3 out of 4. the 4th was not entered into the equation at the time.


Last time I checked though, I have no demons controlling me (although this may be challenged by other ATS'ers
)



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Rren


Is there a natural (psychological) explaination for comprehending unknown languages or (unknown?) occult practices?

The word 'occult' literally and truly means 'hidden.' Nothing more or less. It has been bastardized into meaning things of a non-Godly orientation. Yet if one reads the bible carefully, it plainly states that the things of God are what is hidden in this world--not the things of Satan. From that standpoint that part of the document is an obvious testament in support of the recommendation it be thrown in the trash.

How can someone understand 'hidden' things? I can tell you something from my own experience--I can't tell you how these things are known, but after the last few years of my own life I can say with complete honesty that it is not impossible to have sudden and unexpected clarity come into your mind--things that truly would be impossible to know. I don't mean things like the kind of thing that passes for prophesy and spiritual insight related to all the stuff going on in the world--and it's not of a psychic nature. I'd have to call it mystical but it's about things like physics and the fundamental laws that keep the cosmos together--it's about things such as the illusion of death and the spiritual evolution of all of humanity...
It's like what the guy who sits on the mountain knows. If you get my drift.

As far as speaking other languages and all that--I can't see any legitimate explanation to support sudden babbling--and I've honestly never heard of anyone suddenly being able to speak Italian fluently who has never left their hometown in the USA. It might have happened, but I've never heard of it. Most of this I would think refers to the 'tongue' thing going on in religious circles. It's just hysteria, IMO--and still isn't cause for exorcism.

On a lighter note, though--one possibility is to take the exorcists to all the charismatic assemblies and churches--that would keep them occupied! Killing two birds with one stone.


JUST KIDDING!





I can see how the other 'conditions' they list like; unusual strength or " physical aversion to sacred things" could be the result of a psychological issue...but if someone starts "speaking in tongues" (which they have no previous knowledge of) i would have a hard time finding a medical diagnosis to explain it, no?
Unusual strength and any physical type of thing is out of their range of diagnosis--because medical conditions are vast and some are quite rare and strange, yet still totally of a physical origin.

The aversion to 'sacred things' might be simply a direct product of their own influence over the population through the centuries. This is kind of funny and meant only as an example, something that happened a while back. My boyfriend just handed me something one day, being ornery--and I didn't think twice about taking it from his hand--it was a necklace of some sort. I looked at the pendant and it was one of the saint's medals, I forget which one. I gasped and threw it back at him--simply because it totally surprised me and it wasn't like it burned my hand, it just wasn't at all what I had expected. He laughed, because that's why he did it....knowing how I perceive things like that. But what if witnessed by a student of exorcism?
Salem Witch Hunts
2005!

That's a rather enlarged suggestion, but it's worth thinking about. Nothing listed there is a valid judgment of any true authority. It's all about men and religion and it is potentially quite dangerous!



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:20 PM
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I too believe that most, if not all, the cases of demonic possesion are actual mental disorders or other medical problems. I also believe that the Roman Catholic Church is on the whole a swine, more interested in it's own gain and importance than any soul saving.

Exorcism is NOT the way to treat illness, physical or psychological, and thankfully it will never be the norm in our lives. It may be the norm to those at the vatican and those depely connected to the church, but not to us, and because we don't live in the world we did centurys ago, it never will. It will be confined to those who truly believe in it, and I'm sure their number is ever decreasing.

And for that reason, it shouldn't worry us, and certainly shouldn't agitate us. Those being taught will not be knocking down the doors of the mentally ill to thrust crosses in their faces, and if they want to accuse each other of demonic possesion and get into holy water fights, then so be it, I couldn't care less.

As for the deaths......well, that I can't explain. I suppose as many people have died through it as have cutting thier nails....surely exorcism isn't dangerous? Did they put something in the holy water? Curse them? Knock them over the head several times with a large iron crucifix? It's odd that for sure, and I can't fathom how it would happen, but obviously deaths can't be excused. If I knew more about those deaths I'd have an opinion, but until then it doesn't affect my view. What these people teach and learn to themselves, unless dangerous, is purely thier choice, and is as valid and modern as they want it to be.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by chebob
But living in and age of "superstition and fear" could be applied to probably every one of us.

Not necessarily. Maybe a large portion, but I am not a superstitious person at all--and I am basically fearless.

That sounds like I'm bragging--I'm not. I just don't have any unknowns in my life that have the power to make me anxious or stressed in any way--no avoidance mechanisms in order to maintain a quasi-secure state of mind.

I know there are fearless people without superstition right here on this forum, too. It is something that is evident in energies (auras, I guess you'd call them)



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by chebob
But living in and age of "superstition and fear" could be applied to probably every one of us.

Not necessarily. Maybe a large portion, but I am not a superstitious person at all--and I am basically fearless.



And there were quite likely a few in those dark ages who were like you too, although they were probably executed, so be thankful you are alive now and not then


There are lot's of superstitious people still around though, millions, of varying degrees. I'd say I'm quite superstitious, it's just the way I am, but it's never enough to affect important decisions, ever. Exorcists and the like however are what would be considered over superstitious, obviously. But I don't see this as "dark ages", just a quirky eccentricity. If they were still pooing on the floor and throwing rocks at each other, I'd shout "DARK AGES", but while they hold on to principles and beliefs, they are just being human, and I won't see the harm in it unless I see evidence of real danger.

I think the main point of contention is the danger element. you either think it's dangerous or you think it's harmless sillyness. We both agree it's a pointless exercise and not suited to our way of modern thinking, but I don't think it has any possibility for harm, or at least not on enough scale for any of us to be in the slightest bit worried.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:53 PM
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"And i doubt Bush says that GOD talks to him and "tells him to kill people" Rren

HE DOES TO!!!!! Bush has said several times GOD TOLD HIM TO INVADE AFGANISTAN AND IRAQ!!!!!! According to the church God talking to you makes you a saint, therefor Bush is a saint.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by chebob
Exorcism is NOT the way to treat illness, physical or psychological, and thankfully it will never be the norm in our lives. It may be the norm to those at the vatican and those depely connected to the church, but not to us, and because we don't live in the world we did centurys ago, it never will. It will be confined to those who truly believe in it, and I'm sure their number is ever decreasing.

To me it seems that the idea of exorcism is being somewhat revived in these recent years--I've heard far more about it lately than I have in the past--just in general media and discussions.

And for that reason, it shouldn't worry us, and certainly shouldn't agitate us.
Okay, we'll just let it go on until it reaches the point that it either affects us personally or it gets out of hand to the point of another variation on the dark ages. These things are not things confined by some barrier of time passing. We are as human as we were in the 1500's and nothing's really changed but the length of women's skirts. Appearances make it seem we are a different sort than we were then, but underneath we are not any different than we were at any other point in human history--as far as the general disposition of human nature.


As for the deaths......well, that I can't explain. I suppose as many people have died through it as have cutting thier nails....surely exorcism isn't dangerous?
Hemophilia aside, the main difference here is that one chooses to cut their nails and it's just a part of life we all share the risk of. It's not religious or based in spiritual ideations.



Did they put something in the holy water? Curse them? Knock them over the head several times with a large iron crucifix? It's odd that for sure, and I can't fathom how it would happen, but obviously deaths can't be excused.
I don't have time to find a link--got to go to work, but I can tell you from what I remember readingm about the incident in Russia (in a legitimate and reliable news article supported by credible authorities and evidence, as well as the priest's own statements of it being fact) that the young lady was tied to a cross in an imitation of crucifixion, and was starved, burned with fire here and there (not a cigarette, but something similar), she was physically abused somehow--beaten perhaps, kept in the dark, denied water....and the nuns involved as well as the priest refused her begging to be let go, and freely admitted both the details and their involvement in her death --saying that her death was an expected risk when trying to get demons out of a person. The girl was at the convent because she came to visit someone and this is what happened to her.


What these people teach and learn to themselves, unless dangerous, is purely thier choice, and is as valid and modern as they want it to be.
It is far beyond isolated sickness within voluntary participants.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by Full Metal
"And i doubt Bush says that GOD talks to him and "tells him to kill people" Rren

HE DOES TO!!!!! Bush has said several times GOD TOLD HIM TO INVADE AFGANISTAN AND IRAQ!!!!!! According to the church God talking to you makes you a saint, therefor Bush is a saint.


So because Bush SAYS god talked to him, it is automatic fact that God did indeed talk to Bush? Smells rotten to me. If Bush said "I'm only taking the oil cos I loves to drink the stuff", would you believe that? I thought not, your twisitng Georges twistedness for your own twisted post.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38




Did they put something in the holy water? Curse them? Knock them over the head several times with a large iron crucifix? It's odd that for sure, and I can't fathom how it would happen, but obviously deaths can't be excused.
I don't have time to find a link--got to go to work, but I can tell you from what I remember readingm about the incident in Russia (in a legitimate and reliable news article supported by credible authorities and evidence, as well as the priest's own statements of it being fact) that the young lady was tied to a cross in an imitation of crucifixion, and was starved, burned with fire here and there (not a cigarette, but something similar), she was physically abused somehow--beaten perhaps, kept in the dark, denied water....and the nuns involved as well as the priest refused her begging to be let go, and freely admitted both the details and their involvement in her death --saying that her death was an expected risk when trying to get demons out of a person. The girl was at the convent because she came to visit someone and this is what happened to her.


I remember that actually. I remember thinking "Wow, what a bunch of fruitcakes". They sounded like sick individuals hiding behind religion, hiding their sadisitc ways. Sadistic people can exist in both religion and atheism, and I don't for one second believe religion came into this case. Of course thats just an opinion, but I think they simply went to town on the poor girl and then blamed it on religion.

As for it becoming dangerous or widespread.....I can't see the scenario that would allow the practice back into our lives. What would it take for most of us to suddenly be overpowered by the RCC and give in, to let exorcism once again be the norm? Surely it would be some major event that instantly resurged the worlds fear in God. Apart from that, I can't think of a likely situation where exorcism suddenly becomes a danger to us.

[edit on 13-10-2005 by chebob]

[edit on 13-10-2005 by chebob]



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 01:11 PM
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You misunderstand the post, according to the church if God talks to you you become a saint. Bush says God talks to him, therefor he is a saint. How do you prove God talks to you? You can't! Church just takes their word for it. I can say God talks to me and if the Church finds out I become a saint! Saint Alexander the 17th and a 1/2 and 4/5, has a nice ring to it.



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