I personally don't think that they (whomever they may be) had him killed. I suppose anything is possible, so if his death was planned I wouldn't be surprised. However, I don't think that he was put to death on purpose. IMO I think that his death was probably a horible mistake that the government used to its advantage.

They saw the perfect opportunity in his death and grabbed at it. Like I said earlier though, in this world anything is possible. It will definitley be interesting to see what develops....

Originally posted by cargo
Very public dissent? I wasn't aware.

Really? Try reading some of the links supplied in this thread. For example:

Baer, who served with Tillman for more than a year in Iraq and Afghanistan, told one anecdote that took place during the March 2003 invasion as the Rangers moved up through southern Iraq.

“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”

Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.

Given that, you'd think that an ex-NFL star who gave up the 3.6 million dollar contract to fight for his country, won the heart of his nation, and had a "very public dissent" towards the War in Iraq would be a prime target to be silenced.

Remember that he signed up for Afghanistan. His battalion was sidetracked to Iraq, where he made known his displeasure with that war.

He had a legion of young male fans (PRIME recruitment material) who followed him as an NFL star and saw him give it up to fight for his country. You'd think with his "very public dissent", they might actually listen to him.

Can't have that.

Oh? And just who are these assasination boogeymen that sit in the bowels of the Pentagon and single out which of our soldiers should be murdered next? Why go halfway across the world when there are so many influential and prominent politicians, Hollywood types, and media right here that are outspoken against the war in Iraq? To murder Tillman would cause an outrage and investigation - just like what is happening now.

You seem to have a problem with the words "very public dissent". I don't know how you would define being vocal about Iraq, and Bush, and encouraging others to vote for Kerry. These were not whispers in the wind, or anonymous letters to a congressman. These came from his own mouth.

Repeating the phrase "very public dissent" does not, as you are trying to do, diminish the verity of the phrase or my arguments. It only shows that you need to resort to an attempt at intimidation to silence those who disagree with you. Hint: it isn't working.

Oh - and if it wasn't "very public dissent", then why would the boogeymen have him murdered?

[edit on 11-10-2005 by jsobecky]

No problem here with those words. I just quote them for emphasis. Ann Coulter says "I don't believe it", Hannity says "I don't believe it". You can bet there will be people here at ATS who say "I don't believe it". Therefore I take your quote (from their bretheren) and repeat it for emphasis.

I think it is actually a good thing and wish I had known more about it before I read Rants post. Even edited my Sig.

Pat Tillman truly was a hero.



[edit on 12-10-2005 by cargo]

Not sure if this is exactly Skunk Works material or not, but certainly willing to give it a shot to open up for more creative thinking and investigation without the fear of being labeled unpatriotic or something.

I'd really like to follow Mary Tillman (or Noam Chomsky for that matter) for any additional pertinent comments or revelations that come to light.

This seemed too unusual to me to simply die without further public commentary or coverage. Perhaps that means there was less to it than I suspected. Perhaps much more.

But it's wide open now for critique or speculation.

Yes Pat Tillman is a Hero just like all the men and women serving my great country.

I would also like to point out that not ALL military service men serve for their president but they serve for their country and fellow citizens. At least that is the same exact reason why I am currently serving again.

Tillman gave up 3.6 Mill to join the Army Rangers with his brother to protect his COUNTRY, not his President. This is something that i have yet to see people mention.

He was not a Martyr, as with all wars he was killed by friendly fire.

I for one am damn proud of his service and no matter how much love I have for the military I doubt I would give up a multimillion dollar contract to join.

Originally posted by SportyMB
yeah, what ever happened to the soldier that shot Tillman? I haven't been keeping track of this as much as some of you. Anyone know? RANT?

We know next to nothing except the initial "on the scene" findings were reversed, testimony changed and investigation taken over by higher ups with no explanation. Thus the new investigation.

According to testimony, the first investigation was initiated less than 24 hours after Tillman’s death by an officer in the same Ranger battalion. His report, delivered May 4, 2004, determined that soldiers involved in the incident had committed “gross negligence” and should be appropriately disciplined. The officer became a key witness in the subsequent investigation. For reasons that are not clear, the officer’s investigation was taken over by a higher ranking commander. That officer’s findings, delivered the next month, called for less severe discipline.

The parents, protesting that many questions were left unanswered, found a sympathetic ear in McCain, who Mary Tillman later said was greatly admired by her son. Tillman was well known in Arizona because of his success there as a college and pro football player. McCain began to press the Pentagon on the family’s behalf, and a third probe finally was authorized. Its report was delivered in January.

The military is saying little publicly about the Tillman case. Most Army personnel who were involved in the Tillman incident or the investigations declined to comment publicly when contacted by The Chronicle. The inspector general’s press office also declined to comment, saying only that the new probe is openended.

Over the coming weeks, Pentagon investigators are scheduled to carry out new interviews with many of the soldiers, officers and others involved in the incident.

Key inquiry points are listed in the cited article. But the Pentagon is in charge of the investigation and obviously wants as little attention as possible.

I think as many have pointed out something not only went wrong here, but is being covered up. Don't let one theory get in the way of finding the truth, whatever that may be.

But for this to not even be "gross negligence" (which was reduced) given the smoke and verbal communication efforts plus sniper like placement of terminal shots is unsatisfactory in my opinion.

Man, how lame it is to hear some of you stating for a fact that "This is not true." ...Where is your proof? The whole account is told to us fourth-hand (actual-shooter > army > media > you). Fact is, RANT's explanation makes more sense to me because it's so obvious and I think the bosses are evil enough.

The main two questions about conspiracy theories in general are: 1: Are those conspiring smart enough to pull it off, and 2: are the audience sufficiently stupified to accept it? The answer in this case is yes on both counts.

I have met many smart people and I have no doubt that it is possible that when Tillman enlisted, somebody may have put a red check-mark next to his name with the note, "If we need a sob-story, take this guy out." The main question is this: Can parts of the military be compartmentalized?

If a shadow-government (if such exists) wants to place a sniper on a nearby hill (perhaps tracking Tillman, their golden boy until the time they need a distraction) who then picks a key moment to fire, it would not be a novel idea and wouldn't require much thinking, only ruthless political strategy.

...Wait now, what was all that about the confusion regarding what kind of bullet was pulled from Reagan's body? Was it a rifle or a devastator bullet? I can't remember. ...Snipers firing while patsies fire simultaneously? Oh what a novel concept!

Byrd Said: 2) The death of a single soldier doesn't and didn't affect the Abu Ghraib scandal. We haven't seen more news or dramatic news or Abu Ghraib information that was impacted by Tillman at all.

Byrd, I think you might be underestimating the effect of the televised NFL/Tillman memorials which certainly affected much of Dubya's states.



[edit on 13-11-2005 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Tillman may have been a prolific reader, but that explains nothing. If he was a Chomsky fan, then how do you explain his enlistment to fight in a war that he was so philosophically at odds with? Common sense says that he would have stayed at home and protested the war.

I've read nothing about his displeasure with the administration.

I tend to agree with deltaboy. Tillman should have stayed prone until all was safe. To think that a conspiracy was cooked up for his brothers in arms to murder him is really a stretch and makes no sense at all..

Philosophically you are making assumptions. While I never did join, there was a time in my life when I seriously considered joining. Not because I agreed, but because there was a war going on that other innocent soldiers, who had nothing to do with the actual intentions, were dieing and could always use an extra set of hands.