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A Challenge for Christian Believers

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posted on Oct, 9 2005 @ 04:34 PM
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Benevolent Heretic,

Nice try! You quoted the first half of what I said but conveniently left out the second half. I wonder why? They were not two separate paragraphs so that couldn’t be it? Hmm, this is a mystery.

For the record here is the partial quote used by Benevolent Heretic against me.




Machine
I read the original post and I do see that she said, THE antichrist, but I still say you’re mincing words here. My reading of what she asked for was whether or not the Bible talks about the antichrist and it does. Her capitalization of the word, “THE” only places emphasis on what it is she is interested in which follows as simply, “antichrist”.


And, like a miracle, the full quote itself exactly as I clearly posted it.




Machine
I read the original post and I do see that she said, THE antichrist, but I still say you’re mincing words here. My reading of what she asked for was whether or not the Bible talks about the antichrist and it does. Her capitalization of the word, “THE” only places emphasis on what it is she is interested in which follows as simply, “antichrist”. For Queenannie38 to dismiss this as not being in the Bible is a lie. If she tries to say that the words, “the antichrist” are not in the Bible she is also a liar because several other bible versions have it that way exactly. Either way your word games fall short of the truth no matter which way you take it.


Why try and omit key words from my post that you quoted Benevolent Heretic unless you know that they hurt your argument? I doubt you would have butchered half of my paragraph away if it would have seemingly benefited your argument.

In Jesus Christ,

James




posted on Oct, 9 2005 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by Machine
Why try and omit key words from my post that you quoted Benevolent Heretic unless you know that they hurt your argument? I doubt you would have butchered half of my paragraph away if it would have seemingly benefited your argument.


Well, no, James, actually you're mistaken again. I only quoted the part of your paragraph that was relevant to my response. There were no key words omitted, no butchering and actually no arguing, on my part anyway. There was no intent to deceive anyone. I'm not using anything 'against you',
it's just part of board etiquette to quote only the relevant part.

From ATS Rules, Guildlines and Etiquette:

Please edit the quoted portion to the salient material needed to make your point!

I am totally done with your argument that "THE antichrist" appears in the bible, when I and everyone else knows full well that it does not.

Bored now...



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 04:09 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

What version of the bible is this?

Edit: OK. It's the New International Version, written in 1978. Somehow I don't think the original poster was asking about the 'disco era' version of the bible. I could be wrong, though.

[edit on 9-10-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]



Originally posted by junglejake
I got that version from the New International Version, but it's also there in the New American Standard Bible, The Message, The Amplified Bible , The New Living Translation, King James Version, English Standard Edition, New King James Edition, 21st Century King James Version, American Standard Version, Young's Literal Translation, Darby Translation.


I don't get this "bickering" over the word "The" (Ie. "The Antichrist" or just "Antichrist")... (OK, I understand where the argument is coming from...But still!)
And in specific the "which version of the bible did that come from...?" Isn't that a bit beyond the point? And wouldn't the most accurate version to get a reference to the Antichrist be the original Hebrew or Greek version or even the Septuagint?
I'm aware that the KJV is considered the most accurate by most Bible Scholars, still left debatable...
And I think calling upon "The Bible Code" for this debate would be completely beyond the point!


Just as an example let's take a look at the differences in the reference to Lucifer...

To most people (except maybe a mason or member of Illuminati) "Lucifer" is believed to be the actual name of the cherub who became Satan. HOWEVER, the mistranslation " Lucifer " is only found in one passage of the Bible, Isaiah 14:12, and only in old translations (Vulgate, KJV). Compare the King James translation of Isaiah 14 to the Interlinear:

(KJV) "How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!"


(Interlinear) "O shining star, son of morning,
how you have fallen from the heavens...
For you said in your heart,
I will go up to the heavens;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
and I will sit in the mount of meeting
in the sides of the north...
I will be compared to the most high."


This often misinterpreted passage has lead some to conclude that Lucifer is a different entity than Satan. At the very least, the King James mistranslation compounds confusion because of the association of Venus / Lucifer / "Morning Star". The original Hebrew makes clear that the word " Lucifer " is not an accurate translation. "Light Bringer" clearly is not what was intended in this passage. Unfortunately, the Hendricksen Interlinear Hebrew Bible translates the phrase misleadingly as well, using "O shining star" instead of "Lucifer". The actual Hebrew word hay-lale does not mean "star" but "bright or clear sounding" (as in singing Hallelujah) although it also denotes "brightly colored or shining", and appropriately, "boastfulness and pride". If the intended meaning was "star", the Hebrew word for star , kochob "a round rolling object", would have been used.

The phrase, "son of morning" should read "son of the dawning", as in "the earliest" or "the first" -- God created the angels at the dawn of all of His creation. A more accurate English translation from the Hebrew should read, "O clear sounding, boasting son from the beginning", describing this rebel angel who was cast by God from the heavens. Satan is not the only "morning star" mentioned in the Old Testament. Other passages describe the angels as sons from the morning or dawning of creation

The English word Antichrist is taken from the Greek αντίχριστος / antíẖristos / aˈdiχristos or ãˈdiχristos, and literally means instead of Christ. AntiChrist Encyclopaedia

Many believe that the reference "Gog" actually means Antichrist.
And you, son of man, prophecy against Gog, and say, "Thus says the Lord God, 'Behold, I am against you, Gog (i.e., antichrist), chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. And I will fetch you back, and conduct you, and bring you up from the far reaches of the north. For I will make you come to the mountains of Israel. Then I will strike your bow from your left hand, and make your arrows fall from your right hand'". Ezekiel 39:1-3

The White horse in Revelations (6:1-2) is also seen as The Antichrist or rather symbolizes the trend of military aggression by antichrist and his forces. Read more here



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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In the KJV, there are a total of 4 instances where the original Greek is translated as 'antichrist':


  1. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. --1 John 2:18 KJV
  2. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. --1 John 2:22 KJV
  3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. --1 John 4:3 KJV
  4. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. --2 John 1:7 KJV



Here is a page for interlinear comparison (between the English and the Greek NT--at crosswalk.com.
You'll have to plug in 'antichrist' in the search form, and there are two choices, KJV or NAS, both with Strong's numbers.

There is no phrase 'the antichrist' in the KJV. In the Greek texts there is no definite article in front of the word translated 'antichrist' in those 4 verses.

The original Greek is
antichristos
an-tee'-khris-tos
an opponent of the Messiah: - antichrist


Any and all adversaries of Messiah and His purpose are antichrists. There is no biblical basis for there being one certain man who will be so bad he'll be antichrist. The world is full enough of this negative spiritual energy--we're certainly not lacking in all that is 'antichrist.'

The idea of there being 'The antichrist' arose out of the Catholic counter-move to the accusations during the Reformation, fueled by Martin Luther, that the RCC/Papacy was 'the antichrist.' Do some research on the Council of Trent, the Reformation, as well as these names: Alcazar, Ribera, and Bellarmine.

In a way, Martin Luther was correct--except that his accusation is limited--most of religion (esp. mainstream christianity) these days, surprisingly and ironically enough, is actually antichrist in nature.

Anything that goes against love and the golden rule is antichrist. Anything that goes against the truth of the scriptures is antichrist.

Regardless of what is popularly accepted, what is promoted in modern religion is often not in line with scripture--and the attitude of those who staunchly defend these errors demonstrates an attitude of less-than-brotherly-love.

All these confusions and misleading tangents are because this is a portion of the 'strong delusion' spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12.

The start of the antichrists career is what most believe we should all be watching and waiting for. Yet, a careful reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 makes it clear that there is not to be some new and momentous event signaling the reign of some larger-than-life antichrist--the antichrist spirit has been working in the world even in Paul's day and he makes no bones about it:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It is not the debut he talks about--but rather the fact that there will come a place in time when it becomes obvious, to those who truly do walk in the Spirit, just exactly what, where, and how, that which Paul talks about is manifest. It's not that it will begin--it is that it will be clearly seen after being concealed to all souls for centuries. And when the veil and illusion is taken away--then defeat approaches. Because once the workings of the adversary plainly show themselves, those whom God has prepared will destroy that power with the word and Spirit of Truth--and probably the whole time this is going on, many who think they are 'the elect' will be still watching the horizon with bated breath, looking for 'The Antchrist.'



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by Machine
Queenannie38,

I suspected it for some time but now I know you are indeed a heretic and a liar concerning the true Word of God.


James,

with all due respect, how many hours would you say that you have 'under your belt' of strict serious scriptural study? What I mean, specifically, is exploration and immersion in scripture?



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 02:51 PM
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Queenannie38,

I’m thirty six years old and have read the Holy Bible from front to back and inside and out countless times over the last thirteen years. I’ve also read well over one hundred books covering various biblical topics. My knowledge of God’s Word is solid. Most if not all of what you have been teaching concerning the Word of God is not true. I consider you to be a serious threat to the readers on this forum because you do have a strong grasp of the Word but twist it to suit your own ideology which is not Christian at all.

It’s not the first time I’ve had to go to war with someone on these forums who pretends to hold to Christian beliefs but instead spouts new age teachings under the guise of being Christian. You of course have every right to try and convince the members on this forum that I’m not a Christian or attack what I say in any manner you decide. Or you can simply ignore me which is what I will do to you as soon as my mission is accomplished.

I wish it could be another way but you give me no choice but to defend the faith which you are trying to destroy. On a more human note I do not wish you any harm and pray that God can work within you to bring about the spiritual change that you need to be right with Him.


A True Christian
In These Last Days,

James



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 03:36 PM
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I got some really bad news for you James. The Christ AND The Anti-Christ are already on this planet just waiting for the right moment buddy.



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 05:01 PM
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gimmefootball400,

Not a problem for me at all I’ve been expecting them both for many years now. New age teachings will set the stage for a global religion which will thrive for a season. Once new age teachings have worn out their use the antichrist will convert that religious system into one that directly worships him alone.

Then the true Lord and King Jesus Christ who is God almighty will come and destroy them all!

He shall return!

A True Christian
In These Last Days,

James



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by Machine
I’ve also read well over one hundred books covering various biblical topics.
That I already knew--it is obvious that your reliance is upon others' interpretations rather than your own. Reading the bible cover to cover is not the same as studying to show one's self approved--especially if it's not your only focus. It's nigh to impossible not to let extra-biblical commentaries tint the view from clear to cloudy--and there's no reason the Spirit can't teach you all you need to know. That is, if you don't mind being called a heretic now and then.

JK


Don't forget Psalms 118:8 is the very center of the Word--the literal central support and pillar of truth sustaining all bible study.


My knowledge of God’s Word is solid.
I'd certainly say it is firmly established, if that is what you mean. Bordering on stubborn held fast to and aggressively defended, often times.

But as Paul said, ...good to be zealously affected always in good...


Most if not all of what you have been teaching concerning the Word of God is not true.
Not true according to your level of understanding, quite possibly. But nothing I say contradicts scripture.


I consider you to be a serious threat to the readers on this forum because you do have a strong grasp of the Word but twist it to suit your own ideology which is not Christian at all.
Whoever said I claimed to have a 'christian ideology?' As far as twisting the scripture--what profit comes of that? The simple and beautiful truth of God is presented pretty straightforward--to truly desire to hear God it is not necessary to twist a thing--it is the twist that we are coming out of--that the Spirit will make straight if we walk in the way we have been shown. Out of the darkness into the light.

The Hebrew word for 'night' is 'layil'; defined as properly a twist (away of the light), that is, night; figuratively adversity:
It is spelled lamed-yod-lamed: kamed represents 'teaching/learning' and 'yod' symbolizes 'arm/right hand of God.'
An interesting word, as it paints the picture of the human soul's journey of development and restoration. Adversity is encountered, and is a high-ranking teacher of Life--as long as one continues to return to the right hand (instead of the left), the teaching/learning continues indefinitely. It is essentially a spiral--a cycle of growth, the opposite of which is stagnation and death.


It’s not the first time I’ve had to go to war with someone on these forums who pretends to hold to Christian beliefs but instead spouts new age teachings under the guise of being Christian.
There's a lot more going on in your imagination than what is truly taking place, James.
First off, any ideas of war come from your direction--you threw down the gauntlet and seem to believe that I will pick it up; but in reality you are charging at windmills.
Secondly: I repeat, once again, that I have not once, not ever, on this forum or elsewhere (internet or 'real life'), made a statement or otherwise suggested, insinuated, or hinted that I hold 'christian' beliefs. Neither do I feel there is any justification in accusing me of 'spouting new age teachings under the guise of being christian;' primarily because neither one of those terms hold any meaning for me in any way.

What I find increasingly ironic and strangely amusing is the prevalent belief among professed christians that 'new age' is something to be avoided and defamed. What is 'new age,' really? As far as I can tell, it is slapped without discretion upon any burgeoning spark of truth as well as upon a myriad of other cultish concoctions related to things such as ufo's and a hodge-podge of eastern philosophies.

If you think about the term 'new age' from a strictly scriptural standpoint, it is not at all something abhorrent, but actually is our goal. The next age will be a 'new age' to all of us. The age currently drawing to a close definitely qualifies as the 'old age.'

The New Testament is full of references to the juxtaposition and transition from old to new...

No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
--Matthew 9:16-17 KJV

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
--Matthew 13:52 KJV

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
--2 Peter 3:13 KJV

We are to be made new, prepared to inherit that which is coming to us in the coming, next, age--and age where righteousness will be the way instead of evil and darkness. It is in that next age, an altogether 'new age', where we will we receive eternal life:

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left his home, wife, brothers, parents, or children because of the kingdom of God who will not receive many times as much in this world, as well as eternal life in the age to come."
--Luke 18:29-30 ISV

Christ came for the express purpose of making us ready and leading us into the next age--the 'new age':

He gave himself for our sins in order to rescue us from this present evil age according to the will of our God and Father.
--Galatians 1:4 ISV

The book of Revelation is full of promise and hope from things made new:

Verses 2:17, 3:12, 5:9-10, 14:3, and lastly:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[color=#CC0000]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
--Revelation 21:1-7 KJV

It seems like the new age to come will far surpass our wildest hopes, a life truly beyond our present ability to comprehend. The renewal I've received in these recent years has been a literal miracle, something I never expected or even considered possible--and I know that it's just a wee drop in a bucket that will some day be filled to overflowing.

So I guess I must retract my words--your statement regarding my 'new age spoutings' is totally legitimate--although I still object to the part about 'under the guise of being christian.' That is an unfair and inaccurate statement based on what you think you see, rather than what it is in my heart. I follow Christ with all my soul and being--just as I have for the last 28 years (officially). But that doesn't automatically qualify me as someone who plays the part or wears disguises, nor does it by default make me a 'christian' in any degree whatsoever. Christ is the anointed Messiah, the Holy One of Israel--He was not Greek nor was the purpose of His visitation the founding of the christian religion.


You of course have every right to try and convince the members on this forum that I’m not a Christian or attack what I say in any manner you decide.
No doubt that is true. Having the right to do such a thing still doesn't make it an appropriate choice of action on my part. Who am I to say you are or are not a christian? If you say you are, then you must truly be. That's nothing to me and truly none of my business. If you're expecting an attack of some sort, I'm afraid you will be waiting indefinitely. That's not the way I function.


Or you can simply ignore me which is what I will do to you as soon as my mission is accomplished.
What you're going to do to me? As soon as what mission is accomplished? I think I deserve a bit more detail concerning your plans for me, or whatever it is you are referring to. I also wonder, regardless of the nature of your 'mission', why you are so confident of what you consider success enough to warrant being then able to consign me to the never-land outside the boundary of neighbor-loving duty?


I wish it could be another way but you give me no choice but to defend the faith which you are trying to destroy.
What 'faith' am I trying to destroy, James? How could I possibly do such a thing, anyway--if one has true faith in something, it is not something easily destroyed unless it is allowed. I don't seek to build or destroy faith. All I endeavor to do is to promote and uphold both truth and love for everyone. Just because I don't say what you want to hear or what you feel is right doesn't mean I have a destructive intent, nor is it a call for defense on your part. I am not taking the offensive position nor am I actively attacking anything that should be left to stand. Truth is the strongest force there is, and certainly doesn't require human efforts for fortification--as it is the only thing that can not and will not be moved.


On a more human note I do not wish you any harm and pray that God can work within you to bring about the spiritual change that you need to be right with Him.
Well, I'm glad to see that there is some bit of human compassion involved here--and I truly appreciate what you are saying. The spiritual change you feel I need has been largely accomplished already--although I certainly don't expect you to know that--since you don't have any inkling of the experiences which I've been given or of my way of life.
While I do always cherish any prayer made on my behalf, it would be more promising, perhaps, if you prayed instead that God continues to guide me as He has been, and that I continue to seek His way instead of the world's...

There's never too much entreaty made in that respect, on the behalf of any soul.



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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You have voted queenannie38 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month


Bravo



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 11:01 PM
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Queenannie38,

Your last post says it all so I have no need to continue letting others know that you are not a Christian. That was my main concern for the others on this forum and you have been honest concerning that. You also acknowledged your new age leanings so others can come to you when they want that type of teaching. My mission with you was a simple one and your honesty has left me with little to do. I only wanted to insure that the other posters on this forum understood that you were not a Christian and taught another gospel.

In your defense I don’t recall you ever claiming to be a Christian but you used Christian terminology in new age ways so my red flag popped up. I don’t wish to stop anyone from teaching anything they wish I only want their teachings to be recognized for what they are.

Now we can both continue to battle for the hearts and minds of this forum.


A True Christian
In These Last Days,

James



posted on Oct, 10 2005 @ 11:38 PM
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Very through response, Queen Annie! The points you made about bringing the new age about were quite interesting. I'm curious, what does that scripture mean to you in detail? I agree the age to come will flabbergast us; it'll be absolutely amazing! Does this have any current meaning for you, though, or do you see it as more prophetic?

I also had one other question for ya (though, based on your future responses, I'm sure not the last
). You said,


Originally posted by queenannie38
He was not Greek nor was the purpose of His visitation the founding of the christian religion.


What did you mean by this, specifically the element of the Christian religion? I guess what I'm looking for is your definition of what the Christian religion is, in this sense (dunno if we're in agreement yet), and what in scripture backs this claim. This is coming from one Christian to another, so scripture is a valid argument



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 01:53 AM
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Originally posted by Machine
Your last post says it all so I have no need to continue letting others know that you are not a Christian. That was my main concern for the others on this forum and you have been honest concerning that. You also acknowledged your new age leanings so others can come to you when they want that type of teaching. My mission with you was a simple one and your honesty has left me with little to do. I only wanted to insure that the other posters on this forum understood that you were not a Christian and taught another gospel.

James


Sorry for sticking my nose in this... And I hate to choose sides... But I would just like to congratulate you, James, on spotting Queenannie38 for who she really is. At no point did she deny your accusations, she admitted to not being a Christian (denying Christ...?) and supported "The New Age". I.e. you were right about Queenannie, and well done...
I was neutral towards the argument between you right up to her (?) last post - because I could not spot her "teachings between the lines"...
Though I don't think she did any harm.

And to Queenannie - I might not agree with what you're saying or doing (whatever that may be), but hats of to you for standing by your believes and not losing your cool.



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 09:40 AM
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Hi,

Thanks alot to people who have replied to my post.

Queenannie, thanks for your input. I look forward to any more you may have. Even if I dont agree with it its still valid.

Machine, thanks for your input. You really are a true Christian. I dont particularly think that trashing down someone's beliefs that are different to yours is good. Fair enough you have the right to disagree, but do you realise that you have done all you have condemned the other poster for even in this very topic?

I find that most, if not all versions of the bible are erroneous and translated with a particular bias. I dont understand Greek and Hebrew so I have to take people's word for what words and phrases translate to. And, I dont believe that even the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts are the same writings as originally written. Altering, omitting and adding things to texts is not a new practice. Its gone on since humans first learned how to write.

So, so far I have had few replies relating to the Christ. Most of the replies have been related to the Antichrist (I wonder why?).

The person who believes Christ / Antichrist are already here... how do you know? Where are they? Are they both working together in all of this?

I guess what I am looking for is a Prophet. But even if there was a Prophet I would be reluctant to believe him/her, due to the fact that people are full of crap. Also, why cant God just quit with the stupid games and tell us all outright, himself? That way, there would be no excuses. The bible just does not cut it for me, for reasons stated above. It maybe one witness, but its a hell of a poor and unreliable one. There should be another witness... where is it?



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 09:44 AM
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Machine, I have just re-read your posts, and you boast of having read much literature and have a solid understanding of the bible... if this is so, can I point you towards a scripture (yes, its one I believe is inspired and intact) this is John 5:39-40.



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by Willow_Dryad
So, so far I have had few replies relating to the Christ. Most of the replies have been related to the Antichrist (I wonder why?).

The person who believes Christ / Antichrist are already here... how do you know? Where are they? Are they both working together in all of this?


What queenannie I think is trying to say is that the coming of the antichrist, and the second coming of Christ, will not be as people. The antichrist represents the idenfitication with the ego, with the flesh, while the coming of Christ represents the dissolving of this ego. It is something that happens within.



I guess what I am looking for is a Prophet. But even if there was a Prophet I would be reluctant to believe him/her, due to the fact that people are full of crap. Also, why cant God just quit with the stupid games and tell us all outright, himself? That way, there would be no excuses. The bible just does not cut it for me, for reasons stated above. It maybe one witness, but its a hell of a poor and unreliable one. There should be another witness... where is it?


God is not a person, we cannot personify God into a carnal being. God has nothing to tell, for it is all very clear, we must only look.



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by Willow_Dryad
So, so far I have had few replies relating to the Christ. Most of the replies have been related to the Antichrist (I wonder why?).


I can only speak for myself, but the reason I didn't answer anything about the Christ or his presence here is because I think that's all a matter of interpretation and opinion.

Every generation people speak of the end and I was taught not even to speculate about the 2nd coming because the bible taught that no man will know the time.

The question about THE antichrist appearing in the bible is (depending on the version you use) fairly straightforward. It's either in there or it's not.


So, for my part, there was no intent to jump on the Antichrist question or avoid the Christ question, I just don't know the answer.



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by Willow_Dryad
So, so far I have had few replies relating to the Christ. Most of the replies have been related to the Antichrist (I wonder why?).


Mine is coming, I'm just composing scripture and previous posts to support my position so I don't come off as someone declaring something as fact without needing any backing of my claims. My reply has been sitting in another ATS tab (via FireFox) and I've slowly been adding to it between work and the occasional post here on ATS. The antichrist was far easier to find -- just went to Bible Gateway, did a keyword search, and read through the scripture that came up. The Christ aspect is a bit more involved, but it is in there



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 12:32 PM
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Willow_Dryad

The scriptures you pointed out start and end within a long speech that Jesus Christ gave to a group of Jews while he was alive. He was giving them the evidence within scripture that pointed to Him being the Messiah and Son of God.

Is there a particular reason why this scripture interests you?

A True Christian
In These Last Days,

James



posted on Oct, 12 2005 @ 04:31 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Very through response, Queen Annie! The points you made about bringing the new age about were quite interesting. I'm curious, what does that scripture mean to you in detail?

As far as the idea of the age to come, the verse that's always held the most significance to my own heart, personally, are the last two in Matthew's Gospel:

Therefore, as you go,
disciple all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father,
and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.
And remember,
I am with you each and every day until the end of the age."

--Matthew 28:19-20 ISV

This has always been my favorite verse--ever since I was a child. My children's bible said 'and lo I am with you even unto the end of the age.'

It was that phrase, specifically that was meaningful to me in those days--only in recent years has the full import of the entire passage began to take shape in my understanding.

The comfort and strength I have gotten from those words--even as a little kid--I can not describe with justice the impact those words made in my life because of that promise given for the duration of this age. Linus had a blanket but I had the trust of this promise.

He promises to be with us until the end of this Age, and then when the next one begins, as John says in his first epistle:

but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.



I agree the age to come will flabbergast us; it'll be absolutely amazing! Does this have any current meaning for you, though, or do you see it as more prophetic?
It has profound meaning for me these days--because the experiences I've been given in the last 2 or 3 years have been unlike anything I could have imagined--the little taste of astonishment and awe I've had has been rocket fuel upon my desire to serve both God and all the souls He's made for the purpose of giving each one the same blessing. And the blessings of true joy and peace that He's given me seeded a love for others that I would have never been able to give on my own...and that just adds to my pile of riches.

And these things have brought about the realizations I have been convicted of; for there is no better persuasion than actual experience to the human soul. One of my favorite t-shirts is of Bob Marley--it says 'Who feels it knows it.' And how true is that?

I've always tried to love others--I've truly never, not once, committed an act of vengeance toward anyone and I've tried to walk in the shoes of anyone I meet. Nothing extraordinary about that--I know many people have lived the same way. And yet--it is not much yet the best any of us can probably do. We are humans who are driven by emotion and to love others is a good intention, but I've hurt others by loving them--it's expected and proves that even the most generous human heart is inherently flawed by servitude to emotions.
In the big picture, though--it doesn't matter. God doesn't ask anything of any of us except to love fully and be loyal to all that is true. Seek truth and love with your whole heart--with example and encouragement our efforts become seeds--and God gives the increase. Perfection is beyond our reach--and unless God directly reveals Himself to us, knowing Him is also beyond our reach. I truly don't think His desire is for us to seek Him directly before other things--the shortest path to God's feet is by washing the feet of our brothers.

We are here to love one another--seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness means serve those in the kingdom in the same way He would--that is His righteousness. 'And all these things will be added unto you.' Then--after serving and fulfilling His commandments (love, love, love!)--then He is our exceedingly rich reward.

And all we really have to have is the sincere desire to do His will--He will take over and give us help to get it done. His will is simple. Love, love, love.

And when He'd filled me up with love to spread around, it became increasingly clear to me that His love is so perfect and just and is not bestowed as a favor or preference upon only some of us--He expects us to love everyone because He loves every single soul beyond measure.

Punishments given out by a loving father are for the purpose of correction, not destruction. If His purpose was to destroy even one of us completely, He wouldn't have made even that one. We are here because He created us to be here. He is efficient and does not do anything in vain. There is no emptiness in God--only fullness and light.

We have a simple job to do--given in the 'great commission':

  • demonstrate and declare His love for all of us through the witness of our actions toward others
  • make the way straight for the Holy Spirit to work the miracle of fire upon our soul, by baptizing (wiping the slate of our consciousness clean for the proper start)
  • and hold fast and stand watch over the charge we've been given (love, love, love)



What did you mean by this, specifically the element of the Christian religion? I guess what I'm looking for is your definition of what the Christian religion is, in this sense (dunno if we're in agreement yet), and what in scripture backs this claim. This is coming from one Christian to another, so scripture is a valid argument
Well, the name of Messiah is rightfully Yehoshua and He is the Holy One of Israel--God's work begins in the center point, which is Christ--radiating out through His chosen and prepared servants (the elect)--this is Israel, whose purpose is to glorify God as a light to the rest of the world--until all are gathered under His shelter. The shelter of the OT camp of the children of Israel was open to any sojourner seeking the protection of God--the nations of the world will be joined to Israel--and that's always been the plan:


Numbers 15:15-16, Leviticus 19:33-34


Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 24:22 KJV


Isaiah 11, 35, 40-46, 49, 55, 58-59, 62-63, and 66 reveal more about these purposes of God which have never changed direction in the slightest. Chapter 49 is probably the most straightforward:

3) And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7) Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8) Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9) That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

18) Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.

22) Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.


Remember Matthew 15:24:

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It is a radiating circle which will include all the world when it's all said and done.



[edit on 10/12/2005 by queenannie38]




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