Aerojet, Parsons, Hubbard, Crowley & the OTO

So the founder of Aerojet and Jet Propulsion Laboratory Jack Parsons, was also once Crowley's associate and head of the OTO...who helped start Scientology with L Ron Hubbard based on some OTO /Golden Dawn ideas? And that L Ron Hubbard married a girl Jack Parson's was using for ritual, rescued her as part of some governmental thing and later said she was Jack Pason's daughter?

This is the fanciful story en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org... and countless websites throw out.

If you're too believe that OTO is a branchoff of the Illuminati/Grand Temple Orientis in Freemasonry, than this has to be one of the strangest stories ever.
Any thoughts, research, history on this?

[edit on 7-10-2005 by 8bitagent]

Originally posted by 8bitagent
So the founder of Aerojet and Jet Propulsion Laboratory Jack Parsons, was also once Crowley's associate and head of the OTO...who helped start Scientology with L Ron Hubbard based on some OTO /Golden Dawn ideas? And that L Ron Hubbard married a girl Jack Parson's was using for ritual, rescued her as part of some governmental thing and later said she was Jack Pason's daughter?

A few corrections.

Parsons was a member of the O.T.O. And later became head of a Lodge, but was never the "head" of the O.T.O. At first Crowley thought Parsons had great potential, but soon started thinking him an idiot. He also had nothing to do with Scientology, that was pure Hubbard.

Parsons met the woman in question after preforming an ritual for giving "birth" to a moon child.. She later became Parsons Girlfriend, she was not his daughter... the words Moon Child prob lead to that idea.

Hubbard, in fact scammed Parsons, he took his money as well as his girl.

If you're too believe that OTO is a branchoff of the Illuminati/Grand Temple Orientis in Freemasonry, than this has to be one of the strangest stories ever.
Any thoughts, research, history on this?

Check out babalon.net... for more info on parsons. There is also 2 books about Parsons. Sex ands Rockets and Strange Angel

I'm out of town right now, and only get online from time to time at some public hotspots, so it might be a day or so between posts.

I remember reading a letter from Crowley to Parsons once, concerning L. Ron Hubbard. Crowley chastised Parsons for allowing himself to be scammed by Hubbard, saying something to the effect that "so now you've given him your girl, as well as your money".

8bit asked: "If you're too believe that OTO is a branchoff of the Illuminati/Grand Temple Orientis in Freemasonry, than this has to be one of the strangest stories ever.
Any thoughts, research, history on this?"

The O.T.O. has nothing to do with Grand Orient Masonry, nor anything to do with the original Illuminati. The VIII° of O.T.O. is called "Epopt of the Illuminati", but that's the extent of it. Originally, back in the early 20th century, O.T.O.'s members were mostly Theosophists. Today, ever since the 1960's, the O.T.O. is a hippie organization.

It's also said that in its beginnings, the O.T.O. closely resembled Ancient Gnostic schools, but then degenerated, and thus the reason for the likes of Arnold Krumm-Heller and Franz Hartmann distancing themselves from it.

For what it's worth, an interesting link:

fusionanomaly.net...

8bitagent...interesting post...I never knew about Crowleys involvement with L.Ron Hubbard and Parsons. To me, this is quite a revelation, full of naughty bits to keep me googling for awhile. Thanks. A whole new slant on one of the 20th century's most intriguing individuals has been provided to me.

Originally posted by Masonic Light Originally, back in the early 20th century, O.T.O.'s members were mostly Theosophists. Today, ever since the 1960's, the O.T.O. is a hippie organization.

I realize this may be off topic, but I have to ask...

I am always impressed with the intelligent, orderly manner in which you approach all your responses to the multitudes of posters here within Secret Societies, and please understand that I do not intend to give you grief over your statement above.

I am curious as to how you, first of all, understand the term 'Hippie' and secondly, how you associate the OTO with hippies today.

It has always been my opinion that hippies are people who have, by one way or another, tried to alienate themselves from the capitalist system through nonviolence, while still using that same system for all they need to keep body and soul together.

Is there a 'movement' still active today, which considers itself 'Hippie', or have they evolved into anarchists, a violent culture as different to hippie ideals as night is to day?

If so, who are these hippies, who are their active leaders and how does it relate to the OTO?

I was born in '46, ML...and was 18 in 1965. I am not approaching you on this issue from an ignorance of what Hippy, Yippy and Greaser ideologies are, but, I am truthfully unaware of the OTO relationship. Free Love, do what thou wilt and Crowleys love of coc aine are well known, but is there more to it that you could enlighten me on?


[edit on 9-10-2005 by masqua]

[edit on 9-10-2005 by masqua]

Today, ever since the 1960's, the O.T.O. is a hippie organization.

That could be said durring the Grady era (hippie aka pot smoking slackers), But that's not quite the case today. The "middle class" has increased in population inside the O.T.O. To tell the truth I don't know anyone in the O.T.O. (or Thelema in general) that could be called true hippies. Counter culture maybe (mostly Goths), but not hippie.

It astounds me that folk fall for secret society apologist's statements that, this group has nothing to do with that group, as arguments to defend their own.

It has to be remembered when discussing the roots, branches, twigs and fruit of groups that use anything along the lines of," Do what thou wilt", as their mantra that their altimate loyalty is to themselves and what they say or do springs from that base.

Sure alot of "good men" get hoodwinked but the groups or societies are happy to keep them as foils against the ugly truth being believed by the majority, who on the whole don't like to think that evil is widely and powerfully practiced.

Even the mason's claim that they must believe in "a" supreme being is a lie. They only have to say they do even if they don't, as at least one mason on this site has admitted.

Originally posted by masqua


I am curious as to how you, first of all, understand the term 'Hippie' and secondly, how you associate the OTO with hippies today.

From the O.T.O. members I've personally dealt with. The older O.T.O. people (DuQuette, etc.) were original Woodstock types back in the '60's, while the younger ones I'm met and spoke to have been modern day deadheads.

It has always been my opinion that hippies are people who have, by one way or another, tried to alienate themselves from the capitalist system through nonviolence, while still using that same system for all they need to keep body and soul together.

Is there a 'movement' still active today, which considers itself 'Hippie', or have they evolved into anarchists, a violent culture as different to hippie ideals as night is to day?

If so, who are these hippies, who are their active leaders and how does it relate to the OTO?

The O.T.O. began to turn hippie in the late 1950's, when many beatniks became interested in their view of alternative spirituality. The poet Allen Ginsberg, although not himself a member of O.T.O., attended the O.T.O.'s Gnostic Mass religious services regularly.

Later, during the '60's, many rock musicians became interested in Crowley's works. John Lennon became a student of Crowleyana, and had Crowley's portrait put on the cover of the Beatles' 1967 album "Sgt. Peppers' Lonely Hearts Club Band". Jimmy Page, founding member of Led Zeppelin in 1967, seriously studied Crowley for years, eventually purchasing Crowley's mansion on Loch Ness in Scotland. Timothy Leary was a student of Crowley's work, and had reinterpreted many of Crowley's Victorian era ideas, in order to modernize them, making them accessible to the '60's generation.

I was born in '46, ML...and was 18 in 1965. I am not approaching you on this issue from an ignorance of what Hippy, Yippy and Greaser ideologies are, but, I am truthfully unaware of the OTO relationship. Free Love, do what thou wilt and Crowleys love of coc aine are well known, but is there more to it that you could enlighten me on?

Personally, I don't think so. I was a hippie when i was a kid; I became interested in Zen Buddhism, Taoism, and other forms of alternative spirituality too.

I don't think that a "hippie takeover" of O.T.O. was planned in the '60's, it just sort of happened that way naturally. Crowley's writings struch a chord with many disenfranchised youth; he was a spiritual anarchist whose call for freedom was a battle cry. In the 1968 reprint of Crowley's book "The Law Is For All", Dr. Isreal Regardie wrote the introduction. Here, Regardie goes into great length describing the hippie counterculture's fondness for Crowley, and how Crowley influenced the counterculture's rise to existence.

It's also probably worth noting that Crowley considered himself a bohemian artist, just as the beatniks and hippies considered themselves. He was a poet, painter, and sculptor, and counted among his friends Oscar Wilde and Henry Miller.

Originally posted by suzy ryan


It has to be remembered when discussing the roots, branches, twigs and fruit of groups that use anything along the lines of," Do what thou wilt", as their mantra that their altimate loyalty is to themselves and what they say or do springs from that base.

"Do what thou wilt" has nothing to do with "ultimate loyalty ot themselves" or selfishness. It's impossible to understand the Thelemic doctrine of "Do what thou wilt" without understanding the religion of Thelema or Crowley's philosophy, which you have shown that you don't, nor do you care to.

In Thelemic philosophy, as is the case in all true occult philosophies, every person is torn between two "wills"; a higher will and a lower will. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" means surrending the lower will to the higher will. This, according to Thelemic philosophy, is the very reason we exist. We are incarnate in human form in order to accomplish our Higher Will. Needless to say, such a thing requires the ultimate form of discipline and self-denial.

Even the mason's claim that they must believe in "a" supreme being is a lie. They only have to say they do even if they don't, as at least one mason on this site has admitted.

Hogwash. There hasn't been any regular Mason that denied the existence of God. Why would an atheist want to become a Mason anyway? What would be the purpose? It would be like an atheist lying about believing in God just so he could join a Methodist Church, or a Jewish synagogue: what would be the point?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

The O.T.O. began to turn hippie in the late 1950's, when many beatniks became interested in their view of alternative spirituality. The poet Allen Ginsberg, although not himself a member of O.T.O., attended the O.T.O.'s Gnostic Mass religious services regularly.

Later, during the '60's, many rock musicians became interested in Crowley's works. John Lennon became a student of Crowleyana, and had Crowley's portrait put on the cover of the Beatles' 1967 album "Sgt. Peppers' Lonely Hearts Club Band". Jimmy Page, founding member of Led Zeppelin in 1967, seriously studied Crowley for years, eventually purchasing Crowley's mansion on Loch Ness in Scotland. Timothy Leary was a student of Crowley's work, and had reinterpreted many of Crowley's Victorian era ideas, in order to modernize them, making them accessible to the '60's generation.

In the 1968 reprint of Crowley's book "The Law Is For All", Dr. Isreal Regardie wrote the introduction. Here, Regardie goes into great length describing the hippie counterculture's fondness for Crowley, and how Crowley influenced the counterculture's rise to existence.

Once again you have provided volumes of material upon request. Thank you, ML...you are Helen's Lamp to a wayfarer upon fog bound seas. Lot's to follow up on.

Thanks

Originally posted by Masonic Light
"Do what thou wilt" has nothing to do with "ultimate loyalty ot themselves" or selfishness. It's impossible to understand the Thelemic doctrine of "Do what thou wilt" without understanding the religion of Thelema or Crowley's philosophy...

I'll have to disagree on the A. Crowley part here.

You may find real Thelema in the teachings of the original O.T.O. founders(see my last post), but not with A. Crowley.

Which I will expalin in a moment.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
In Thelemic philosophy, as is the case in all true occult philosophies, every person is torn between two "wills"; a higher will and a lower will. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" means surrending the lower will to the higher will. This, according to Thelemic philosophy, is the very reason we exist. We are incarnate in human form in order to accomplish our Higher Will. Needless to say, such a thing requires the ultimate form of discipline and self-denial.

True indeed.
This can be found in the etymology of Shaitan/Satan :

Amir Fatir - Hamzah: The Sound of Silence

The Gods Hu and Sa

In Egyptian metaphysics, two Gods subsisted before the manifestation of creation (what we’d call, today, the Big Bang). Those were the twin deities Hu and Sa.

Hu represents the divine will and Sa represents consciousness.

Hu is also said to be the tongue of Ptah.

These gods symbolize aspects of consciousness in the thought-free state. Hu became the master mantra used in many esoteric systems (Hung, Hum, Hua).

Among magicians the Hu/Sa became the Hum-Sah which is said to be the natural sound of the breath. It is said that during meditation a person can hear the breath making the sound Hum-Sah and that the kundalini force will become activated upon hearing that sound.

After the thought becomes stilled, an unusual high-pitched sound is often heard. This high-pitched sound is called "the Flute of God" by Eckankarists. It has been known as many other things.

The Christian Church bells symbolize the sound of this "flute."

Some people have even heard the "flute" of the Hum-Sah (Hamza) while using drugs such as coc aine. Marvin Gaye once wrote a song called "the Bells" (which was recorded by the Originals). It is possible that the affliction tinnitis is related to a premature stimulation of the Hum-Sah.

The Hum-Sah became known as "the swan" in esoteric schools and some artists depicted the process by a swan bird. The swan is a bird that is comfortable around water and the water was a symbol of the god Nu who was depicted as an infinite expanse of water.

The Egyptians didn’t use a swan to depict this, they used an ibis bird. The ibis was the hieroglyphic for the wisdom-god (faculty) Tehuti (Thoth). In fact, Tehuti’s name conceals the mantra hu within it.

In the Arabic system, Hu and Sa (Hum-Sah) became the Hamzah.

In the Quran, seven surahs begin with the mystic letters Ha Meem (H.M.) Together they make the mantra (Haam). While some Buddhist schools spell their chant Haam, they actually pronounce it "Huum" while chanting.

Suraha 40-46 of the Quran begin with Ha Meem. The fact that there are seven Ha Meem surahs symbolizes the connection of the Hum-Sah with the kundalini force.

Hu: the Divine Will

In the Egyptian system, Hu meant will. But the Arabic system associated Hu with Sa to the point that the Arabic word for Sa (Shay) came to mean will.

The Egyptians understood that two wills operated in woman and man. The "ordinary" will was symbolised as Heru(Horus)(ed: Tiphereth) while the divine will was symbolised as Tehuti(ed: Chokmah). It was the work of the initiate to bring the Heru(human)-will(ed: Human Soul) into accord with the Hu (divine) will(ed: Chokmah/Tehuti).



When the two wills were at odds, the result was (in Arabic) shaytaan. Shaytaan (Satan) actually means "two wills". (The word shayt means will and "aan" means two)...

But what I wan't to know is this: Where is the absorbing of the Human will by the Divine Will through Thelema(will power), in the teachings of A. Crowley or Jack Parsons???

How could the the Will of the Being(the Higher Nature), have anything to do with drugs, manipulation, fornication and sodomy?

All these "Thelemites" talk about Yoga and Buddhism, etc.; yet, I can hardly see it if at all.

(Though I'll bet J. Parsons and A. Crowley would have been or were fond of the Tibetan DUGPA methods).


No thanks; I'll stick with the practices taught by Huiracocha, Samael Aun Weor and the original teachings on Dzogchen, Smai-Tawi and Metu-Neter.


And let it be known that I don't consider myself to be enlightened by any means; but it would be a good start for all of us, to recognize these crafty snakes who would trick the naive into awakening negatively, through the satisfying of the animal ego.





[edit on 10-10-2005 by Tamahu]

Well HOGWASH to you too ML and how about abit of SPIN and for good measure BUBBLE, BUBBLE, TOIL AND TROUBLE. Why join anything? For the very base, human benefits of "NETWORKING". Have you got some AMWAY to sell folks too? Satan is just misunderstood and none of his fruit ever poisoned anyone.... maybe you have a bridge to sell too.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
From the O.T.O. members I've personally dealt with. The older O.T.O. people (DuQuette, etc.) were original Woodstock types back in the '60's, while the younger ones I'm met and spoke to have been modern day deadheads.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

Well I was with a group of O.T.O. members a month ago.. I sure didn't see any hippies, Eccentric yes, but no one I'd call a hippie.. now if you were talking about Wicca, or some of the new age stuff yep plenty of hippies. Truthfully I think Thelema in general has too much of a "dark image" to attract many hippies. BTW if you look at DuQuette today, he looks more like Beryl Ives than a hippie.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The O.T.O. began to turn hippie in the late 1950's, when many beatniks became interested in their view of alternative spirituality. The poet Allen Ginsberg, although not himself a member of O.T.O., attended the O.T.O.'s Gnostic Mass religious services regularly.

That could be said in the 40's (See the books on Parsons I mentioned earlier for some information on the goings on of Agape Lodge) But in the Late 50's the O.T.O. was on it's deathbed, no working Lodges, members spread far and wide, no new members, in fact when Germer (the head of the O.T.O.) died in '64 no one in the O.T.O. found out about it until 68/69.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I don't think that a "hippie takeover" of O.T.O. was planned in the '60's, it just sort of happened that way naturally. Crowley's writings struch a chord with many disenfranchised youth; he was a spiritual anarchist whose call for freedom was a battle cry. In the 1968 reprint of Crowley's book "The Law Is For All", Dr. Isreal Regardie wrote the introduction. Here, Regardie goes into great length describing the hippie counterculture's fondness for Crowley, and how Crowley influenced the counterculture's rise to existence.

Regardie also mentioned the Crowley himself would of probably thought very little of the hippies.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
"Do what thou wilt" has nothing to do with "ultimate loyalty ot themselves" or selfishness. It's impossible to understand the Thelemic doctrine of "Do what thou wilt" without understanding the religion of Thelema or Crowley's philosophy, which you have shown that you don't, nor do you care to.

In Thelemic philosophy, as is the case in all true occult philosophies, every person is torn between two "wills"; a higher will and a lower will. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" means surrending the lower will to the higher will. This, according to Thelemic philosophy, is the very reason we exist. We are incarnate in human form in order to accomplish our Higher Will. Needless to say, such a thing requires the ultimate form of discipline and self-denial.

Well there is no Thelemic doctrine of "Do what thou wilt." That's part of the problem.

Lets take it from the horses mouth
LIBER II (Liber is Latin for Book)
The Message Of The Master Therion (AKA Crowley)

Liber II

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
"There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt"
"The word of the Law is Thelema"

Thelema - means Will.
The Key to this Message is this word - Will. The first
obvious meaning of this Law is confirmed by antithesis;
"The Word of Sin is Restriction"

Again: "thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and
no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose,
delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect"

Take this carefully; it seems to imply a theory that if every
man and every woman did his and her will.the true Will.
there would be no clashing. "Every man and every woman is
a star", and each star moves in an appointed path without
interference. There is plenty of room for all; it is only
disorder that creates confusion.

Now the important bit no one reads

From these considerations it should be clear that "Do what
thou wilt" does not mean "Do what you like" It is the
apotheosis of Freedom; but it is also the strictest possible
bond.

Do what thou wilt - then do nothing else. Let nothing
deflect thee from that austere and holy task. Liberty is
absolute to do thy will; but seek to do any other thing
whatever, and instantly obstacles must arise. Every act that is
not in definite course of that one orbit is erratic, an
hindrance. Will must not be two, but one.

And this also explains why suzy's wild theories just can't happen. Any attempt to interfere with others Will will conflict with you following your Will.. and the importance of following ones Will is probably the one thing all Thelemites can agree on, both inside the O.T.O. and out. And even if somehow a small portion (say 10%) of the Australian O.T.O. have chosen to ignore the most basic of Thelemic ideals, how could 6-10 Hippies err.. people totally control the Government? (See www.billheidrick.com... for the 2000 O.T.O. demographics. Australia had 63 members)

Originally posted by Tamahu
You may find real Thelema in the teachings of the original O.T.O. founders(see my last post), but not with A. Crowley.

HUH? Crowley was the one who created Thelema as we know it. Ruess and company had nothing to do with it. (The O.T.O. was more "Masonic" leaning (but with female members)+ some Tantra.)

Originally posted by Tamahu
But what I wan't to know is this: Where is the absorbing of the Human will by the Divine Will through Thelema(will power), in the teachings of A. Crowley or Jack Parsons???

See the last line in the Crowley quote above. They are one and the same, there is only one Will.

How could the the Will of the Being(the Higher Nature), have anything to do with drugs, manipulation, fornication and sodomy?

Thelema has nothing to do with the above... that is an induvidual choice.

All these "Thelemites" talk about Yoga and Buddhism, etc.; yet, I can hardly see it if at all.

Fine Who cares? I think Samael Aun Weor is a joke, but I know you don't care what I think

Most of the flavors of occultism, really are diffrent methods of reaching the same goal.. what works for you does not work for me. and that is pretty much that.

Love is the Law, Love under will

Originally posted by Cug


Well I was with a group of O.T.O. members a month ago.. I sure didn't see any hippies, Eccentric yes, but no one I'd call a hippie.. now if you were talking about Wicca, or some of the new age stuff yep plenty of hippies. Truthfully I think Thelema in general has too much of a "dark image" to attract many hippies. BTW if you look at DuQuette today, he looks more like Beryl Ives than a hippie.

I was only musing from my own experiences with O.T.O., which was quite a few years ago. It could be that modern O.T.O. are non-hip-types, but the male O.T.O. members I come across in occult chat rooms that have pictures of themselves posted all seem to have long hair, beards, and tie-dyed Che Guevara t-shirts.

Regardie also mentioned the Crowley himself would of probably thought very little of the hippies.

I thought I recalled Regardie saying that Crowley would have embraced them. The manifestation of the Age of Aquarius, or something to that effect.

Well there is no Thelemic doctrine of "Do what thou wilt." That's part of the problem.

I would disagree. The term is so important in Thelema that Thelemites use it instead of "Hello, how are you doing today?". There is obviously a doctrinal basis, which Crowley elaborated upon many times in his writings.

And this also explains why suzy's wild theories just can't happen.

Agreed. Crowley is clear that "Do what thou wilt" doesn't mean "do you want you want". It means becoming receptive to the Higher Will in order to accomplish one's destiny.

Originally posted by Tamahu
You may find real Thelema in the teachings of the original O.T.O. founders(see my last post), but not with A. Crowley.

The original founders of O.T.O. were not Thelemites. Crowley introduced Thelema into the O.T.O., which met with high disapproval. Reuss himself approved of Crowley personally, but did not approve of Thelema.

Originally posted by Tamahu
But what I wan't to know is this: Where is the absorbing of the Human will by the Divine Will through Thelema(will power), in the teachings of A. Crowley or Jack Parsons???

Crowley's entire body of work concerns subjugating the human will to the Divine. I don't think the same can be said of Parsons. Indeed, when Crowley discovered that Parsons and Wilfred Smith were literally trying to create a "moonchild", which Crowley had only described symbolically, he called them "morons". Crowley was not only misunderstood by the profane world, but also among his most devoted disciples. This continues to be the case even today, and is why the Thelemic legacy is rather questionable.

How could the the Will of the Being(the Higher Nature), have anything to do with drugs, manipulation, fornication and sodomy?

It doesn't, nor does Crowley claim it to be. Many cultures and religions use some sort of psychoactive drug for religious purposes. For example, Native Americans with peyote and psilocybin, Sufi mystics with hashish, Rastafarians with marijuana, etc. Crowley experimented with these techniques with only mixed results. He was honest enough to write about all his experiences for the benefit of students, but never recommended they try it themselves. Your "fornication and sodomy" statement made me smile: I thought for a moment that perhaps you may be a Calvinist or a Quaker.

All these "Thelemites" talk about Yoga and Buddhism, etc.; yet, I can hardly see it if at all.

So basically what you mean is that many Thelemites don't live up to the teachings of Thelema. I would say that you are correct, and that this probably describes all religious and spiritual systems.

Does anyone here happen to have a book intitled Sex And Rockets: The Occult World of Jack Parsons handy? This might settle some of your differences.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I was only musing from my own experiences with O.T.O., which was quite a few years ago. It could be that modern O.T.O. are non-hip-types, but the male O.T.O. members I come across in occult chat rooms that have pictures of themselves posted all seem to have long hair, beards, and tie-dyed Che Guevara t-shirts.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

Well other than the Che shirts they sound like goths to me. Really it's kind of funny this subject was brought up. The same thing is happening on a Thelemic e-list right now. One persons thinks there are tow many young Goth types and he doesn't feel like he is fitting in, then there was another person who was a young goth type saying there are too many old middle class types. It all depends on where you look it seems.

Anyway I can't help but think that the real pease and love hippies of the 60's would have to take another toke after reading chapter 3 of the Book of the Law.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I thought I recalled Regardie saying that Crowley would have embraced them. The manifestation of the Age of Aquarius, or something to that effect.

The thing many people forget is despite Crowley's Libertine attitude, he was an upper class English gentleman in the late 1800, early 1900's, you can see this in his altitudes towards women, and the "servant class". He would of surly mocked them for lack of discipline.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Well there is no Thelemic doctrine of "Do what thou wilt." That's part of the problem.

I would disagree. The term is so important in Thelema that Thelemites use it instead of "Hello, how are you doing today?". There is obviously a doctrinal basis, which Crowley elaborated upon many times in his writings.

No we don't :-) "Do what thou wilt." is just four words out of eleven that are part of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". Like I said taking quotes out of context is one of the things that causes most of the problems even something that seems like no big deal like this example.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
when Crowley discovered that Parsons and Wilfred Smith were literally trying to create a "moonchild" which Crowley had only described symbolically, he called them "morons".

That would be Parsons and Hubbard... I'm not sure of my timeline but I think Smith was already "out" of the O.T.O. when the Babalon working started, but in any case he had nothing to do with it.

I have seen 2 versions of that letter, one he calls them Louts, the other Goats.

Originally posted by Toelint
Does anyone here happen to have a book intitled Sex And Rockets: The Occult World of Jack Parsons handy? This might settle some of your differences.

Yep, that is one of the books I recommended in my first post. :-)

Love is the law, love under will.

Originally posted by Cug
One persons thinks there are tow many young Goth types and he doesn't feel like he is fitting in, then there was another person who was a young goth type saying there are too many old middle class types.

The "old middle class types" were the hippies I was referring to. The radio station I normally listen to is a classic rock station. They have some pretty catchy mottoes: "We used to scare your parents, now we scare your kids". Or, my favorite, "You used to look for killer weed; now you look for weed killer; but we're still here playing the same great tunes!"

Anyway I can't help but think that the real pease and love hippies of the 60's would have to take another toke after reading chapter 3 of the Book of the Law.

Actually, a large portion of the counterculture of the '60's came directly from Crowley. Although the younger generation of today often views hippies as stoned-out Tommy-Chong-types, the counterculture movement was first and foremost militant and intellectual. Many were fans of Nietzsche, who often made Crowley look like a choirboy. Crowley was not shocking to the movement; instead the movement often embraced him. Ginsberg, Leary, Lennon, Burroughs, Hoffman, and many others in the movement were quite fond of Crowley, and made it known.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Hogwash. There hasn't been any regular Mason that denied the existence of God. Why would an atheist want to become a Mason anyway? What would be the purpose? It would be like an atheist lying about believing in God just so he could join a Methodist Church, or a Jewish synagogue: what would be the point?

For the most obvious of reasons ML, for the neferious purpose of stealing masonic secrets, to expose what this person of "Mercenary intent" thought was a great plot of evil, or to benefit from the code of brotherly love and preference to ones brothers before all others. all of which i am sure has tempted atleast one person to atleast try to join the order.

now i think we can all agree thats a pretty scummy thing to do.. but we know there are alot of scummy people out there

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Actually, a large portion of the counterculture of the '60's came directly from Crowley. Although the younger generation of today often views hippies as stoned-out Tommy-Chong-types, the counterculture movement was first and foremost militant and intellectual. Many were fans of Nietzsche, who often made Crowley look like a choirboy. Crowley was not shocking to the movement; instead the movement often embraced him. Ginsberg, Leary, Lennon, Burroughs, Hoffman, and many others in the movement were quite fond of Crowley, and made it known.

I'd buy that, i am pretty intellectual, and i can be alittle militant at times.. and i am quite the fan of Crowley's work. not only was he sharp as a straight razor, but he had one hell of a sense of humor. that and the fact that he helped take all the fluff and bullspit out of spirituallism makes him aces in my book.. pocket aces infact.. that look like this A.*.A.*.