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Originally posted by aimlessly
So does "paying the price" mean we can't defend? And yes i do believe to defend you sometimes have to be preemptive.
Originally posted by futuretense
Actually........Blair and Bush are puppets to those forces that are leading to such war criminal like actions of "preemptive war"........
it is an amoral force without regard to the human condition or conscious.......
In our whole human history it seems that it always ends up being about dominance or submission...................and nowadays that duplicity is fought with money as much if not more so than weapons..........
Originally posted by The Vagabond
You are exactly right to say amoral, although I believe the word you are looking for is immoral.
Originally posted by Regenmacher
I think he nailed it...
Originally posted by 27jd
If they were amoral, they would not be aware that what they are doing is wrong, and that goes against the contentions of many on this board. I think.
Originally posted by futuretense
And we should refrain from putting words in others mouths and not take it out of context.Those forces are the international finance commitees and transnational corporate charters............the IMF and World Bank coupled with mulitnational corporation's charters of maximizing profits while externalizing costs require that the entire world be democratized in a free trade environment regardless of the consequences...........it is an amoral force without regard to the human condition or conscious.......
Originally posted by Regenmacher
Decartes would say if you think it, so it is..."I guess" or "I think" or "I presume" can mean many things and can all evolve down to semantical insanity. Socrates dialogue can work to prove anything is true, so asking the source for clarity saves a lot of headaches and doesn't skew their in intention i.e. innuendos.
As for Bush, he probably "thinks" he's moral and under divine influence in an amoral world and our opinions count naught.
I'm sick of this anti war bull crap. Since when does a country NOT have a right to protect itself? Saddam needed to be put out of power, for OUR good not just the Iraqi's that can't stand up for themselves and control their own destiny.....
Originally posted by Jakomo
Oh, right. The USA was protecting itself from Saddam by invading him and overthrowing his regime.
And DON'T give me the "We are freeing Iraqis".
You didn't give a rat's ayse about Iraqis for 30 years while Saddam murdered and terrorized them, so save your sanctimonious and misplaced sense of duty for another thread.
Originally posted by The Vagabond
If I've said it once, I must have said it a million times: morality is an ad populum fallacy- that is to say, an idea without merit...
My point is that there is nothing fundementally wrong with war in and of itself. Force and the threat of force have been the prevailing factor in human affairs for millenia,
The real occasion for debate here lies with one of two questions. First, the ethics of the invasion itself could be questioned with more or less effect, although I would contend, as I already have, that this is basically irrelevant if it is existant at all.
Second, perhaps more compellingly, the actual motives and results of the invasion as executed could be contrasted with what would have been expected in a more textbook case in order to make the claim that America did not invade Iraq
Just to recap for clarify- of course America had plenty of reasons to invade Iraq, and there is really very little way for us to determine whether or not they were "good" reasons. All we can really hope to debate is
1. Were America's reasons, whether good or bad, incontrovertibly inferior to other alternatives?
2. Were America's reasons served, did they fail to be served, or was their no attempt to serve them- the later would theoretically invalidate a great deal of logical support for the war.
In all fairness... we did free the Iraqis, right before we replaced Saddam's yoke with our own. I suppose you could argue that it's at least a lighter yoke, but I'm sure that comforts the man behind the yoke a lot more than the man under it.
Originally posted by seattlelaw
Morality is a personal thing - both being moral and, the necessary precurser, choosing morals to live by.
Without morals to guide human behavior war indeed must seem like no big deal.
War seems like no big deal to you because you are too young and privileged to have experienced the consequences of war-like behavior directed towards you or your loved ones. It is the smug statement of elevated privelege.
I would expect the same type of remark from our spoiled, bullying, frat-boy president.
I only wish the body bags returning from Iraq held the remains of the loved ones of those
(emphasis mine)
who made the unlawful decision
quagmire
overwhelmingly poor, young people or the innocent children of Iraq.
What's the matter, don't you hear the screaming from your ivory tower?
Originally posted by Jakomo
Well, the ethics of it is that international law was flouted. The "pre-emptive" invasion of a Third World country with a small army, no Air Force, and suffering after 12 years of international sanctions and 1/3 of its' airspace shut down was falsely represented to the world as a whole.
The Bush Administration essentially said, "We don't care what you think. 75% of you disagree, but we are going in anyway."
What is to stop China from invading Taiwan using the exact same logic?
Certainly not a stretched thin US military.
He had no WMDs, he was no threat. So 2000 more US soldiers would be alive and probably about 40,000 Iraqis. There would be less terrorism in Iraq. There would be less nervousness among countries to actually start thinking about using nuclear weapons as DETERRENTS to U.S. invasions.
Do you honestly think that if two groups of people with wildly differing opinions sat down and talked about their points of view for a few weeks, that the result would actually be WORSE than what is happening now in Iraq as a result of its' military invasion in 2003?
Certain aspects of America's corporate world were served. Defense contractors, oil companies, etc.
By vagabond: In all fairness... we did free the Iraqis, right before we replaced Saddam's yoke with our own. I suppose you could argue that it's at least a lighter yoke, but I'm sure that comforts the man behind the yoke a lot more than the man under it.