religion vs atheists

Okay, the title gives the gist of this post: Could someone please tell me why the world is becoming secular, as there seems to be some reason why loads of people now reject religion.
I really don't understand why religion is dying, it makes no sense, unless it is because we seem to be in the age of Materialism and selfishness.

By the way, I was an atheist once, and I thought religion was crazy too. But now for some reason something made me believe. Maybe I have some special purpose...(I sort of doubt that).

Originally posted by apex
Could someone please tell me why the world is becoming secular

Freedom on the march. America led the way. Thank you founding father's for freedom from tyranny.

Any more questions?

Possibly because as our technology increases our mysticalism decreases due to science proving things and not proving things

Originally posted by apex
Okay, the title gives the gist of this post: Could someone please tell me why the world is becoming secular, as there seems to be some reason why loads of people now reject religion.

Knowledge may be one main reason why religion sometimes gets rejected.. others might include terrorism, holy war, hypocricey, corruption and governments becoming 'righteous' just to dominate citizens.. which leads me to ask.. why do you think religion is dieing? It's growing stronger everyday- just look at the news.

[edit on 10-10-2005 by riley]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Translation: Don’t worry, Jesus is coming so do not be deceived. Jesus will not come until people fall away from Christianity first and the antichrist is revealed. This antichrist will claim to be God but not before the Holy Spirit of God is taken away from the Earth. Jesus himself will soon destroy the antichrist with his mere presence. Those who decided not to believe on Jesus will perish and during this time God himself will send a strong delusion causing the unbelievers of the world to believe a lie. This lie will place them on the side of antichrist against God and they will be damned. They will be damned because they did not believe the truth and loved to do evil.

In Christ,

James

Originally posted by Machine
Translation: Don’t worry, Jesus is coming so do not be deceived. Jesus will not come until people fall away from Christianity first and the antichrist is revealed. This antichrist will claim to be God but not before the Holy Spirit of God is taken away from the Earth. Jesus himself will soon destroy the antichrist with his mere presence. Those who decided not to believe on Jesus will perish and during this time God himself will send a strong delusion causing the unbelievers of the world to believe a lie. This lie will place them on the side of antichrist against God and they will be damned. They will be damned because they did not believe the truth and loved to do evil.

^Here's another reason. :shk:

I imagine if hell existed there'd be many salivating and lining up to roast marshmallows on the unbelievers corpses.. sadism is always okay so long as it's 'righteous'.

[edit on 10-10-2005 by riley]

because we're fed up of following pagan traditions. or maybe it's because there's an absolute insane number of religions that claim they are right, and in fact having that many just makes the whole concept less plausable.

whether or not evolution was around, i still think we would see the same decline in religion. it's actually not so much of a decline in other religions, it's mostly in the catholic and christian churches. possibly because today's religion doesn't fit with the lifestyle that people want. they want to do their own thing, not live their life worshipping some deity that was written down in a book thousands of years ago. there aren't as many people in religion, not because of evolution, but because people just aren't interested.

so you keep believing you're going to heaven and i'm going to hell. and i'll keep believing at the end of the day i'm worm food.

Also, because theres no longer any retaliation against turning away from religion, and we're talking about western religion at the moment, because I'm not sure if eastern religion is having the same problem (they might or might not, not sure.)

Before the governments were run by the church (specially the roman catholic church in the byzantine and the holy roman empire eras of history.) During this time, anybody who actively went against the religion were basically killed (Crusades, burning at the stake, stoning, for example.) And so those who didn't believe it concealed themselves. in the 1900s the killings where gone, but the social stigma was still there. In fear of being ostricized from theyre community, they concealed theyre true beliefs from the outside world. In the 1960s, during the movement of free expression (aka hippies) this pretty much abolished. So from there on, theres been a more free forum for those who dont really believe, they can come out of the proverbial college.

Also, unlike during the medieval ages, the printing and expression of ideals have become easier to come by. With the advent of the printing press, television, books and later on the internet; people can now be exposed to more then just one idea, those bringing many to find theyre own personal beliefs, instead of being force to only know one.


Thats basically it.

Very interesting question! Thank you.

I have responded with a PODcast here.

Here is the text of my PODcast:

Hello everyone. This is Benevolent Heretic at Below Top Secret.com with a PODcast in reply to a written post. The subject is so interesting to me, I thought it would make a good PODcast and perhaps others would like to reply in one media or the other.

The subject is “religion vs. atheist” in the Faith, Spirituality and Theology forum.

I am not an atheist, but neither am I religious, so I thought I’d answer this question as a non-religious person.

Originally posted by apex
I really don't understand why religion is dying, it makes no sense, unless it is because we seem to be in the age of Materialism and selfishness.

My response is as follows:

I am less materialistic now than I've ever been in my life. And one of the words people who know me use to describe me is 'generous', so I don't think that it's either of those in my case.

I certainly cannot explain why 'religion is dying' in general, and I'm not even sure I can tell you why I turned away from it, but I can tell you some of my thoughts and experiences. And please remember that these are only my opinions.

I was raised in a very religious home. I was taught that Christianity was the one TRUE religion and that anyone who wasn't a Christian would go to hell. In fact, even Catholics wouldn't make it into the kingdom of heaven because of their propensity to drink, confess their sins to a priest (instead of Jesus), worship idols (statues) and pray to Mary instead of God.

I think my logical mind and my curiosity had a lot to do with it. I realized that everyone around the world had different religions. It didn't make logical sense to me that the chance place of my birth was the only thing that kept me from being a Jew, a Muslim or Hindu and therefore gave me even a ghost of a chance of getting into heaven.

I remember at 5 years old asking my mother about the babies born on the other side of the world, never having a chance to hear about Jesus. Where would they go if they died? So, even though I was raised since birth to be a model Christian, my doubts began very early.

As I grew up, I didn’t really have a chance to venture far from the religious life, as we were very sheltered. But once I was about 14 or so, I really started thinking for myself and reasoning out how the things I had been taught just didn’t make sense to me. I started turning my trust from the external world (what others told me) to my own internal logic system (what made sense to me).

And religion just didn’t make sense to me anymore. Over the next few years, it became clear to me that all of the religions of the world were just stories that people had handed down (just like any other cultural stories) in desperation to explain where we came from and where we’re going. That’s the bottom line for me.

None of us really knows where we came from or where we’re going; what our future holds. But our innate fear of the unknown motivates us to develop a story of explanation. If we can say, “Oh! That explains it and now I know what my future holds and I am in God’s hands, everything’s going to be all right”, we naturally feel more secure.

Even the stories today of our beginnings being of an alien nature and the Pleiadians will be returning to Earth and the ‘mother ship’ coming to take the gentle home or moving them into the 4th dimension… I consider that a religion of sorts. It’s all really just a story we tell ourselves to explain our beginnings and our future. Nobody knows. And most people are really uncomfortable with that, so they hear the stories that the different religions have to offer and they either pick the one that makes the most sense to them or they just stick with the one they were raised with.

But, I couldn’t, in good faith and integrity with myself, remain attached to a religion that I simply didn’t believe in.

- It doesn’t make sense to me that only one religion is ‘right’.
- It doesn’t make sense that God would reject someone who didn’t have a chance at hearing about Jesus.
- It doesn’t make sense to me that fear (of the unknown, in this case) is a valid motivator for Faith.
- It doesn’t make sense to me that if I don’t know which story to believe, and that if I don’t latch onto the right one, I’m going to burn in hell forever and ever, Amen.
- It just does not make sense.

The past 20 years of my life or so I have come to be very comfortable with the thought that I don’t know where the hell I came from and I don’t know where I’m going. The beliefs I do have come from within me, not from an external source. Sure, I have read and educated myself on philosophy, psychology, ethics, spirituality and I have my religious background and I’ve investigated many subjects. But my internal sense of right and wrong is what drives me to accept or reject the information, not a holy book or someone else’s thoughts or rules.

So, the reason I am not religious is because it makes no sense to me to latch onto one story or another in fear of not knowing the Truth. I have released the need to know. I trust life. I got here somehow. I figure whatever allowed that to happen, whether it’s God, the Pleiadians, my soul, nature or something else, will surely see that I am safely delivered to the next place… if there is one. And I am very comfortable with that.

Benevolent Heretic

Like BH I can only speak for myself. Early in my youth I realized that religion was a control mechanism designed by some very clever people strictly to get money from the faithful, that They created by the liberal use of fear mongering.

The concept of salvation [if you are in the RIGHT religion] only inhanced their grip on the faithful.

Personally I still love the rituals of Catholism but I see them now as only theatre to impress the peasants and also to foster donations to the church.

If there is a genitic propensity for rejecting authority; I got it bad or maybe I got it GOOD. I despise any group that wants to determine how I should think, act or be. I never try and force my belief system on others and I would appreciate it if the politicians, cops, religious charlatans, parents, teachers and any other control freaks out there would leave me the **** alone. GOD gave ME free will and I can exercise it how I please as long as I don't hurt others.

All around me I see others, young and old, independently coming to the same conclusions I have. Rev. Pat Is doing more to foster indenpendent thinking than he could ever realize. God bless him!! Even my conservative, evangelical, Texan, 80 yr. old mother is beginning to feel "chumped out" by the religious rightwing.

I still have a very strong faith in a Higher power that I choose to call God,
but the details of my belief system are a private matter between me and my God. I feel no need to wear my religion on my sleeve so others will think that I'm special. I'm just a poor soul in this world trying to make it "one day at a time."

Peace whaaa



[edit on 10-10-2005 by whaaa]

[edit on 10-10-2005 by whaaa]

Originally posted by apex
Okay, the title gives the gist of this post: Could someone please tell me why the world is becoming secular, as there seems to be some reason why loads of people now reject religion.
I really don't understand why religion is dying, it makes no sense, unless it is because we seem to be in the age of Materialism and selfishness.

I'm not sure I agree with your premise. I believe many people (at least in western culture) are turning away from organized religion but not necessarily spirituality. I percieve that although many people have lost faith in the formal institutions, this does not necessarily correlate to people losing a sense of spirituality. If anything, I think there's a growing sense of people undertaking a spiritual search that leads them away from the traditional institutions, which have, in many cases, given up their primary mission in favor of a political/financial/control direction.

Spiritual things are discerned spiritually, and the fact is, you don't need an Earthly intercessor. Hey, people that like the fellowship and social aspects of organized formal church, that's fine. But it's sure not a requirement.

The title of this thread seems to indicate that if you do not belong to any particular religion, you must be atheist. This assumption does not take into account the many people who do believe in God, yet do not want to align themselves with any particualr "ism".

This is due to our spiritual advancement, and realizations. To conform to a rigid belief system is to deny those.

[edit on 10/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

God himself will send a strong delusion causing the unbelievers of the world to believe a lie. This lie will place them on the side of antichrist against God and they will be damned. They will be damned because they did not believe the truth and loved to do evil.

Hold it right there... do you have any idea of what you are saying?

Lets look at this logically, shall we.

Firstly... GOD HIMSELF sends the delusion. The unbelievers are screwed. God cuts off their chances of believing and obtaining salvation. Who is to blame for this? The unbelievers or god?

Secondly... if the Father of the Lie according to your bible is Satan, then what does that make god?

Thirdly... if they are being decieved and screwed around by your god, what do you expect them to do?

Lastly... They will be damned because they did not believe the truth and loved to do evil. Even though your god misled them to believe the lie.

In conclusion: Damned if they do, damned if they dont. Once again, proving what a bloodthirsty god you worship.

Originally posted by Willow_Dryad

God himself will send a strong delusion causing the unbelievers of the world to believe a lie. This lie will place them on the side of antichrist against God and they will be damned. They will be damned because they did not believe the truth and loved to do evil.

Hold it right there... do you have any idea of what you are saying?

Lets look at this logically, shall we.

Firstly... GOD HIMSELF sends the delusion. The unbelievers are screwed. God cuts off their chances of believing and obtaining salvation. Who is to blame for this? The unbelievers or god?

Secondly... if the Father of the Lie according to your bible is Satan, then what does that make god?

Thirdly... if they are being decieved and screwed around by your god, what do you expect them to do?

Lastly... They will be damned because they did not believe the truth and loved to do evil. Even though your god misled them to believe the lie.

In conclusion: Damned if they do, damned if they dont. Once again, proving what a bloodthirsty god you worship.

Thanks for pointing this out. Its this type of crazy thinking that drove me from the clutches of organized religion. Just more fear mongering, control freakin, life denying, inqusitional type of thinking. It really astonishes me why a vengeful God would be prefered over a loving God. Guilt maybe.



[edit on 11-10-2005 by whaaa]

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

You left out an important part of that scripture. God sends a strong delusion and allows them to believe a lie because they have already refused to accept his love and receive eternal salvation. Right now you have the opportunity to accept God’s free gift but you have refused. In time you will lose the option to accept it because your heart will become so hard against God that it will be impossible for you to change.

God doesn’t want you to turn away from Him but if you continue to do it He will eventually give you over to your base lusts and wickedness forever. God himself places a restraining spirit into all of us that diminishes our capacity for evil, some have called this a conscience. In time, God will remove that restraining force and allow mankind to be as evil as they are truly capable.

God has done this before and He will do it again in the last days. It’s not too late but the hour is coming when you will no longer seek God. Seek Him now while He may still be found and repent. Turn away from your sin and ask His forgiveness. Time is running out.

A True Christian
In These Last Days,

James

Originally posted by Machine
You left out an important part of that scripture.

So did you.. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

God has done this before and He will do it again in the last days. It’s not too late but the hour is coming when you will no longer seek God. Seek Him now while He may still be found and repent. Turn away from your sin and ask His forgiveness. Time is running out.

A True Christian
In These Last Days,

James

The meek will inherit the earth not the self righteous so we'll be fine [especially with all that extra room left over from the ascended.. I've already made plans to turn the vatican into a backpackers- it's going to be great!].
Thanks anyway.

[edit on 11-10-2005 by riley]

Riley,

That scripture you quoted is often quoted out of proper context by someone who doesn’t understand the Bible. The Bible does not forbid anyone from pointing out wrong teachings it’s a responsibility for all Christians to do. The type of judgment that the Bible doesn’t allow us to make is on the final state of any person. We do not know how God may or may not change their lives to bring them to Him. We are also commanded to make right judgments when we judge.

It seems in these last days the only scripture people can quote (out of context) is the infamous, “judge not…” No one wants to hear the truth so they quote that scripture thinking that it will shut the mouth of the Christian trying to speak to them.

Sad indeed.


A True Christian
In These Last Days,

James

Originally posted by Machine
Riley,

That scripture you quoted is often quoted out of proper context by someone who doesn’t understand the Bible.

Wow. You are still judging.. I understand it completly.

The Bible does not forbid anyone from pointing out wrong teachings it’s a responsibility for all Christians to do. The type of judgment that the Bible doesn’t allow us to make is on the final state of any person. We do not know how God may or may not change their lives to bring them to Him. We are also commanded to make right judgments when we judge.

You came on this thread with your 'death to the heathen' rant making judgements about the moral integrity of non christians and assuming they are all 'sinners'/evil. Jesus was making a statement against hypicricey.. you obviously are more interested in condemning others than actually ACTING christlike and setting an example [accepting, understanding, tolerent, peaceful etc.]. I think you should try remove that plank from your eye.. it is blinding you.

[edit on 11-10-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by apex
Could someone please tell me why the world is becoming secular

Freedom on the march. America led the way. Thank you founding father's for freedom from tyranny.

Any more questions?

As usual, Rant, you are wrong. One of these days you will listen to me when I tell you the facts, the truth. When that day comes, we will allow you to take the bag off your head!

Strange that you say the world is becoming more secular when it thinks it is becoming more spiritual. Fact of the matter is, we are engineered to be spiritual, to seek out God. there are very few people out there who are truly "athiestic", which is the toughest religion to follow as it goes aginst how we as humans were programmed to behave.

If you mean that it seems there is a falling away from the God of Abraham, why is this surprising? All one has to do is read how it will be to understand as we are now living in those days.

just because I don't participate in an organized religion does not mean
I don't belive in a God. The problem is orgaized religion, we don't need
them. Listen to the man Jesus who said in matthew 6:5-6 " and when thou
prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy father which is in secret... religions want
power and money, they are the ones that are crumbuling not a belive in
a God. How many of us belive in a God but do not participate in an organized religion?