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China now has 837.9 Bil of forex reserve

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posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Also if America and the Western allies decide to sop trading then we appeal to WTO and each every single nation that goes against WTO has to then pay for the cost of not trading with China.



pay back for not trading?
, while i highly doubt America and the rest of the west would stop trading with China, we do not pay anithing for stopping trade with China. its like a merchant refuses to trade with another merchant and that merchant complains that he has to pay him money for not trading.




posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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*sigh*


Originally posted by chinawhite
Exactly, nothing.
The reason is that he wasn't replying to you


Is that why the very first sentence he said was directed at me, and there was no change of paragraph or redirect towards another poster?




And china releases it US bonds and Cash reserves.


And then the rest of the world buys them up, because US debt is considered among the safetst investments in the world.


Yes, it would hurt the US a bit, but nothing like the collapse China would feel.



China is buying your debt.


Good for them. The Chinese economy is still at the mercy of the US, and the US can still survive without China quite easily.




Because economics dont work like that.


Yes, unfortunately for China economics DO in fact work like that. When your economy is based off of exports, and suddenly no one buys your exports, your economy goes into shock.

Simply put, without the West buying Chinas goods, Chinas economy will go down the toilet.



China is building up her domestic demand. soon (ten years) chian will have 300million-400million middle class workers.


Source?



In the future china is not going to have a shortage of customers. but manufractures that cant keep up with demand


That is more optimistic then even China is. Their whole economy is based off of inexpensive labor. I don't see that changing for a few generations at the least, and that is assuming that Chinas economy doesn't experience a correction, which EVERY economy does.




Egotistic aren't cha


No, just truthfull. The US is the dominant nation in the world - everyone agrees on that. The US has stated, on many occasions, that it will do everything in it's power to prevent any nation from reaching a point where it could rival the US.

These aren't my thoughts or wishes, these are the thoughts and stated goals of the US.




Their is no crisis because of the population control.


Obviously if there were not a population crises to begin with, there would be no need for population control, eh?



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 07:10 PM
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There was no original population crisis with China we realized quite early on if that the populatio gets to big our economy won't support it.

Small price to pay for economic prosperity.



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 08:05 PM
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I don't know what this big fuss about China being supported by America because China only exports 21.1% of its export goods to America followed by Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Germany. I'll give a link but I need to find the site first.

I say that India with a population control might have a bright future but without one, India WILL be in ruins.

The one child policy is for the benefit of the FUTURE. If you already have a population disaster in your hand then your government really sucks and couldn't see the crisis before it happened. Always look a few steps ahead of you.

It's not about westerners don't buy CHinese goods, its that they can't STOP buying CHinese goods. Business is different politics, politics has boundaries, business is everyone for themselves, as long as they make a buck, they'd do anything. And with China, they make a buck. Thats as easy as I can state it.



[edit on 19-10-2005 by COWlan]

[edit on 19-10-2005 by COWlan]



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
There was no original population crisis with China we realized quite early on if that the populatio gets to big our economy won't support it.

Small price to pay for economic prosperity.


yes, the few rich gets richer and fewer rich dudes, while the poor get poorer and there would be more poors...

errrr... do i make sense?



posted on Oct, 19 2005 @ 08:39 PM
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Uhh, this isn't France in 1775. There is no aristocracy in China, there is no segragation in the population. Rich don't always get richer, poor won't always stay poor. China has improved so much in the last 15 years its so impossible for Americans to understand. China changed from a place where elementary school students have to pick pig grass (a certain kind of plant that pigs eat) to trade pencils with erasers on them and papers. Kids would be happy for days if they get those "prizes". Americans always had everything (at least the white Americans). There wasn't huge change in America, but the change in China is impossible to understand unless you've experienced China.

As an old Chinese saying goes "Can't be rich for 3 generations".



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 01:15 AM
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Hmmm. perhaps. GM modified crops only work if you have ariable land to grow them on. WHile the 3 Gorges dam will help by preventing flooding in China's breadbasket, there still are way to many mouths to feed.



While oil is everybodies weakspot, what about food? The huge ramp up in industrial capacity and production has impacted the environement quite a bit a fact that has the CCP trying to toughen standards. THis also is and will impact the production of food. How do you feed that many people? You import, import, import.



I think China realizes this problem and thats why they are hoping genetically engineered rice will help solve this problem. Shrinking acreage, falling water tables and a population that is expected to grow significantly beyond 1.3 billion could make food a very big problem.


You guys need to look at some facts before you jump to these conclusions. What do you know about the Chinese agricultural industry? You might think of the Gobi Desert and little arable land, on a percentage of total(15.4%), but their arable land is almost as large as Mongolia (ranked 4th among countries for amount of arable land). Also, only 1/12 their arable land is actually in use for permanent crops. They have 20% of the worlds population, living on 7% of the land used for crops. The obviously don’t consume as much as everyone else and this might be why you say they have too many mouths to feed.

What isn’t true though is that they import, import, import and that they will rely on GM rice. GM rice has been talked about, but it hasn’t been approved for use in the Chinese crops. Also, looking at the food import/export statistics, they have exported way more than they import. They for a long time have produced way more than they use. For instance, rice import was valued at 96,532,000 in 2003 while rice export was valued at 494,662,000 in 2003. A counter example is that milk imports are valued at 322,224,00 and milk exports at 53,735,000. On the whole though, the agricultural (food only and not cotton or other non-food agricultural products) imports in 2003 was valued at 6 billion while exports were valued at 17.5 billion in 2003. That is just about 3 times as much exporting than importing in food products. Agricultural exports have outpaced imports for most years since back in 1945.They have been self-sustaining in food for a while now. This has changed recently (last 2 years) with China joining the WTO (2001), and starting to import more than they export, but this is a recent phenomenon and we will see if It will continue which looking at increases in food production over the years (ranked 9th of 157 countries in rate of production increase), might not be the case. You can see food as a problem, but having 4 televisions sets can be viewed as a problem too in that you don’t have one in both your bathrooms. The recent trend towards importing food isn’t so much of a bad thing, as it shows that they are able to rely on the industrial exports to subsidize the things they need.

It is getting much better in the food area as well. With a population growth rate of .58%, it is easy for even modest gains in agricultural production (which aren’t modest in China) to improve in production vs. population. Also, diversification is not dependant on agriculture as much (they have large industry for export now) so they are moving (and trends show this) non-food agricultural production to food production.


Yes, unfortunately for China economics DO in fact work like that. When your economy is based off of exports, and suddenly no one buys your exports, your economy goes into shock.

Simply put, without the West buying Chinas goods, Chinas economy will go down the toilet.


Are you really questioning the beneficial nature of having a country who accumulates wealth through many exports? Having a trade deficit is much more worrisome than being reliant on exports.

Have you ever looked at the tags on American/western goods. Where are they made? You see China everywhere. If you “suddenly” shut off trade with China, U.S./western companies with Chinese factories (Nike, computer companies, etc.) will have no supply chain tell they build a factory in some other low income country like India or Africa or do it in the West yet have prices get hiked. It is quite possible that you couldn’t build another U.S./European computer for another year. The vast majority of DVD players are made in China (for example), so you won’t have those for a while either. In 2004, the U.S. alone imported 45 billion of power generation equipment, 42 billion in electrical machinery and equipment, 4 billion in steel/Iron and 3 billion in optics/medical equipment from China. These 4 items exports from China to the U.S. were up from the previous year of 2003 by 46.3%, 38.8 %, 64.0% and 17.1 % respectively. The list goes on and on. Looking at the increasing integration of the U.S. and China, I would not wait for China to begin to rival U.S. supremacy to cut off trade because at that point, it will be much worse to actually cut off trade for the U.S. and not as bad for China. You could then shock your country or the west less if you did it slowly, but then it won’t hurt China’s as much either.

There is also the factor that if you don’t exploit Chinese labor with investment, other countries that aren’t against it (lets say we exclude the West in this exercise) will step in with their capital and then begin to threaten the U.S.’s supremacy. Japan is a non-western country that comes to mind who already have 1/3 the economy and are investing in China.



Good for them. The Chinese economy is still at the mercy of the US, and the US can still survive without China quite easily.


The U.S. economy will still exist despite the U.S.’s support. I agree it would be much worse for China without the west, but the U.S. is a much different story.

You know, if you are going to play economic war scenerios. Do you know what would happen if China set a date that they would drop all their U.S. currency a week from the announcement and also sell all their government bonds? Suddenly, you are looking at a crash in the dollar. People in other countries would say “I don’t want dollars, they will be worth 10% less in a week“ I will charge you 10% more then. Then people realize that, and the mind set that they will become increasingly worthless will cause more and more people to jump out. The cycle continues. People wouldn’t want to hold onto their dollars, they exchange them (banks, countries), and then you have the market flooded. People might stop taking dollars as the uncertainty in their worth would be high. The same would go for government bonds. If China sold them cheap, why buy from U.S, when you can get from China. U.S. debt therefore isn’t being subsidized by China and you also don’t have as much coming form other sources as they are buying bonds from China.


I say again, without the US and it's money, China is screwed. What happens when the US, and every one of it's western allies decide that India, or Africa (as FredT pointed out) can do it's labor for them? What then? China will have litterally tens of millions (maybe even hundreds) of people without jobs.

Not only that, but then the realestate market crashes because all of that industrial land doesn't have any use.


When they decide that they will go to Africa or India? It is more like “if they decide…”.

You jump from U.S. to U.S. and western allies too much. You say without U.S.’ money China is screwed, but then a sentence later (supposedly meant to support the topic sentence) you say “What happens when the US, and everyone of it’s western allies decide…”.

China everyday will do better and better without U.S. support. I think they could handle it ok right now, but even better in the future as more production (especially high tech) moves there (if they produce what they need, they don’t need imports and don‘t need exports to pay for imports). Also, the countries export increase in one year is probably more than the lack of exports to U.S. will decrease exports. For instance, exports in 2004 went up 35.4% over the previous year. If U.S. cut out at that moment, it might just neutralize their export increase for that year and nothing more. European and U.S. cutting trade would be different. Still 6 out of 10 of China’s biggest trading partners are in Asia.


When that happens, and it will if China continues to try and challange US supremecy, the Chinese economy will be destroyed.


Only time will tell…..



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
And then the rest of the world buys them up, because US debt is considered among the safetst investments in the world.


Who has the money to buy them up?

If america abandoms china then it will move to another place, yeah?

this only places americas trade deficit on other countries. America will still have the trade deficit but will also lose 40billion dollars on its exports.



Good for them. The Chinese economy is still at the mercy of the US, and the US can still survive without China quite easily.


If the US could survive without china then the americans would have let china go after the cold war or wouldn't have signed a MFN with them.

Because they value trade with china.

China not only buys 40billion dollars of american goods, but buys over 500billion off other countries to.

If the chiense economy is de-stablized then a lot of countries around the world will feel the pinch.




Yes, unfortunately for China economics DO in fact work like that. When your economy is based off of exports, and suddenly no one buys your exports, your economy goes into shock.


Chinas economy is export growth driven but not suported by exports alone. go check the break down of chians economic sectors.




Source?


english.people.com.cn...

I came up with that figure by using a average growth of the chiense economy. between 6-7%GDP over 10years.

Chinese middle class standards is a lot smaller than the american middle class.




Obviously if there were not a population crises to begin with, there would be no need for population control, eh?


They put population controls to advert a crisis.

China at this momment can still support its population with the land it has.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
There was no original population crisis with China we realized quite early on if that the populatio gets to big our economy won't support it.

Small price to pay for economic prosperity.


Go look up how many Chinese people still live in caves.

I dare you.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by COWlan
I don't know what this big fuss about China being supported by America because China only exports 21.1% of its export goods to America followed by Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Germany. I'll give a link but I need to find the site first.


OK, here is the big deal.

21% to the US. That is a huge sum in and of it's self. On top of that, the next four highest are ALL huge allies of the US - especially the first three. Imagine China losing it's 5 top trade partners.



I say that India with a population control might have a bright future but without one, India WILL be in ruins.


I do not dispute that. I only say that it does not mater to the US. India can be everything China is to the US and more. On top of having the population to produce goods for the US (and do understand India would love to take that export market away from China), India is actually an emerging ally of the US, where as China is clearly trying to challenge the US.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame China for this. They are looking out for China, just like every nation looks out for themselves.


The one child policy is for the benefit of the FUTURE. If you already have a population disaster in your hand then your government really sucks and couldn't see the crisis before it happened. Always look a few steps ahead of you.


Look, when you limit people to ONE kid because you have too many people, you have a population problem. You can say it is preventative, and that very may well be true, but frankly when you are effectively hoping to replace 2 people with one, it screams of crises.



It's not about westerners don't buy CHinese goods, its that they can't STOP buying CHinese goods. Business is different politics, politics has boundaries, business is everyone for themselves, as long as they make a buck, they'd do anything. And with China, they make a buck. Thats as easy as I can state it.


In a way, I completely agree with you. China, right now, IS the place to go for cheap labor. No doubt about that.

The problem for China becomes when the US puts a huge tariff on China.

When that happens, every company that wants to sell products to the US will change where they make their products because it is cheaper for them to do so. Literally over night, China will have gone from THE place to make goods (because of cheap prices) to the place NOT to make goods (because of expensive prices).

Believe me, it will happen eventually. There is no shortage of nations that would take Chinas manufacturing market away from them.

To say the US will allow China to aproach it's equal is simply naive.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man

Go look up how many Chinese people still live in caves.

I dare you.


A trick question. lol.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Are you really questioning the beneficial nature of having a country who accumulates wealth through many exports? Having a trade deficit is much more worrisome than being reliant on exports.

Have you ever looked at the tags on American/western goods. Where are they made? You see China everywhere. If you “suddenly” shut off trade with China, U.S./western companies with Chinese factories (Nike, computer companies, etc.) will have no supply chain tell they build a factory in some other low income country like India or Africa or do it in the West yet have prices get hiked. It is quite possible that you couldn’t build another U.S./European computer for another year. The vast majority of DVD players are made in China (for example), so you won’t have those for a while either. In 2004, the U.S. alone imported 45 billion of power generation equipment, 42 billion in electrical machinery and equipment, 4 billion in steel/Iron and 3 billion in optics/medical equipment from China. These 4 items exports from China to the U.S. were up from the previous year of 2003 by 46.3%, 38.8 %, 64.0% and 17.1 % respectively. The list goes on and on. Looking at the increasing integration of the U.S. and China, I would not wait for China to begin to rival U.S. supremacy to cut off trade because at that point, it will be much worse to actually cut off trade for the U.S. and not as bad for China. You could then shock your country or the west less if you did it slowly, but then it won’t hurt China’s as much either.


You make a decent argument.

However, you assume that there will be a 'shock' to the US and the Western world if trade with China is shut off.

That is anything but true.

In the real world, everyone will see this coming. It will start in the form of trade agreements between the US and other states (I picked India because it is the one nation with a population comparable to China, but it could just as easy be a south American country or African country). You will then see the US gradually make insentives to companies that make products in other countries.

Lastly, once all of the large corporations have switched where they produce their goods, the US will make an unreasonably high tax on imported goods from China.

Every big company will know it's going down well in advance (after all, who pays for political campaigns?), and China will be left out in the cold. Frankly, your argument about how much China exports to the US works in my arguments favor.

You can always find a new place for cheap labor. You can't always find a new consumer.



There is also the factor that if you don’t exploit Chinese labor with investment, other countries that aren’t against it (lets say we exclude the West in this exercise) will step in with their capital and then begin to threaten the U.S.’s supremacy. Japan is a non-western country that comes to mind who already have 1/3 the economy and are investing in China.


I am sorry, but do you really think Japan of all countries wants to see China powerfull?

Japan might as well be part of the US for political purposes - they agree with the US on about every issue - including China.

Japan, like the rest of the world, will get cheap labor from else where.




The U.S. economy will still exist despite the U.S.’s support. I agree it would be much worse for China without the west, but the U.S. is a much different story.

You know, if you are going to play economic war scenerios. Do you know what would happen if China set a date that they would drop all their U.S. currency a week from the announcement and also sell all their government bonds? Suddenly, you are looking at a crash in the dollar. People in other countries would say “I don’t want dollars, they will be worth 10% less in a week“ I will charge you 10% more then. Then people realize that, and the mind set that they will become increasingly worthless will cause more and more people to jump out. The cycle continues. People wouldn’t want to hold onto their dollars, they exchange them (banks, countries), and then you have the market flooded. People might stop taking dollars as the uncertainty in their worth would be high. The same would go for government bonds. If China sold them cheap, why buy from U.S, when you can get from China. U.S. debt therefore isn’t being subsidized by China and you also don’t have as much coming form other sources as they are buying bonds from China.


Except that China can not do this without screwing their own economy. The world economy is based around the dollar, thus if China were to try and destroy the dollar, they would destroy all of their buyers, and thus their own economy.

Their economy is directly based on the western economy, which in turn is based off of the US economy.

If they flood almost 1 trillion dollars worth of debt that they purchased they would go into one of the biggest economic collapses in history. Don't you get it? When you purchase debt, it is under the assumption that you get your money back with interest. If you lose money, it hurts you. Thats how banks go under.

China is no different. They can't just give up 800 billion worth of US debt, because they themselves would suddenly be half a trillion+ in the hole.

Mean while, 1 trillion dollars makes up less then 20% of the US budget.

Yes, it would hurt the US - a lot - no doubting that. But it is something that China could not do without hurting themselves more then the US.



When they decide that they will go to Africa or India? It is more like “if they decide…”.


If?

Why wouldn't the US go to a different country that could do exactly what Chian does?




You jump from U.S. to U.S. and western allies too much. You say without U.S.’ money China is screwed, but then a sentence later (supposedly meant to support the topic sentence) you say “What happens when the US, and everyone of it’s western allies decide…”.


OK, I'll lay it out to you. The US, Japan, Taiwan, UK, and the rest of it's allies are all in the same boat together.

Do you think any ally of the US wants to see China become powerful? Of course not. Their own power and intrests are inforced by the US. Why would they want to see a nation able to counter their enforcer? The US alone controls between 15 and 20% of the world economy. When you add it's strategic allies, you are talking nearly half of the world economy.

Get it yet?




China everyday will do better and better without U.S. support. I think they could handle it ok right now, but even better in the future as more production (especially high tech) moves there (if they produce what they need, they don’t need imports and don‘t need exports to pay for imports). Also, the countries export increase in one year is probably more than the lack of exports to U.S. will decrease exports. For instance, exports in 2004 went up 35.4% over the previous year. If U.S. cut out at that moment, it might just neutralize their export increase for that year and nothing more. European and U.S. cutting trade would be different. Still 6 out of 10 of China’s biggest trading partners are in Asia.


Again, you do make a good point, but under value US influence.

Simply stated, when (and at this point I do mean when) the US attempts to undercut China, the majority of the rest of the world will come with it. The US is great allies with all of Chinas greatest export partners in asia (Taiwan, Japan), and the majority of Europe (NATO).

That represents the vast majority of buyers for Chinese goods.



Only time will tell…..


Time will tell.

But honestly, I don't think the above situation (any kind of economic war) will be needed.

As any decent economist knows, an economy works on a swing... They go up, and they go down...they expand, and then they slow.

In Chinas case, it is my - and a lot of other peoples - belief that China has expanded much too quickly, and will soon self correct. It is a buble that will soon burst, much like the real estate market in the US and Australia.

It's just the way things work.



posted on Oct, 20 2005 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
Who has the money to buy them up?


Honestly, they would not all be bought up at original value. Hence, it hurts China.

Yes, American credit would take a hit there. I don't deny that. But, it is not something that would kill the US... Send it into a recession - absolutely.



If america abandoms china then it will move to another place, yeah?


I believe the US would find a (or many) new places to make it's goods. There are a lot of people in this world, and a lot of countries. All want jobs, and all want the US buying from them. The US will (and I believe has been) setting up the ground work for a new source of cheap labor. India, Africa, and South America are all places the US could look.

On the other hand, if the US were to exert it's considerable political leverage and bring it's allies into this game (which it would), China would suddenly be without the majority of it's top 10 consumers. That alone is enough to cripple any economy.


this only places americas trade deficit on other countries. America will still have the trade deficit but will also lose 40billion dollars on its exports.


Very true. I completely agree.

But here is the thing... 40 billion dollars is NOTHING to the US in return for neutralizing an enemy. Hell, the US spends 4 HUNDRED billion a year on defence alone. We would gain much more then we lost by cutting China off.



If the US could survive without china then the americans would have let china go after the cold war or wouldn't have signed a MFN with them.
Because they value trade with china.


Oh, no doubt we favor trade with China now.

We are a capitalist society, and right now China is THE place to go for goods. They are the cheapest, so we use them.

The problem (for China) becomes when the US views them as a threat (which we already do).

Hell, it's plain for any person to see the US has already started with it's forced isolation on China. Just look at which nations the US has recently become strategic allies with. Look at how the US is 'boxing her in'. Look at how the US is striking all of Chinas allies. It is all part of a systematic plan to prevent China from becoming a threat.


China not only buys 40billion dollars of american goods, but buys over 500billion off other countries to.

If the chiense economy is de-stablized then a lot of countries around the world will feel the pinch.


Yes, I agree completely.

I am not saying that such an economic attack on China will not have influence on the US (or any other nations) economy. It will. The question is, is it worth it to keep US dominance.

To the US government, yes, it is.




Chinas economy is export growth driven but not suported by exports alone. go check the break down of chians economic sectors.


No economy is based on one factor. China would be able to survive. The US doesn't care if China is destroyed, what they care about is pushing her down so she can't challenge the US.

And I want to make it clear right now, this is my honest view of how the US views China. Our government looks at China and sees a rival. They see a country that could upset our power. The US really doesn't want an equal. What country would?

China is the only country in the world right now that seems like it could in the future challenge the US. Take it as a compliment. The US is concerned with Chinas increasing power. That alone shows that she has come into her own.

EDIT: fix quotes

[edit on 20-10-2005 by American Mad Man]



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
Honestly, they would not all be bought up at original value. Hence, it hurts China.
Yes, American credit would take a hit there. I don't deny that. But, it is not something that would kill the US... Send it into a recession - absolutely.


If american bonds start flooding the market it is going to cause a crisis in the american economy. That much money in one alrge sum dumped all at once is going to hurt.

Also what other country would want to collect cash reserves?





I believe the US would find a (or many) new places to make it's goods. There are a lot of people in this world, and a lot of countries. All want jobs, and all want the US buying from them. The US will (and I believe has been) setting up the ground work for a new source of cheap labor. India, Africa, and South America are all places the US could look.


Its not how cheap the labour is(because a lot more people work cheaper than chinese workers.)

Its how eficent and how fast the goods are made and delivered. china took 26 years to build up this network of suppliers manufractures and delivery. The reason the west comes to china is not because of the cheap larbour but all those points up there

Other countries that could take chinas place doesn't have the infrastructure nor the resources to build this kind of thing.

China is a large country and was able to organize the funds and organisation to create the opportunities for these western companies.




On the other hand, if the US were to exert it's considerable political leverage and bring it's allies into this game (which it would), China would suddenly be without the majority of it's top 10 consumers. That alone is enough to cripple any economy.


And how can you be to certain of that?

These countries trade with america because of what the americans buy, but china is their largest trade market. No country in the world would give that up. America tricked japan with the plaza accord because japan was to reliant on america but now japan and china are teir own biggest trade partners.

Also australia will not give up their trade. Outlined in a speech by our forigen minister.

Germany will Not.

Taiwan- Will not. taiwans economy relies on china to much.

Hong Kong- No explaination.

France- The french, come on. they would sell nukes to terriotist if the price is right

South Korea- They already want you out of their country.



How big is american leverage in the following countries i just mentioned above.? From what i know it isn't very big.





Very true. I completely agree.
But here is the thing... 40 billion dollars is NOTHING to the US in return for neutralizing an enemy. Hell, the US spends 4 HUNDRED billion a year on defence alone. We would gain much more then we lost by cutting China off.


Your just thinking the face value of that figure.

How much jobs are lost with 40bilion dollars of american exports. How many compaines are completly bankrupt after america doesn't trade with china.

The Vast majority of export compaines in china are western owned. Chinese brands mainly sell in the chinese market. If you go to chian now you will not see brands like sony or LG having massive sales but brands like Haer or legend.

Not much chinese compaines will lose to much money after america has massive tariffs but mainly western.


Anyhow what american government can pull off something like that.? knowing the amount of jobs america will lose



Hell, it's plain for any person to see the US has already started with it's forced isolation on China. Just look at which nations the US has recently become strategic allies with. Look at how the US is 'boxing her in'. Look at how the US is striking all of Chinas allies. It is all part of a systematic plan to prevent China from becoming a threat.


You mean india.?

A couple of months before america signed that thing with india. china also signed something with india. Do you think the indians are stupid?

They play both sides.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also i mentioned this before,

India is more a threat to america than china is. Indian workers go for the white collar jobs which employs the majority of americans. All the americans are doing now is passing laws protecting industries which died out long ago.

America is just building up another enemy. The indians wont just be american allies like the british or japan but want a equal share.


America cant stop all her future enemies, because the future world is not going to be based on one dominating power not even two.

Its going to be a multi-polar world. Or something like the the western powers before WW1.

End note.

The american government cant pass lsws which will harm american jobs. and they dont have the leverage anymore to dictate what is going on.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 11:28 AM
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That is for true. China has one of the best delivery systems and manufractures archetectures in the world. However, many western people still think the success of China's economy relies on the "SLAVE" system or prisoners.

Come on, cheap labor doesn't equal to SLAVE, OK? If so , there are still many SLAVEs in north american and europe. Also, do you think there are 100 million prisoner in China? Use your head, man.

Sometimes, I really feel boring and tired to clarify this again and again.
Most western people only konw or just focus on the dark side of China but try to ignore(or pretend to?) the bright side of China.

Personally speaking, China makes cheap products with acceptable quality. It is not very good if compared with the expensive goods from Japan or US. However, most people can live with it. That is enough.


Originally posted by chinawhite
Its not how cheap the labour is(because a lot more people work cheaper than chinese workers.)

Its how eficent and how fast the goods are made and delivered. china took 26 years to build up this network of suppliers manufractures and delivery. The reason the west comes to china is not because of the cheap larbour but all those points up there

Other countries that could take chinas place doesn't have the infrastructure nor the resources to build this kind of thing.

China is a large country and was able to organize the funds and organisation to create the opportunities for these western companies.



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 03:27 PM
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Cowlan, Cowlan, Cowlan...

I see you've reverted to your usual Sinonationalistic rants based your shrill google-researched exaggeration of Indian problems


Will once again have to post a rebuttal later, to which you will no doubt once again post random links five to ten years out of date again, to which I will then have to waste my time writing another essay again, to which you will ignore me and this thread.

ATS-India ad nauseum. *sigh*



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by google_abcd
That is for true. China has one of the best delivery systems and manufractures archetectures in the world. However, many western people still think the success of China's economy relies on the "SLAVE" system or prisoners.

Come on, cheap labor doesn't equal to SLAVE, OK? If so , there are still many SLAVEs in north american and europe. Also, do you think there are 100 million prisoner in China? Use your head, man.

Sometimes, I really feel boring and tired to clarify this again and again.
Most western people only konw or just focus on the dark side of China but try to ignore(or pretend to?) the bright side of China.

Personally speaking, China makes cheap products with acceptable quality. It is not very good if compared with the expensive goods from Japan or US. However, most people can live with it. That is enough.


Is that directed at me?



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 10:33 PM
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I think China needs to put its self in check before it thinks it is so great.

In case it needs a reminder, the US should tell it two words:
Hiroshima and Nagasaki

ie. If you think we were that good back then, imagine what we have now.

Bring it!!!




posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by Are u for real???
I think China needs to put its self in check before it thinks it is so great.

In case it needs a reminder, the US should tell it two words:
Hiroshima and Nagasaki


and china doesn't have nukes?



ie. If you think we were that good back then, imagine what we have now.

Bring it!!!



You need reality check.

You nuke us we nuke you



posted on Oct, 21 2005 @ 11:13 PM
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China has 400 nuclear warheads, 150 tactical nukes, 10-30 nuclear ICBM weapons that can hit pretty much anywhere in the US (not all of them, launched from 3 locations and you have two versions with 12,000 km range and 13,000 km range). Each of those nukes has a 3 megaton warhead which is 100 times more powerful then Fatman.

Can you take them out? Not likely. There are decoy silos with silos in mountaineous regions contained in concrete bunkers, while their launch preperation is in the 30-60 minute range. Taking them out with conventional air ability won't work very well. China operates 3,500 aircraft, 1,000 surface to air missiles and several thousand anti-air artillery pieces. Penetration won't be easy. Are you going to use stealth? Stealth works in some countries but it is thought that China has radar of enough ability to detect it. You can't rely on the nuclear weapons themselves because their response time would be too quick.

All in all, the idea of using Hiroshima and Nagasaki as an example to not mess with the U.S. lasted about two minutes after the event when the Soviet Union (with China as an ally) developed and tested their own version.




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