Belief in god makes immoral people, suggested by study

www.monbiot.com...

A nice article about a study showing a more religious society knows more depression,homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy etc.

Thats something i felt for a long time... but this kind of proves it.

It's not the belief or spirituality that's causally linked to the data. It's the frequent by-products of more religious societies which can best be summed up as ignorance.

Remarkably, no one, until now, has attempted systematically to answer the question with which this column began. But in the current edition of the Journal of Religion and Society, a researcher called Gregory Paul tests the hypothesis propounded by evangelists in the Bush administration, that religion is associated with lower rates of “lethal violence, suicide, non-monogamous sexual activity and abortion”. He compared data from 18 developed democracies, and discovered that the Christian fundamentalists couldn’t have got it more wrong.(6)

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion … None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction.” Within the United States “the strongly theistic, anti-evolution South and Midwest” have “markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the Northeast where … secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms”.

Three sets of findings stand out: the associations between religion – especially absolute belief – and juvenile mortality, venereal disease and adolescent abortion. Paul’s graphs show far higher rates of death among the under-5s in Portugal, the US and Ireland and put the US - the most religious country in his survey – in a league of its own for gonorrhea and syphilis. Strangest of all for those who believe that Christian societies are “pro-life” is the finding that “increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator … Claims that secular cultures aggravate abortion rates (John Paul II) are therefore contradicted by the quantitative data.”(7)

This corresponds so much with some data I've been reading, not only on the frequently cited Clinton era sex education efforts resulting in decreasing abortion rates compared to Bush's "abstinence only" era of increasing teen sex and unwanted pregnancies, but also child molestation rates!

And no, it's not Christian Coalition and Republican Party Chairman's doing all of it. Just their fair share.

But given all the unrelated data in a variety of "hot button" areas, man do these kind of "trends" start to anecdotally pop out after a while.

The comparative annual rate of child victims:
decreased steadily from 15.3 victims per 1,000 children in 1993
to 11.8 victims per 1,000 children in 1999;
then increased to 12.2 per 1,000 children in 2000.
Whether this is a trend cannot be determined until additional data are collected.

It's increasingly obvious to everyone but "Christian" lobbying organizations that no matter what the "crime" the "just say no" mentality always makes it worse. It's a pro-ignorance position that I believe is intrinsically linked to people doing ignorant things! And that's not religion bashing. It's a call for reform. The Christian hate groups trying to run this country need a good dose of reality, a modicum of restraint and humility and to develop a healthy respect for "authority" and "expertise" outside their own counter culture.

This is funny actually.

When religious people find out that I'm Agnostic they are so surprised that I have good strong morals. It is like some people think that if you don't believe in god then you must have no reason to be a decent person.

Is it better to be good because you believe that it is the 'right' thing to do, or because you are afraid you will go to hell if you're bad?

My kids were raised to do the right thing because it was the right thing, not because they had to be afraid to do the wrong thing.

Being civilized does not require one to be Christian, in fact, the two are not always mutually inclusive, from what I have seen of some Christians' behavior!

I'm with RANT (there's a big surprise)

It's not the belief in God or spirituality that is showing up here. It's the strictures that organized religion insist are part of 'god's way'. I know this from experience. You keep a child sheltered and allow no room for 'sin' and boy howdy, when she gets a chance to sin she's most likely going to go for it and then have to pay the consequences.

I mean, if a kid isn't allowed birth control, isn't educated about pregnancy, is lambasted for even thinking, much less talking about sex, when she gets the chance to experience it, she's likely to get pregnant. Now what? Tell mom? I don't think so! Get an abortion.

I don't agree with this association of religion and beliefs, that's 2 different things. I have beliefs and I certainly don't have religion.

Three sets of findings stand out: the associations between religion – especially absolute belief – and juvenile mortality, venereal disease and adolescent abortion.

I know what you mean Umbrax, I'm agnostic in just about everything in life and people wonder how I make it through the day.

Leah Andreone, a local writer/singer in L.A. addresses this in her song "Hell to Pay". The following is a quote:

If there were no hell to pay
I wonder would you still need a god

Like most of you, I try to do what's right because it is right, not because I fear punishment or retribution.

Instead of proving that religion makes immoral people, this study shows the increase in religion through the increase of poverty.

It has been proven that religion does indeed increase in correlation to the increase of poverty in the nation. It has also been shown that crime rates increase in correlation with the increase of poverty.

Therefore an increase in religion should correlate to an increase in crime, and this is what this study has found...

[edit on 11/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Therefore an increase in religion should correlate to an increase in crime, and this is what this study has found...

Addressing all the themes that correspond to an increase in criminal and "immoral" behavior then they boil down to poverty and ignorance, both of which lend to increased Religious escapism. So it's really a self perpetuating cycle either way.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Instead of proving that religion makes immoral people, this study shows the increase in religion through the increase of poverty.

It has been proven that religion does indeed increase in correlation to the increase of poverty in the nation. It has also been shown that crime rates increase in correlation with the increase of poverty.

[edit on 11/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

So is it religion's fault for the increase of crime or is it poverty's fault?

Originally posted by Corinthas
www.monbiot.com...

A nice article about a study showing a more religious society knows more depression,homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy etc.

Thats something i felt for a long time... but this kind of proves it.

unless he has studied ALL societies of the world, that article is is no more than a worthless assumption.

sorry to dampen your whims.





[edit on 12-10-2005 by mr conspiracy]

Originally posted by knights5629
So is it religion's fault for the increase of crime or is it poverty's fault?

Increase in poverty creates increases in crime and religion. This would make poverty the source of increasing criminal activity, rather than religion.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Increase in poverty creates increases in crime and religion. This would make poverty the source of increasing criminal activity, rather than religion.

So if poverty is the source of increasing criminal activity, why then is this post blaming religion? It is amazing to me how fast people tend to blame religion for the source of all problems, instead of the attacking the real problems of society.

Originally posted by knights5629
So if poverty is the source of increasing criminal activity, why then is this post blaming religion? It is amazing to me how fast people tend to blame religion for the source of all problems, instead of the attacking the real problems of society.

The study only found that as religion increases so does crime. This does not however say that religion makes people immoral as the title of this thread suggests.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

The study only found that as religion increases so does crime. This does not however say that religion makes people immoral as the title of this thread suggests.

So Corinthas and Rant are trying to make this study say something that it doesn't. I would like to hear from them to let them explain how they came to their conclusions.

Sorry AkashicWanderer, I thought it was you that was making the statement.

Originally posted by knights5629
So Corinthas and Rant are trying to make this study say something that it doesn't. I would like to hear from them to let them explain how they came to their conclusions.

I believe you'll find the second post in this thread very illuminating as to my position on this study. Have a blessed day.

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Increase in poverty creates increases in crime and religion. This would make poverty the source of increasing criminal activity, rather than religion.

Now you're as guilty as the original poster in drawing a causal relationship from a correlation.

Does poverty lead to increased crime, or is there some other set of factors that lead to poverty, crime, and religion perhaps?

Perhaps increased religion causes increased legalism which results in more laws and thus more crime by definition, resulting in greater levels of official poverty as ex-cons end up working below board?

Perhaps increasing socialist mindsets lead to more poverty, crime and religion?

Perhaps lower education standards lead to all 3?

Crime rates are not a good surrogate for immoral behavior. Crimes against persons are the only crimes most of us really care about, yet they represent only a small fraction of the crime statistics. The vast majority of prosecuted crimes are victimless 'crimes against the state' that do not equate with a lapse in ethics.

If I were to venture a root cause, mind you this is just speculation, I would say ignorance and poor critical thinking skills lead to poverty, immorality, and religion, which then tend to foster ignorance and poor thinking skills. They are interrelated.

Originally posted by Corinthas
Belief in god makes immoral people, suggested by study
www.monbiot.com...

A nice article about a study showing a more religious society knows more depression,homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy etc.

Thats something i felt for a long time... but this kind of proves it.

Really?
Accordingly, try this article on for size?
Study says churchgoers are wealthier, less likely to divorce, better educated

Seemingly, these type study's are becoming about as meaningless as political polls, huh?






seekerof

[edit on 20-10-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by spamandham
Now you're as guilty as the original poster in drawing a causal relationship from a correlation.

Very true, thanks for pointing that out .

I guess all we can say is that,

There is a correlation between the religious beliefs of a society, and its crime rate.

This does not mean that religion is the cause of crime (although it could be), it just means that any quantitive change in either religious beliefs, and the crime rate, will affect the other.

Originally posted by Umbrax
This is funny actually.

When religious people find out that I'm Agnostic they are so surprised that I have good strong morals. It is like some people think that if you don't believe in god then you must have no reason to be a decent person.

Excellent that you have good strong morals. We need people with standards. Have you ever done anything wrong ever?