F-19A Specter Stealth Fighter

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posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 10:33 AM
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What a cool looking plane Insecreto, thank the lords for video games eh?

Shattered OUT...




posted on May, 24 2006 @ 01:54 PM
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Looks like a cross between the Monogram F-19 and the 'Firefox'





And found dis which looks Switchblade ish

media01.cgchannel.com...

[edit on 24-5-2006 by Browno]



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 11:58 PM
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LORAL was a major U.S. defense electronics and missiles system supplier of the early 1980's which was subsequently bought up by Ford Aerospace and disappeared. As I recall, the 'Monogram' version of the F-19 is actually a shape-for-shape copy of an advertising image than LORAL plastered over the center spread (two pages) of Aviation Week for about six months. This photoimage showed the F-19 shape flying VERY high (60-100K feet) over a see-the-curveature earth backdrop and the only difference I specifically recall was that it didn't have wing folds and it's canards were larger and swept (as indeed, one of the model jpegs in this thread shows).

Knowing that this company's work was largely avionics based and that they _never once_ had a prior airframe contract; it stands to reason that their advertising blurb was and remains fictional on the basis of having been released to the public at all. i.e. "Look at what we work on, now imagine what we /can't tell you about/" at a time when Stealth was all the whispered rage.

Now, having said that, the fact remains that Northrop did an 'Orca' styled XST platform that looked like a Have Blue XST with a ventral inlet ala YF-107-

www.f-117a.com...
www.coastcomp.com...

So the potential of a ventral inlet system is not itself impossible, even in a nominally 'agile' fighter.

Yet the real question is what you plan to do with the capability, in Euro Weather or at Middle Eastern radii.

The fact of the matter being that, even in the summer, if it's not hazey and pissing rain in the German afternoon, there's a mix of high-low running scud between 3-7K and 15-20K and mornings and evenings, often a fog. In winter, this becomes icey and sleetish with solid (low) overcast ceilings. All of which invalidates the F-117 LGB laydown concept, even before you take into account a '3 tankers later' limitation on the 500-700nm (Spain or UK) radii necessary to keep the jet out of TBM bombardment distances. One of the things which cripples Clancy's _RSR_ 'frisbee' is it's ability to operate out of German AFBs -long- after they would have been overrun.

It was often stated that the F-19 was associated with a secondary program name 'COSIRS' for Covert Survivable In-Weather Reconnaissance Strike. This sounded MUCH more apt for a stealthy-F-111 type asset intended to penetrate any distance through Euro IADS. Unfortunately, nothing was ever made public of any hardware outcome deriving from the name and if an asset existed, it is my best guess that it was as a high value target system designed to exploit the capabilities of the nascent Tacit Blue-as-Pave-Mover and U-2-as-ASARS/PLRSS systems in a dumb bomb truck. Indeed, 'TR-3' looks about right for a deep penetrator _given_ you accept the use of a PWW or boosted (Paveway IV as originally conceived) munition to deliver defense suppression using DME or a datalink seeker.

Unfortunately, most now believe that even the TR-3 is simply a misnomer for 'Tier 3' or 'Pave Onyx' as a cross between the Global Hawk (for range:payload) and Darkstar (as a limited bowtie aspect LO penetrator) which 'at full scale' was simply deemed too expensive and/or dangerous to be used as a potential penetrating ISR 'national asset' (post Powers).

Indeed, the Dark Star was known as the 'Tier 3 Minus' and has, post-cancellation, itself spawned a scaled up equivalent platform which has seen combat during OIF.

My guess is that either COSIRS RFI prestudy which actualized into this capability. Or has something to do with the Cold Pidgeon/Model 100 and Sneaky Pete-

www.habu2.net...

Efforts which begat the A-12. Indeed, according to _The Five Billion Dollar Misunderstanding_ there was a General Dynamics set of prototypes whose test program existence the MASSIVE profits from the F-16 program could support. And there is secondary evidence inherent that their potential performance as LO intruders caused them to supplant work being down with F-16 mod (XL and Agile Falcon etc.) updates.

COSIRS, as a radar equipped aircraft, could beat back the weather and this would also more or less fit the time frame and coalescing mission role of the early A-12 studies, as well as some period photos of the 'black triangle' testbeds being seen in what was /assumed/ to be ATB (Northrop) workup.

Finally, it might explain a why the government squawked so long and hard at GD's claim of 'not being given adequate LO entry data' to fulfill the A-12 contract during their ongoing lawsuit.

THIS, if anything is, IMO, the source of the COSIRS if not the F-19 legend. It may also be something that Clancy was allowed to refer to in his _RSR_ 'Frisbee' analogue. I doubt seriously if it was weaponized. And I have some reason to think that it may have only been to gain flying qualities knowledge on a basic LO-as-tactical-flying-wing design. But it did likely exist, at some level.


KPl.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 11:24 AM
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Hello. Ch1466 wrote:
"LORAL was a major U.S. defense electronics and missiles system supplier of the early 1980's which was subsequently bought up by Ford Aerospace and disappeared. As I recall, the 'Monogram' version of the F-19 is actually a shape-for-shape copy of an advertising image than LORAL plastered over the center spread (two pages) of Aviation Week for about six months."
So, does anyone have that image? Would be interesting to see.
Thanks.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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The F-19 was designed and built concurently with the F-117A. The F-19 used the same engines, same landing gear and some major structural parts but was shaped much like the airplane in the Loral ads. The F-19 and F-117A assembly lines were separted at he Burbank Skunk works by a huge metal curtain. Nobody in either program was allowed across that curtain nor were they allowed to transfer between those programs. In other words nobody was allowed to transfer from the F-117A to the F-19 or vice versa. Lockheed made 62 F-19s. Most went to the Navy and I speculate that some went to Israel which is why the incessant and constant denial of its existence. If a few did go to Israel, Israel would have not had to pay anything as it would have been budgeted to the Navy. The reason that the F-19 is such a secret is that the funding was hidden so that even top Senators and Reps. didn't know about it. The F-19 was not funded as an airplane. If the truth of the F-19 were to emerge it would compromise a lot of other hidden projects and would invite unwelcome questions about black budget funding. Specifically if key Senators (those Senators with special access clearances) were to find out that there were enormous projects that even they didn't know about it would cause a lot of problems. The F-19 was not supersonic. The F-19 did have some major stability problems that were eventually worked out. Gen. "Bobby" Bonds was killed in an F-19 not a Mig-23 as the disinformation artists would have you believe.

My sources for the existence of the F-19 are:

Lockheed test pilot for over 20 years who knew about the F-19 but did not fly it. This Lockheed test pilot pointed to the picture of a model of the F-19 on the wall in my den. I asked him if he knew what that was. He answered, "Do you?". I told him the F-19. He then said, "Yes, thats the airplane Gen Bond was killed in."

Assembly line worker who worked on most of the 62 F-19 airframes and who asked to transfer to the F-117A after his work was finished on the F-19. His request was denied and he was told that nobody at the Skunkworks was allowed to transfer between the 2 programs. I flew many hours with this guy who was a F/O with the airline I worked for. This worker worked on the F-19 at the skunkworks in Burbank and flight test at an area near Groom Lake.

A Navy Seal Team member (NOT Scott Lyons) who saw the photos of a model (not Testor's) F-19 on my wall and commented that he saw that airplane while he was stationed on an aircraft carrier. He said they only flew it at night.

John Alexander told me that he was in Ben Rich's office when the call came in that Bond had been killed. Alexander says Rich turned to him and said that Gen. Bod had just been killed in a Mig-23. This means the 'fix' was already in.

As to my access to secrets within the Skunkworks remember that I gave the story of the F-19 to Ned Day at the Valley Times in Las Vegas in 1983 or 1984. The story was titled "What's Going On at The Test Site." Ned misunderstood what I said and he called it the "Stealth Fire" instead of Stealth Fighter.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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Thanks for great response, but maybe do you have that image of "airplane in the Loral ads"?



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by zeerox



Thanks for great response, but maybe do you have that image of "airplane in the Loral ads"?



I just checked the frame and the picture in my Loral F-19 ad and it is 17 inches long and wouldn't fit in my scanner. If the frame was easy to take apart (which it isn't) I could get it reduced in size at Kinko's but then there might be a copyright problem. If somebody doesn't come up with the Loral ad in a few days I will see what I can do. When you see the Loral ad, the F-19 it depicts it has canards. If the real F-19 has canards then they are retractable.

Gen. Bond 'accidentally' discovered the F-19 while touring the Skunkworks in his capacity of overseeing the F-117A, with Ben Rich in 1977. Gen. Bond was vice commander of Air Force Systems Command. For details on this 'accidental' discovery please see Page 48-49 "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich and Leo Janos, Little, Brown and Company New York, Copyright 1994, ISBN 0-316-74330-5.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by johnlear
Gen. Bond 'accidentally' discovered the F-19 while touring the Skunkworks in his capacity of overseeing the F-117A, with Ben Rich in 1977. Gen. Bond was vice commander of Air Force Systems Command. For details on this 'accidental' discovery please see Page 48-49 "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich and Leo Janos, Little, Brown and Company New York, Copyright 1994, ISBN 0-316-74330-5.


Where did you get an F-19 from? I have my copy of the "Skunk Works" sitting net to me on my desk. The book only mentions Gen. Bond accidently discovering a Top Secret Navy project. Nowhere does it ever say the project was even an aircraft, let alone the F-19?

I think you may be filling in your own conclusions!

Tim



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by ghost



Where did you get an F-19 from? I have my copy of the "Skunk Works" sitting net to me on my desk. The book only mentions Gen. Bond accidently discovering a Top Secret Navy project. Nowhere does it ever say the project was even an aircraft, let alone the F-19? I think you may be filling in your own conclusions!


That is correct. I conluded that Gen. Bond accidentally discovered a project that was so secret (the F-19) that whoever the project belonged to saw to it that the General was killed flying that very airplane for his arrogance and temerity. I have proposed this theory to several of my friends who formerly worked at the test site and they both commented, "I wouldn't doubt it."



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 04:35 AM
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Hey guys I've done some googling and come up with an article that may be of interest.

Popular Mechanics

Oh and I read somewhere that the F-19 was originally supposed to replace the F-111 but after some research found that the F-111 was originally to be designated F-19. Can anyone speak to either of these two possibilities?



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 05:15 AM
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well the last part of the post is certainly wrong. when the TFX programme was started the top US fighter was the F-4, even the F-14 and F-15 were well in the future (even undreamt of) so there is no basis whatsoever for supposing the F-111 was originally to be called the F-19.

The designation F-4 was actually a USN one, originating from 'F4H-1' under the old naval system which translates into the modern system as 'F-4A'. The USAF designation for the Phantom was to be F-110 and F-111 followed on from that. All phantoms became F-4's, whether operated by the USN or USAF, when the system was standardised in 1962, with this standardisation the USN version of the F-111 was to be called 'F-111B'.

Likewise the F-18 Hornet wasn't developed until the late 1970's so why would a 1964 plane have a highter number under the same system?

[edit on 21-9-2006 by waynos]



posted on Sep, 22 2006 @ 04:59 AM
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For the Record, General Bond died in the crash of an F-117 Nighthawk!

Tim



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 07:02 AM
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Probably no one has that ad image, except John... :-)



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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For the record the picture posted by Matej and others is not related to the F-19, it is an early concept model from Lockheed regarding the ATF program.

And the official USAF bio on Lt. Gen. Bonds say he was killed in 84 at the Nevada Test Site, no mention of what plane though.

[edit on 23-9-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 01:23 PM
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Johnlear,

I must say your conclusions are intresting. My own research has always lead me the believe that the F-19 is a Northrop aircraft, you say it's Locheed. If it's really Lockheed, as you claim, then the F-19 should have a facited shape simular to the F-117. Skunkworks engineer Denys Overholser created the facited shape of the F-117 because the computers they had at the time weren't powerful enough to appy ECHO 1 to curved shapes.

IF the F-19 is what you say it is, why isn't is declassified yet? Faciting is LONG Obsolete as a way to achieve stealth. In fact, the shape is the reason the F-117's only big enough to carry two bombs. If it got any larger the L/D ratio would prevent the aircraft from flying.

I like your logic and your research, but the fact just raise too many questions for me!

Tim



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by ghost
For the Record, General Bond died in the crash of an F-117 Nighthawk!

Tim



Sorry folks, the above statement of mine is NOT correct! I got my facts wrong. I was looking through one of my books on stealth, and I found this statement:


Lt. General Robert Bond was one of the leading figures close to the Lockheed/Air Force program and probably knew more about the XST Test Program than anyone else. Bond was killed in 1984, however, in the crash of a Soviet MIG-23 Flogger in the Tonapah Test Range.


Source: J. Jones, Stealth Technology: The Art of Black Magic. Copyright 1986.

Now that we got the facts on the death of Gen. Bond correct, let's move on.

Tim



posted on Sep, 23 2006 @ 05:32 PM
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Could the F-19 Spectre be in anyway related to the B-17 Switchblade? I've read articles saying both were intended to replace the F-111. Could there have been a secret competition between the two if indeed they were developed?



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 01:32 PM
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Well, if the F-19 ever were real, all the evidence would seem to point to the fact that it would most probably be an interceptor IMO.

And there is no B-17 switchblade, only the AX-17(Supposed designation) Switchblade.


Just a minor correction, the Switchblade isn't a true bomber, it's a high speed, highly manueverable attack aircraft if it ever did exist in my opinion.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Sep, 24 2006 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Well, if the F-19 ever were real, all the evidence would seem to point to the fact that it would most probably be an interceptor IMO.


Intresting, I've always though the same thing. I figure the F-19 was either an intercetpor or a spy plane of some kind.

Tim



posted on Sep, 25 2006 @ 06:52 AM
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John,
How old is that Loral ad? 10 years?





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