Hearing voices & making noises

This never ends does it.

Everyday on this forum we go round and round in circles and nothing ever gets remotely close to being solved.

If you look back on most of the posts you will see a point where someone asks a question or presents an argument that flys in the face of Christianity and that argument is skillfully (sometimes not so skillfully) glosssed over by a brother of a Christ.

I'm sick to high heaven of it all really, I'm sick of Christians ignoring evidence and pleading faith, I'm sick religion dividing people and I'm toally sick of the fact that people think it's wrong to question someones religious beliefs.

From the Council of Nicea to Pat Robertsons comments Christians have been ruining it for the rest of us sane folks.

To beleive that your God is the one true God is ARROGANT

You have no proof other than a bias document written by Christians and yet some of you are willing to kill, die and preach in the name of a man who may or may not exist.

Christianity spread easily because the upper classes wanted it that way...If you tell a peasent he is fighting in the name of God he will fight for his own place in heaven but if he tell him he is fighting in in order to gain more wealth, land and power for the rich he might not be so willing to slaughter and plunder.

It's ridiculous and obvious that it is social control that has long been exposed but we have millions of ignorant families who perpetuate this mythology to their children and their grand children.

I hate speaking about this all time and it's infuriating because the Christians keep plugging away like the indoctrinated souls they are.

What is more plausable...the world is run by Giant lizards who live underground, the earth is in a testube somewhere in a cosmic science lab or that God Almighty impregnated a Jewish virgin 2000 years ago!!

It's annoying and frustrating that Christians totally beleive that these events happend because they were brought up to beleive the bible is the word of God...IT'S NOT!!:

The bible was written by human beings with their own personal flaws, morals and agendas and the truth of Jesus's existence or none existence has long since been lost and yet people see this golden image of Jesus with hippy hair and blue eyes and that is who they think he is.

THERE WAS NEVER ANY DESCRIPTION OF HIM...IT'S A FANTASY...AND DO YOU REALLY THINK IF HE WAS AN ARABIAN HUNCHBACK WITH A FALSE LEG AND A BAD HAIRCUT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A POPULAR RELIGIOUS FIGURE AND EVERYONE WOULD BE WEARING THAT IMAGE AROUND THERE NECKS??

It's utter rubbish that we people who know better, who have not closed our minds and have set out to investigate ideas that go beyond the bible have to put up with everyday.

Mad Christian Presidents claiming to hear Gods voice...Mad Evangelical preachers claiming God Speaks to them...Mad Popes claiming to be Gods representative on earth....

You know if you're poor and hear Gods voice you are considered to be insane and medicated but if you are a rich and powerful figure then have been CHOOSEN to do Gods work.

If we have people going around making choices for us based on what voice they hear that day then we are in all kind of trouble, the facade of democracy is one thing but if you combine that government agendas being controlled by voices in people heads then it truely must be the end of the world and rightly so.

It's utter, utter crap...the evidence against it all is tremendous even discounting evolution, natural history and common sense....

It's a system that was spread and utilised in order to keep everyone in their place..to keep the poor sedated so they didn't rock the boat and oust the rich and it's all coming to a head in this modern era because the poor are more eduated then ever and they can see gaping holes in the bull# their families and forfathers have been sold since year zero.

Nothing I just said will make a blind bit of difference to Christians because they have Faith.

Well Faith is not a good enough excuse anymore...Faith allows you to have hope...but it also allows you to be ignorant and that can only lead to stupidity.

If a man called Jesus ever existed he would be ashamed how his philosophy was turned into a corrupt tool of control and how the people at the very top of the class system have exploited those below them in Gods name since the church came into being.

We've had tyrant Popes who indulged it wild orgie and mass murder and yet they were somehow Gods Representative on Earth, Child Abusing bishops who are Gods reprensentative for their communities and yet people still respect and believe these people were choosen by God!!

Christians Quoting the bible as if that's a defence HOW ON EARTH IS QUOTING A BOOK WRITTEN BY MEMBERS OF YOUR OWN RELIGION A DEFENCE?? THATS NO DIFFERENT FROM A FACIST QUOTING MIEN KAMPH TO JUSTIFY HIS NAZISUM!

It's 2005 and we are playing the same old games, living with the same old lies and nobody is doing anything about it.

Who knows maybe next week George Bush or Tony Blair will here a voice saying that should invade Iran and we'll go along for the ride.

You see as long as religion is emersed in politics...as long as the Catholic church has power the world will forever be divided and it's not a divide that can be physically broken down, it's not a wall or a barracade It's a psychological barrier that is stronger then steel.

If you have been taught from day one yours is the one true God and you haven't taken the time to question that then you beleieve it, even die for it because that is all you know and you're either unequipped or unable to imagine life without that belief.

People who have the power to make decisions for humanity should not have any fixed religious belief and especally a beleif with the arrogance and ignorance of Christianity, a faith that has done far more bad then it has ever, EVER, done good.






[edit on 12-10-2005 by BobDylan]

i am in near totall agreance with you,

nice post

does the name krystal mean anything to you? just asking......

Yes! Definately I am with you. It was just the other day that I was talking about how christianity is just a tool to keep people from killing everyone and how I hate that they always use their excuse of faith and/or 'thats how god made it'. for things like if we found like on another planet, they would say "god put it there for a reason" or "its the devil decieving you" or whatever they may say. I hate how there is always a way around it and even though that way is completely ignorant it is accepted. Very good post.

finally someone with something sensible to say.



G

Although I'm a non-christian, heck, make that non-religious, I'd like to know where your sense of know better than others comes from, and also how you find your "moral centre" for lack of a better term?

To beleive that your God is the one true God is ARROGANT

This is what iv'e always thought.Good for you for standing up to the vast tide by yourself

An excellent post (though i think you may be getting some hate mail soon)

Your view of how politics and man have corrupted the church are right on, and I think that is why a lot of people find it difficult to be a believer in God now. Even worse are the situations of those that are led to believe that they MUST join a religon or a church in order to be saved. There are very many requirements as far as I see it, live the word of God.

However if you manage to sift through all the deception, you'll see there are only a few things you need to do, read the bible, get baptized properly (symbolizing death of the flesh), turn and repent from the ways of the world, have faith that Jesus Christ is our savior and he will grant you his spirit, from there on you will become a "new creature" and from what I'm told, you will start to develop a whole new understanding...for everything.

After reading what I just wrote, some might assume that I'm a "religous nut" or something of that sort, but I try to distance myself from anything religous as we know it today. I went to a Catholic grade school for 7 years and I never got much out of the lessons taught to me in the church other than basic morals, which nevertheless I am thankful for, but I lost any understanding of God that I had shortly after and was a disbeliever for years. One simple man, a janitor (for lack of better word) by day and a lawn mower/landscaper by night who drastically changed his life for the better in a matter of 1 year taught me that all you need is a bible and faith.

[edit on 10/12/2005 by JKersteJr]

Thanks for the comments and apologies for the spelling.

Interesting stuff

JkersteJr...the world is a paradox and so are the people who live in it and if you are lost, alone or unable to deal with life then embracing the lord Jesus Christ seems like a good option.

They use Christianity as device to assit them in changing their ways and it works for many people but so does Psychology, medication, Paganism and Scientology and 1000's of other ideas.

We should never ever forget that Christian faith is based on the Bible. A book written by followers of a faith in order to promote and maintain that faith and it is not a document written by the hand of God Almighty himself and we should aslo never forget that Christians beleive that there's is the one true God and everyone who practices a different religion is wrong.

Sure many progressive modern Christians will plead religious tolerance and rightly so but most of them are single minded, ignorant and unwilling to except any evidence that contradicts their beliefs.

Lets throw out an example of the Churches stupidity....preaching none use of contraception in the middle of an AIDS epedemic and no Abortions for 10 year old girls who have been raped by their father.

Do these seem like sensible policies to you?

The Pope is Gods representative on earth so is supposed to make sure Gods will is done on earth so let's have look at how he goes about doing this:

Does he sit in a quiet room to pray and as soon as he hears God voice in his head he acts on that the say so of that voice??

If so we have a powerful figure making decisions for the world based on a voice in his head, how does he know it's God when it could just so easily be the Devil?

Would you really want to worshipp a God who would willingly kill millions of his poorest people with a killer disease and do nothing to help them?

Then again AIDS is a virus and everything including virus are created by God so maybe AIDS is divine retribution for the sins of homosexuals and promiscuity.

But no...because innocent Children in the womb can be born with full blown AIDS so God isn't really giving those people a fighting chance is he?

I'm not going to go on because I get so angry and worked up about it and i really find it hard to fathom how so many people choose to deny basic common sense and instead choose to beleive in a religion based on a bias book that has very few roots in the garden of truth.

One simple man, a janitor (for lack of better word) by day and a lawn mower/landscaper by night who drastically changed his life for the better in a matter of 1 year taught me that all you need is a bible and faith

Now that sounds like the premise for a really bad film.

Why does it have to be the bible and faith why can't it be the Koran and faith or Gnostic gospels and faith or the philosophy of Decartes and faith??

Christians live under this illusion that the only followers of their faith can live happy and productive lives.

Damn Damn idiots to a man

Ok Bob Dylan - You and your friends fairly well agree with your dislike of the mainstream religions in Christianity.

In more academic terms, Christianity is becoming secularized. That is, it is dabbling with politcal power to both maintain itself for another 1,000 years while gaining influence over the laws that govern us.

There is a ray of hope:

I'm willing to say it is a sure thing, that within ten years of this post, the church you find so difficult to deal with, will be well on its way to collapsing and only leave its buildings behind to be used for other things.

Would that suit you?

Is there anything you would like to replace it with?

Ron

Such negativity Bob, I'm not here to push my beliefs on anyone, I'm hear to engage in intellectual conversations with others and learn from everything.

Firstly, I am not part of any religous organization or church, I went to a Roman Catholic church/grade school when I was a kid because thats where my parents sent me, I was forced into it and because of that when I got older I abandon God/religon/creationism everything. I consider myself a spiritual person and that is it, keep in mind I only started really reading into the scriptures just about a year ago, I haven't made complete sense of everything yet. This friend that helped me, he's not an out there guy, he's really simple, I've known him for 4 years and he's a totally different person now, the things he explains to me about life sometimes hit so hard it is downright scary.

JkersteJr...the world is a paradox and so are the people who live in it and if you are lost, alone or unable to deal with life then embracing the lord Jesus Christ seems like a good option.

I'm not alone, or unable to deal with life, and I'm not quite lost, I embrace the Lord and the scriptures because I am a born truthseeker and the things I have read in the Bible seem to explain perfectly what the world is going through today, what I've learned just in a few months has made sense of so many things.

They use Christianity as device to assit them in changing their ways and it works for many people but so does Psychology, medication, Paganism and Scientology and 1000's of other ideas.

Again, I'm not a Christian and I dont really support any church or religon, I think it should be up to the person themselves to change their ways if they so choose, God isn't going to actually do it for you, thats not how he works. I'm against prescription medication for depression or unless its needed for extreme situations, Scientology is laughable to be honest, Paganism...seems pretty evil to me ...

I really dont have a response for your many comments on the faults of the Christian religon, I dont belong to a church and to some point I agree with you, the scriptures have been mistranslated, manipulated, copied and destroyed on a vast scale, now some of these religons are teaching the wrong things, not to mention becoming more and more political.

I am on the fence still about certain issues such as abortion, I completely see why, in this immoral world that we have created that some people may feel they need to terminate a pregnancy, but its MURDER and I have a hard time justifying it no matter how open minded I am.

Does he sit in a quiet room to pray and as soon as he hears God voice in his head he acts on that the say so of that voice??

If so we have a powerful figure making decisions for the world based on a voice in his head, how does he know it's God when it could just so easily be the Devil?

I really hope that we dont have world leaders making decisions based on literal "voices" in their heads, I dont believe God works in that matter, he doesn't interfere with our lives so much, he wants us to make our own decisions. Satan is the great deciever, God made him perfect, he has the power to influence us and our thoughts to some measure and he works through people.

Would you really want to worshipp a God who would willingly kill millions of his poorest people with a killer disease and do nothing to help them?

Then again AIDS is a virus and everything including virus are created by God so maybe AIDS is divine retribution for the sins of homosexuals and promiscuity.

But no...because innocent Children in the womb can be born with full blown AIDS so God isn't really giving those people a fighting chance is he?

God isn't killing millions of people with AIDS, we are doing it to ourselves, maybe you should just really think about where the virus may have come from and why on earth do we not have a cure yet considering the amount of research we could with the money we have, how convenient.

I'm not going to go on because I get so angry and worked up about it and i really find it hard to fathom how so many people choose to deny basic common sense and instead choose to beleive in a religion based on a bias book that has very few roots in the garden of truth.

I'm a very modest person but I will say that I have more than enough common sense, used to believe the exact opposite of what I do now, I thought the idea of God was foolish, I was SURE that we evolved from apes, and that when I died...I was dead. It was my search for purpose and truth that lead me to compare both sides, examine my current surrondings and happenings and try to make sense of something, thats what I did.

Now that sounds like the premise for a really bad film.

Why does it have to be the bible and faith why can't it be the Koran and faith or Gnostic gospels and faith or the philosophy of Decartes and faith??

Christians live under this illusion that the only followers of their faith can live happy and productive lives.

Thanks for the insult, if I could capture the awakening I've experienced in the the past few years on film somehow, I'd be famous.

I didn't search through all the available religons and pick one, I became interested in the Bible because it just so happens to be the most interesting book I've ever read.

You really dont like Christians do you, well dont be so quick to group every one of them into the same "idiot" category, some of them belong to the church because they really think that is the best way to live a good life, but IMO you dont have to belong to a church to serve God, just start by reading the good book.

[edit on 10/13/2005 by JKersteJr]

[edit on 10/13/2005 by JKersteJr]

Originally posted by Aronolac
Is there anything you would like to replace it with?

Ron

Would hedonism and total debauchery be OK?

Thanks for your comments JkersteJr..what I'm about to say is not intended to be malicious.

I am a born truthseeker and the things I have read in the Bible seem to explain perfectly what the world is going through today, what I've learned just in a few months has made sense of so many things.

Well I mean really...a 2000 year old document written by Jewish exiles claiming to be the word of God but written by Christians with Christian motivations, agendas and bias and you think it explains perfectly what the world is going through today!!

I don't see that at all...sure the basic message of Christianity , Don't Kill each other and try to be nice is relevant but thats kind of a basic idea that was around long before Jesus was ever pinned to a piece of wood.

I'm against prescription medication for depression or unless its needed for extreme situations, Scientology is laughable to be honest, Paganism...seems pretty evil to me ...

Some people need medication and are able to live fuller and more productive lives becasue of it and in the end it comes down to personal choice. Scientology was devised by a single man wheras Christianity was devised by a number of men.

Christianity is heavily influenced by Paganist ideas and any small amount of research will clarify that influence for you.

The scriptures have been mistranslated, manipulated, copied and destroyed on a vast scale, now some of these religons are teaching the wrong things, not to mention becoming more and more political.

True enough but the scriptures were still written by men and not designed by God himself so they were flawed from the very beginning.
Religion is many things and one of those is a tool of governance so people in Power have manipulated religious texts to their own advantage since they first appeared.
The real truth has been lost to us and what is the truth anyway..." So Jesus say's Be nice to one another and try not to hurt anybody"....this is common sense not some divine and Godly law.

am on the fence still about certain issues such as abortion, I completely see why, in this immoral world that we have created that some people may feel they need to terminate a pregnancy, but its MURDER and I have a hard time justifying it no matter how open minded I am.

Abortions should always be a personal choice and at the end of the day it's up to the person who wants to have sex and doesn't want a baby to make sure she takes measure to protect herself but the catholic churches stance on Contraception does not allow for them to be educated on such things.

Anyone can create a life, it happens every single second of the day and if a women living well below the poverty line in calcutta with 7 children to feed wants to abort number 8 in order to make sure the other 7 eat then so be it

Society has no right to dicatate because most of the time it is unaware of the circumstances.

God isn't killing millions of people with AIDS, just really think about where the virus may have come from and why on earth do we not have a cure yet

If you are suggesting that the AIDS virus was manufactured to cull cut down the population of developing countries then I'm not going to disagree. I'm not sure the background of history of the Virus but it was either made in a laboratory or made by God.

If the Lab thing is true then thats human responsibility.

If it's God he's purposefuly killing millions of his own poorest creations

I didn't search through all the available religons and pick one, I became interested in the Bible because it just so happens to be the most interesting book I've ever read.

The bible is a great book...one of the best but that doesn't make it true does it?

Maybe some of the stories in it are based on real events, maybe there was a man called Jesus, maybe there was a Noahs Ark and maybe Moses talked to a burning Bush

They keyword here is MAYBE...faith is not proof it's a gamble and Christianity is a gamble based on very little factual evidence and a whole lot of exaguration and heresay.

You see a big mistake lots of Christians make is saying " Well that passage is obviously a metaphor, that passage is symbolism and that passage is absolutley true"

The fact of the matter is ever single word of that bible HAS to be true in order for the Christian faith to be taken seriously and anyone will an ounce of knowledge and sense should know that lots of that book is a great big fat pack of lies.

You can't just pick and choose the bible to suit your belief system, you can't read between the lines because by doing that you are assuming you know what exactly was going through the writers mind when they put pen to paper and the truth is you have absolutley no idea who these people really were.

I advise investigating the bible a little further

Well I mean really...a 2000 year old document written by Jewish exiles claiming to be the word of God but written by Christians with Christian motivations, agendas and bias and you think it explains perfectly what the world is going through today!!

I don't see that at all...sure the basic message of Christianity , Don't Kill each other and try to be nice is relevant but thats kind of a basic idea that was around long before Jesus was ever pinned to a piece of wood.

I really dont know exactly how old the Bible is, I could go look it up, but how do I really know, besides, roughly 1600 years ago is only when the writers completed it. Much of the material was passed down orally through many different generations.

To me, none of that really matters though, I dont think about that I just stay with an open mind and read it, if you open that book up with a bias or a pre-determined belief on it then you wont get anywhere, honestly. I have only read a fraction of it and I have recieved a lot more than just morals, my mind has opened up to whole new concepts.

Christianity is heavily influenced by Paganist ideas and any small amount of research will clarify that influence for you.

From what I have read, historically, Paganism just seems to be an off chute to break away from the monotheistic belief and I have read nothing supporting that in the Bible. I can see how a person may misinterpret some of ideas as being of a pagan nature but IMHO thats simply because the actual defintion on the word paganism has changed in meaning over the years.

True enough but the scriptures were still written by men and not designed by God himself so they were flawed from the very beginning.

I have to disagree, they were not flawed from the begining, only when people tried to translate and find a way to explain something allegory in a literal sense were they flawed.

Religion is many things and one of those is a tool of governance so people in Power have manipulated religious texts to their own advantage since they first appeared.

I agree for the most part, but I dont think religion was a tool for control from the very begining, those in power most likely witnessed the strength of it at its onset and so they tampered it so they could use it for their own agendas.

The real truth has been lost to us and what is the truth anyway..." So Jesus say's Be nice to one another and try not to hurt anybody"....this is common sense not some divine and Godly law.

It goes so much deeper than that friend, and your right, that is common sense, so why on earth can't a LOT people seem to follow something so simple?

Abortions should always be a personal choice and at the end of the day it's up to the person who wants to have sex and doesn't want a baby to make sure she takes measure to protect herself but the catholic churches stance on Contraception does not allow for them to be educated on such things.

You talk as if you dont understand why they take that stance, it is taught in the Bible that having sex with 1 or more partners without being married is called fornication and is a sin. In todays world it has become pretty much accepted, but just look at all the negative things that can come out of even just a one night stand. If everyone waited until they were married to the person that they knew they were going to spend the rest of their life with then we most likely wouldn't have thousands of AIDS victims spreading the virus around to millions of others. We wouldn't have as many kids growing up with no Father or no Mother, there would not be as many emotionally influenced suicide/homicides either.

If you are suggesting that the AIDS virus was manufactured to cull cut down the population of developing countries then I'm not going to disagree. I'm not sure the background of history of the Virus but it was either made in a laboratory or made by God.

I can say I'm confident God didn't create AIDS, but who else has the power/resources to manufacture such a plague, hmmm?

Bob, it seems as if you like a lot of others I see debunking religon are assuming that I think because I have faith in God and the Bible that I have proof. Thats not how it works, its the exact opposite, we dont have any actual physical proof, but we keep our minds open to things that we may not have any shred of knowledge about.

You see a big mistake lots of Christians make is saying " Well that passage is obviously a metaphor, that passage is symbolism and that passage is absolutley true"

The fact of the matter is ever single word of that bible HAS to be true in order for the Christian faith to be taken seriously and anyone will an ounce of knowledge and sense should know that lots of that book is a great big fat pack of lies.

You keep talking about proof, well let me see you show ME actual proof that there are lies in the Bible, and then when you find it, make sure you aren't being lied to yourself...

So many are ignorant to how the Bible works, it is littered with proverbs and parables and other allegory meaning that only spiritually enlightened people are meant to understand, and I dont need proof of that because you know what, when you have a rough picture of everything, that makes perfect sense.

I advise investigating the bible a little further

I advise taking your own advise, but this time, do it with an open mind.

Peace,

[edit on 10/14/2005 by JKersteJr]

JKersteJr...ok

Lets say I disprove one story in the bible

If I do it stands to reason that doubt will be cast on the other stories too becasue a chain is only as stong as It's weakest link.

We'll start with the playground stuff and one of the more obvious events that are missing from the bible, the good old Dinosaurs.

On what day did God create those exactly?

The next logical step would be the story of Noah...how exactly did he take two of every animal into the ark when many animals only existed in the Americas and other far reaching places he never knew of?

It's either all true...or it's all open to doubt

So which is it JKersteJr?

Well Bob, like I said, I am early in my studies so I dont want to attempt to elaborate on things I'm not sure of.

Well, I just recently was contemplating about the Dinosaurs subject after reading some similiar material on ATS and its honestly still puzzling and extremely interesting to me. I'm not familiar with the specific passages, I will try to find them, that refer to possible early life on the planet when it was young before God shaped man, remember many think that 1 of Gods days may equal several thousand or more years...

The Bible refers to dragons and serpents, giants, and all sorts of other beasts, I'm just not sure if there is any abstract mentioning of what we refer to as Dino's.

About Noah's Ark, everyone makes the misassumption that Noah had to have 2 of every single breed of every single species of animal anywhere on earth. I believe that micro-evolution for lack of a better word exists, in that species adapt to their enviroments and take on physical changes over time. That is why I believe Noah possibly only needed 2 of the basic species and over time they would number and migrate again.

But to be honest I really dont like commenting much of the Noah's Ark thing, I've sometimes had the feeling that maybe I'm trying to understand the story literally and theres something else to it that I haven't been shown yet

I realize that the Bible is open to doubt man, I'm understand that these things are hard to believe buts THATS the point, its all a test, to see which are worthy, to find those that can see past deception.

Originally posted by BobDylan
If you look back on most of the posts you will see a point where someone asks a question or presents an argument that flys in the face of Christianity and that argument is skillfully (sometimes not so skillfully) glosssed over by a brother of a Christ.

I'm sick to high heaven of it all really, I'm sick of Christians ignoring evidence and pleading faith, I'm sick religion dividing people and I'm toally sick of the fact that people think it's wrong to question someones religious beliefs.

Ahem. Your religious position is unstated here, yet you have a go at the religious position of others.

The religious position of most such people is conformity to some subset of the societal values fashionable in the age and country in which they grew up. Such systems of values change every 40 years or so, and have no validity as soon as they go out of fashion. The hippies all sneered at the Christians for being 'squares' -- but who today is a hippy? And so on.

It seems to me that those who can't even state their own religious position in a form that will bear examination, but confine themselves to attacking Christianity, have some thinking to do. Any fool can engage in vituperation.

The question is the religion of our age. Just why should we believe in this default, which even its devotees shrink from examining as a whole?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

The simple answer to that question Roger Pearse is that my religious position is unknown.

I don't follow any particular faith because I'm not so delluded or arrogant to beleive that my Faith is the right one and others isn't

I question Chritianity because at this present time ( and in times past) there are many powerful people who believe in the Christian God and the actions ofthose people have an effect on myself and the world around me.

I mean...it is a pretty audacious claim that the father of your religion was born of a Virgin, was the son of god, performed miracles, died and was then reborn.

If a person suggested that the world was created by Giant Birdlike people who Live on the belt of Orion then you would expect them to answer questions about the roots and origin of that belief and yet many Christians see questions regarding their religions foundation as insulting.

If you are going to make big claims you have to expect people to question those claims, simple as.



[edit on 15-10-2005 by BobDylan]

Originally posted by BobDylan
The simple answer to that question Roger Pearse is that my religious position is unknown.

I don't follow any particular faith because I'm not so delluded or arrogant to beleive that my Faith is the right one and others isn't...

(I've removed the ensuring anti-Christian vituperation)

I'm afraid this will not do. You and I and everyone all live by a set of values and ideas. These must be discussed, not assumed.

If you wish to deny this, of course, you are welcome -- but I'm afraid such a denial is not credible. For life is full of choices. To drive through a traffic light on red -- or not. To seduce your neighbour's wife -- or not. To pay your bills, to watch TV, to read certain books -- or not. And a million and one other choices. How do we decide? Or do we just conform? Or "if it feels good, do it"? Or what? The answer, for most people, is that they conform to what those setting the agenda of the times demand. So the hippies did in their day; so most do today. But this collection is a value-set, and should be evaluated as a value-set.

If we do not follow any predetermined set of values and ideas, we invariably live by and talk for some subset of the value-set of the societal values of our time. Since these change every 40 years or so, this collection of mutually contradictory beliefs and ideas, characteristic of each period of history, has no lasting value. The value-set of our day -- late 20th century USA -- for instance affirms atheism while encouraging people to sit in circles worshipping rocks.

Any position that consists merely of the abuse of the beliefs of others seems to amount to a demand to follow societal values. This will not do. Why should we live by these, since we can see the particular set of our time did not come into existence rationally, is not advanced rationally, and will disappear in response to fashion. Why can't we evaluate this value-set as what it is -- a climate and collection?

It is worrying that those who advance them -- as I think you have done here -- try to evade discussion of them, or state that they "don't have one". But of course it is very hard to see water, when you are a fish!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

With no malice intended

For the benefit of other users of the forum it might be a good idea to simplify your words and sentences as you delve into Jargon far to much.

I'm afraid this will not do. You and I and everyone all live by a set of values and ideas. These must be discussed, not assumed

It will not do according to whom exactly?

Lets ignore for a minute your talk of 40 year cycles and societal values and get to the bare bones of this topic (which I fear you have misunderstood)

Christianity by all accounts is around 2005 years old no that's one hell of a cycle you can'ty deny.

Before the English reformation and other such religious changes in Europe the Monarch was answerable to two people. The Pope and God Almighty.

The Popes power is based on many thing but one of the main ones is his ability to inspire devotion in his followers and persuade them to live by the rules that God himself has communicated via his papal vessel.

This is people power on a grand scale and those people can be mobilised very easily.

Lets take the Jerry Falwells, Pat Roberstons or even the head preist of a Latin American Village.

These men also have great power to mobilise and influence their followers and who knows, maybe even persuade them to vote a certain way in supposed democratic elections.

So what we are various organisations and individuals who...FOR 2000 YEARS...have been flexing power, gaining wealth and using their relationship with God in order to influence their followers.

They force their own will and ideas on the people and claim it is Gods will who has spoken to them in Prayer, vision or revelation.

There is no more proof that Chritianity is a religion based on fact than Scientology, Islam, Mormonism, Devil Worship or any other you care to mention but i Western society Christianity continues to be a very powerful influence on our society and this should be fought and rectified.

We have George Bush and Tony Blair...two of the most powerful figures in the world who beleive in and are being influenced by a God and saviour who is based not in history but in the fuzzy realms of faith and if that fact isn't the business of every man and women who live in their countries then I don't know what is.

When I vote it's a vote for democracy,discussion and actions based on reason I don' vote for people to act on the voices ringing in their heads.

I have every right to question and discredit Christianity because it has an effect on me just as any citizen of any country has a right to question the motivations and actions of their elected leaders.






[edit on 16-10-2005 by BobDylan]

Originally posted by BobDylan

I'm afraid this will not do. You and I and everyone all live by a set of values and ideas. These must be discussed, not assumed

It will not do according to whom exactly?

I'm not sure I understand. If you are saying you have the right to behave irrationally, of course you are right. But if we wish to discuss things with others, we must offer some reasonably rational thoughts, or be dismissed. Surely?

Lets ignore for a minute your talk of 40 year cycles and societal values ...

Ahem. You're no longer talking to me if you do.

(Anti-Christian statements snipped)

There is no more proof that Chritianity is a religion based on fact than Scientology, Islam, Mormonism, Devil Worship or any other you care to mention but i Western society Christianity continues to be a very powerful influence on our society and this should be fought and rectified.

You mean that you want societal values to exclude Christianity by law? Well, an intolerant and hateful position, but a consistent one. But why can't you offer any reason why we should conform to societal values? I suggest that this is because you don't understand your own beliefs.

All the best,

Roger Pearse