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POLITICS: Turkey stands on wanting EU membership.

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posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 08:20 AM
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In recent news the Prime Minister of Turkey has confirmed that he will accept nothing less than membership in the European Union. He has also noted that Turkey will continue democratic reforms with or without the European Union." According to the article, Turkey has also refused changes to an EU framework document.
 



www.voanews.com
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan reaffirmed Monday Turkey would not accept anything less than full membership of the European Union and that he was not "bluffing." Mr. Erdogan's comments came as European Union Foreign ministers in Luxembourg kept up efforts to agree on a framework for Turkey to begin membership talks later in the day.

Speaking at a congress of his ruling Justice and Development Party, Mr. Erdogan stressed the European Union needed Turkey at least as much as Turkey needed the European Union. If the EU wanted to become a global player and to avert a clash of civilizations it would need to open its doors to Turkey, he said.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


This is definatly an interesting development. And I wonder if Turkey really will get into the EU. It's hard to say seing as they're mostly in Asia, and as I've heard members say before, it could cause a flood of low wage workers. Considering supposed rates of unemployment in Europe at the moment, there is definatly economic reason to keep Turkey out of the EU's membership.

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POLITICS: EU Faces Standoff Over Turkey




posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 08:34 AM
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I voted "YES"


The outcome of this will effect the membership of other "pending" countries that are tryng to get in the EU. Like Turkey, Georgia is not Geographically part of Europe and they're also trying to get in the EU.

BTW: Politically, I think Turkey is more in Europe than in Asia, but that's all a matter of opinion and what your baseing it on



[edit on 4/10/2005 by SportyMB]



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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A small part of Turkey is in Europe but most of it is in Asia. (that part of the Middle East is Asia)



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 08:55 AM
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In my opinion Turkey would not hesitate to recognize Cyprus if they truely wanted to become an EU member state.
However, this is not the case.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:00 AM
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With Turkey's textile firms exporting all over the world, including a lot to China, they may not even want to be part of Europe, especially as Europe does not seem to want them to the be part.


xu

posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:44 AM
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this story is a repat and also outdated, the issue already resolved yesterday.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:51 AM
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The issue with Turkey and the EU is not resolved .........actually things are just beginning!

helen



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 10:06 AM
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``

Turkey, i'm sure, does not have delusions that 'It' will be accepted into
the European Union...Turkey is and always will be 'too foreign'...

Turkey may join & benefit from treaties with the Economic Union of Europe,
but even the most enlightened and progressive, inclusive politics and society of Europe will still consider Turkey & the mostly eastern culture as 'a little below' them...pardon my lack of P.C-ness,

i might suggest that the nation might just be admitted into a "Probationary Membership" and then 'maybe' in 10-12 years, (if Turkey behaves) Turkey
could become a full member in the EU (if they get westernized enough)
All i see is another geo-political 'dance'


xu

posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 10:10 AM
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The issue with Turkey and the EU is not resolved .........actually things are just beginning!


oh really? well to improve your point of view on the issue let me add this it didnt even begin yet, what I was referring as "resolved" is obviously the issue which is referred to in this specific story.

what happened is that the way is opened for something which will take place 10-15 years later. which corresponds to 2015-2020 if things go well. until then its all internal to Turkey so dont worryabout it.

even the BBC has overwritten this story with its resolved version. check it out.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 10:40 AM
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I don't think Turkey will ever be in short or in medium term a full membership of EU.

What happened was just a wishfull thinking agreement, because the amount of problems in Turkey to be solved are very complex.

The problems:
1. The most populated country in EU with the exception of Germany, in which 99% are muslims.
2. Very poor (large amount of subsidies)
3. Human rights
4. Border with islamic countries
5. Cyprus (which once were Greek, it was invaded by Turks in 1974)
6. Kurds

Advantage:
- NATO member
- Possible Islamic interface between EU and islamic world

Crustas


xu

posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 04:24 PM
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society of Europe will still consider Turkey & the mostly eastern culture as 'a little below' them...


Im sorry for the people, who buys into that mindset are racists, well I cant really help them there that is something they should take care of by themselves.

let me tell you this, Im far more better and valuable than any of the remaining people on the face of the world, BUT I also know from an objective perception this is an illusion which every and each one of the individuals living in this world fall for, unless they are raised as slaves or fed with some other nonsense. So I know that any person living in this world is as valuable as me and we are equal by default. and if some individuals in Europe think that they are higher or lower than any other people, first this is against what EU stands for, second those people really cant reach to an unbiased perception, by breaking their subjectivity and this doesnt make them better or higher, just ignorant equals.

I despise nationalism so much here yet most europeans are far more nationalist than we are trying to get rid of.

I think you should know some facts about the issue before you form an opinion, here is a brief info about the history of TR;

you know they say TR is a continuation of ottoman empire which stood for 600 years being the wealthiest and most advanced empire of its peak time. well actually it is not really a continuation. see in the late times of this empire it was badly managed and lost most of its wealth and power to the point where the latest padishah dumped all the remaining treasure in a ship and escaped the country in the time of war.

imagine a country which its government is deserting it in a time of a war. Basically TR had started totally from scratch where it had no resources, no treasure and most importantly born into the midlle of a war with nothing at hand. and this is 80 years ago. Lenin of Russia offered shiploads of gold and resources to M. Kemal leader of the newly formed republic for to recover.

the european inspectors visited TR to gather information about how strong the country was and how much could it hold in case of an invasion, before they actually invade the country. knowing this beforehand, the warehouses were filled with grain to the ceiling but only the entrance so the grain would be enough for all the warehouses and when those warehouses looked full, the people who brought all of their harvest for it were starving of hunger, so the inspectors would see a healthy supply and maybe would think twice about invading the country. this is a detail you wont see in history books.

anyway the coalition forces started to invade, including Australia, Greece, England etc. meantime in TR the women of all age were working in factories to make shells and bullets plus shipping them to the frontline with oxcarts, where men would battle and where the bullets ran out (they were really short of bullets and food) they would charge against the enemy with bayonets, now that is some country defense which you wont see very often. suprisingly TR even in that condition triumphed and drove the invader froce out of its borders.

Do I feel sorry for those soldiers who came to invade this country and died? to tell you the truth I do. as much as I feel sorry for the ones who defended it, it wasnt their desicion they were dragged here, 18-20 year old boys, with the desicion of some fat guys who sit in their mansions and calculate the profits and land they could gain with the battle. well it didnt work out for them fortunately. yet TR was left really in a disastrous condition after the war, economically it didnt exist.

yet it reached where it is today in 70 years in spite of the last 4 decades bad managment and corrupt governments. believe me TR has made lots of people both inside and outside the country multi-billionaries. there are cases like where 5 billion dollars disappear with no records of it. if TR could exlude all these negative effects on time it would be much better now, TR has the potential of holding a much more advanced economy and if the right reforms are taken (which unexpectedly the current government started to improve things rather than filling their pockets.) with EU or without EU it will be quite powerfull economically thus solving the other problems like education etc.


1. The most populated country in EU with the exception of Germany, in which 99% are muslims.

yes that will be a problem because you see, when the TR is a full member because of its population it will have proportional seats in EU which will be a power in desicion making process. yet I dont see what does this got to do with islam, Tr is one of the most secular conuntry you will ever find considering its geography and the popular religion practiced by its people. I dont think USA is more secular than TR for instance, in the time of election the candidates are posing with priests in churches, "in god we trust" is written on the money, and the pres often includes the word "god" in his sentences, for instance "god bless america", it is not much different than saying "god is willing, we will bla bla" which islamic extremists use often. and in TR if any authority uses the words like "God bless TR" it will have consequences. because here we know that god is non-existent in terms of governing a nation, and God is a personal belonging. and I must ask does EU have a preferred religion for the joining nations? if yes, tell me which religion driven Union are you, and also acknowledge that EU is not a secular union. which is not what it is, and that is why TR will make it to the EU. Plus other nations which has islam as most popular religion amongst its people joined EU before.


2. Very poor (large amount of subsidies)

Poor? what does it mean, look back to your own history, the depresssion in america, or the conditions right after the battle in Europe. what does this prove, does it mean that an economcially poor nation can never achieve to advance its economy under succesfull management? I mean look into you pasts, dont let the bright lights of McDonalds blind you, you werent always eating whoopers for lunch you know. plus you cant compare Tr with Argentina economically, its much much better than that but it has much more to achieve yet.


3. Human rights

it really improved. and will improve more. I dont see anyone executing imigrants in metro stations also. so its cool here. the keyword for human rights is education. and education is something proportional with economy. so everything is on the right track.


4. Border with islamic countries

you are afraid that if EU had borders with islamic countries, you would get into trouble right? well think again, it will improve relations rather than create any trouble, and it will help the world to overcome its islamophobia. I cant talk for US though. besides TR was there when NATO needed I dont see any aspect here that the Europen Nations would complain about.


5. Cyprus (which once were Greek, it was invaded by Turks in 1974)

OK you know that Cyprus was invaded but do you know why? I bet you dont. The cyprus was inside Ottomans borders before it gave it up, so there were still Turks living in there with greeks after retreat. Im not ceratin about the intentions but the greeks started to systematically murder Turks in the region to ethnically cleanse the island, that is when the TR decided to use military force to secure the area. if you consider the geographical position of TR Im sure you will agree that it is strategically very problematic to ensure the security. So I will also add that this events also benefited the TR since it gained back a strategically important corner. if it was only about claiming back strategic points than TR would start with islands in Aegean Sea, because there are islands in shouting distance to land and yet they belong to Greece.(which I am fine with personally) Im guessing that any of the European countries would do the same if it happened to them. in the other hand I dont personally mind giving cyprus back, but it is not simply possible its not in my or TRs ability to give back a landpiece, the North of cyprus now have their own culture and they are not really a part of the TR anyway, they are a nation by themselves.


6. Kurds

what about them? there are not only Kurds but all kind of nationalities mixed together here. Why is there a special interest in Kurds. and all the countrymen of TR is called Turks as all the American citizens are called Americans regardless of ethnicity.


Also there is some kind of misconception here, The TR is not "being accepted" to EU, it is "joining" to EU ( considering all the reforms are being done and will continue to be done). Believe me it will profit EU more then TR, I am conscious about that the TR will be the source of cheap labour and, lots of factories will be opened here. and this will be exploited for some time but it will contribute to economy and so education and life standards so it is acceptable to some degree. most people think that when TR joins EU they will have to help build the country from scratch, no it will be the people here who will build the countries econmy by working cheap yet getting better and better life standards day by day. and this will improve social consciousness to the point where people will be able to demand and get what they need.

and all these will happen sooner or later with or without EU, yet I dont think EU will be in that good shape if it tries to continue without TR. besides I dont really care if its with EU or not what I care is getting european life standards and rights for the people who demand it, and if EU will aid this process, TR should use the advantage. I also dont have a problem with traveling to Europe and back even now, so EU or not it doesnt matter,infact note to self: immigrate to Europe as soon as possible (evil laughter)

also there are some talks that TR is an Asian country, this is ridiculous. not geographically but culturally, Social structure of TR is much like that of Sicily of Italy, if you dont count the distortions caused by econmy. it even has racial connections.to tell you the truth TR has racial connections with 80% of Europe to be honest since Europe was in the borders of the former TR and it had an undeniable effect on the culture of europe.

besides dont be afraid of change, without it there is no life. but I can empathise why europen people are so afraid of TR joining EU, yet it is out of place. did you know that in europe at the time the ottomans still existed, the mothers would scare their children by saying" be well-behaved or I will give you to Turks", this is 400 years ago, yet the traces of its effects persists. you dont see me saying "be well-behaved or I will give you to jermans and they will burn you alive and make coats from your hair." this borders superstitious belief in todays world.

if deny ignorance is your motto, you should know first.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by xu

anyway the coalition forces started to invade, including Australia, Greece, England etc.



if you hadnt sided with germany your empire might not have been invaded, turkey only revolted because they werent happy with losing and being occupied.



Poor? what does it mean, look back to your own history, the depresssion in america, or the conditions right after the battle in Europe. what does this prove, does it mean that an economcially poor nation can never achieve to advance its economy under succesfull management? I mean look into you pasts, dont let the bright lights of McDonalds blind you, you werent always eating whoopers for lunch you know. plus you cant compare Tr with Argentina economically, its much much better than that but it has much more to achieve yet.


the depression was decades ago and europe was rebuilt by american money and we didnt require repayment, it proves that your country still needs more time before it should join the EU economically.



it really improved. and will improve more. I dont see anyone executing imigrants in metro stations also. so its cool here. the keyword for human rights is education. and education is something proportional with economy. so everything is on the right track.



human rights are not "learned" its something innate in everyone, freedom is the key word, government arent "the people" so how does its violations against them relate to education? most government officials are highly educted so again how does education relate?



you are afraid that if EU had borders with islamic countries, you would get into trouble right? well think again, it will improve relations rather than create any trouble, and it will help the world to overcome its islamophobia. I cant talk for US though. besides TR was there when NATO needed I dont see any aspect here that the Europen Nations would complain about.


no, but extremists would gain better access to europe and better support, maybe islam wouldnt scare people if islamic extremism wasnt ever-present across the world and had muslims justifying it, saying you feel bad then saying if muslims were treated better it wouldnt happen makes others feel like youre making excuses or threatening them.



OK you know that Cyprus was invaded but do you know why? I bet you dont. The cyprus was inside Ottomans borders before it gave it up,


so if you invade what is no longer yours its ok because a past empire?
so its ok if you invade greece too? syria? israel? egypt? etc?

ok then...



what about them? there are not only Kurds but all kind of nationalities mixed together here. Why is there a special interest in Kurds. and all the countrymen of TR is called Turks as all the American citizens are called Americans regardless of ethnicity.


you deny your countries treatment of kurds? and their resulting desire for independence?


xu

posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:24 PM
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namehere you are distorting most of what I had to say, I could quotework on your post but it is really not worth my time, writing the things which I wrote clearly in the above post again for you to understand that is. read it again you have the responses to your statements already in there.

for instance you quote me on saying;


OK you know that Cyprus was invaded but do you know why? I bet you dont. The cyprus was inside Ottomans borders before it gave it up,


while you get rid of the rest of the sentence, where it is obvious that I say it was in the borders of ottomans to make my point about why there were turks left living there to begin with. which the greeks for some reason systematically started to murder thus ethnically cleaning the place, after this TR carried out a military operation. will you tell me that your country would not do the same? what does this mean to you , is this sounds to you like "we already owned there so why not" kind of statement. It is obvious that your aim is to well, not to respond but just respond in a negative way. look what you made me do, I spent my precious time to say what I said before. again.


independence??? dont start me on this, would you prefer that the place is equally distributed between each person so each person can install their own government and thus be free? did you read anything in the shape of "TR was always an angel since it is born" kind of comment in what I wrote. did you catch the part where I wrote about corrupt governments and bad managment for the last 4 decades.?

for your other requirements and for the sake of my sanity please refer to the post above, they are facts not beliefs, and I can not respond for each belief anyone has here.

[edit on 4-10-2005 by xu]



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 12:01 AM
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The U.S. ambassador James Gerald had written .....The principles of Justice are more important than oil or the railroads........ and that .....the Turks should not be accepted into the society of decent nations until they show sincere repentance for their crimes. Fraternizing with them on any other terms creates the suspicion of sordidness and complicity....


imia.cc.duth.gr...

helen

[edit on 10/5/2005 by helen670]


xu

posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 01:37 AM
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Originally posted by helen670


The U.S. ambassador James Gerald had written .....The principles of Justice are more important than oil or the railroads........ and that .....the Turks should not be accepted into the society of decent nations until they show sincere repentance for their crimes. Fraternizing with them on any other terms creates the suspicion of sordidness and complicity....


imia.cc.duth.gr...

helen

[edit on 10/5/2005 by helen670]


a source from greece, right...


we know how unbiased that is, by the way I have nothing against greek I like greeks yet for some resons including their ethnical cleaning plan of the 70s which is planned by the then gov of cyprus, and the military action taken against it from TR which was decided by then gov of TR tensed things up in between. other than that, two sides of the aegian sea is the same people with different languages. you will lose that through to the black sea parts though.



posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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for xu


1. The most populated country in EU with the exception of Germany, in which 99% are muslims.



yes that will be a problem because you see, when the TR is a full member because of its population it will have proportional seats in EU which will be a power in desicion making process.


If you think that having a lot of seats means power, you're wrong Germany rules, not because of the seats they have but because the money they give to EU. I don't see a wealthy Turkey in near future.



2. Very poor (large amount of subsidies)


Poor? what does it mean, look back to your own history, the depresssion in america, or the conditions right after the battle in Europe. what does this prove, does it mean that an economcially poor nation can never achieve to advance its economy under succesfull management? I mean look into you pasts, dont let the bright lights of McDonalds blind you, you werent always eating whoopers for lunch you know. plus you cant compare Tr with Argentina economically, its much much better than that but it has much more to achieve yet.


"Your own history", man, you are assuming to much on me...
America? Who's talking about America? (North or South?)
You didn't understant the meaning of "large amount of subsidies", well it means that a vast amount of EU Euros will go mainly to subsidiate Turkey's agriculture. Now imagine this, to achieve balanced growth, Turkey needs to improve the training of farmers, make better seed available, upgrade livestock herds, standardize products, expand food-processing facilities (including cold storage and refrigerated transport), and reorganize marketing networks. This could takes decades!!! Can EU give so much money for so much time?




3. Human rights


it really improved. and will improve more. I dont see anyone executing imigrants in metro stations also. so its cool here. the keyword for human rights is education. and education is something proportional with economy. so everything is on the right track.


I don't know what your sources are but let me tell you this, threat by turkish officials are normal against organizations defending human rights. Just google it for a while and you will see what i mean.



4. Border with islamic countries


you are afraid that if EU had borders with islamic countries, you would get into trouble right? well think again, it will improve relations rather than create any trouble, and it will help the world to overcome its islamophobia. I cant talk for US though. besides TR was there when NATO needed I dont see any aspect here that the Europen Nations would complain about.


I don't think that Turkey could control their borders, because corruption and poverty is everywhere. Therefore the danger would have a direct entrace to EU.


5. Cyprus (which once were Greek, it was invaded by Turks in 1974)


OK you know that Cyprus was invaded but do you know why? I bet you dont. The cyprus was inside Ottomans borders before it gave it up.


By that point of view today's world, a few centuries ago belonged to Portugal and Spain. Should they reclaim it back?




6. Kurds




what about them? there are not only Kurds but all kind of nationalities mixed together here. Why is there a special interest in Kurds. and all the countrymen of TR is called Turks as all the American citizens are called Americans regardless of ethnicity.


The Kurds represent 20% of Turkey population and they still get repressed and torture after all this years?


Turkey has really a long way to go. Maybe one day, they will get there.


Peace
Crustas

[edit on 5-10-2005 by crustas]

[edit on 5-10-2005 by crustas]


xu

posted on Oct, 5 2005 @ 11:12 PM
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crustas 1. The most populated country in EU with the exception of Germany, in which 99% are muslims.



crustas If you think that having a lot of seats means power, you're wrong Germany rules, not because of the seats they have but because the money they give to EU. I don't see a wealthy Turkey in near future.


so you answered your own question. which I agree, see one EU nations disagrement on the EU membership of TR would almost stop the progression for both sides. so numbers doesnt mean anything. it is true that large population of TR will not be a problem for the desicion making. so no worries there. I agree with your own answer to your own qts.

yet the reson you dont see a wealthy TR in near future is irrelevant, that is only an opinion however if you listen to the expert opinions of economic projections of the TR, which you can find in BBC for instance, you will learn these:


BBC International Monetary Fund predicting an annual rate of 5% for 2005 and 2006.



BBC"Initially, Turkey will be a net recipient (of EU aid)," he told the BBC. "But I think probably from 2018, 2020 onwards, Turkey will actually be a net contributor to the EU budget, on the basis of the fact that Turkey is currently growing three to four times the EU trend growth."


also note that TR is able to support a an econmy better than Germany regarding both human resources and geographical resources. but it needs to be utilised properly (reforms)




crustas 2. Very poor (large amount of subsidies)



crustas "Your own history", man, you are assuming to much on me...
America? Who's talking about America? (North or South?)
You didn't understant the meaning of "large amount of subsidies", well it means that a vast amount of EU Euros will go mainly to subsidiate Turkey's agriculture. Now imagine this, to achieve balanced growth, Turkey needs to improve the training of farmers, make better seed available, upgrade livestock herds, standardize products, expand food-processing facilities (including cold storage and refrigerated transport), and reorganize marketing networks. This could takes decades!!! Can EU give so much money for so much time?


America from depression-to todays, and Europe from post-war to todays growth, are examples which debunks the statements like, an economically messed-up country will never be able to get a healthy economical shape with right reforms and management, this includes the planning and effective usage of resources

refer to the quote above from BBC, you will clearly see how many decades it will take for to TR to be a contributor to EU nation, it is projected that in 2020 by the time TR makes it to the EU it will be contributing 5 billion euros yearly to EU rather than taking it, dont you think that there is a reason why 24 nations of the EU has agreed at an administrative level for TR to join EU (besides the drooling corporations). so you should set your facts right first.




crustas 3. Human rights



crustas I don't know what your sources are but let me tell you this, threat by turkish officials are normal against organizations defending human rights. Just google it for a while and you will see what i mean.


You are asking me sources haha
now that is funny, I had my share of the human rights violations in this country, including torture yet you are asking me for sources for me saying the human rights are improved. If I say it did improve, it means it did, since I am living here rather than typing from 7.000 km away. the problem is the security employees like police officers who quit from elementary school, have no understanding of modern society or what human rights is, equipped with a baton and an attitude, and who is fed the idea that any protester is a villain inside his mind. now that can only be solved by education. these freaks are being sued by their own government. and I said it will improve more, so what is your problem here, are you opposed to this improvement or against any further improvement because the current gov is on the right track.




crustas 5. Cyprus (which once were Greek, it was invaded by Turks in 1974)



crustas By that point of view today's world, a few centuries ago belonged to Portugal and Spain. Should they reclaim it back?


you are quoting half the sentence even by turning the comma at the end to a period. you could make a great journalist.refer to the reply I made to namehere above. why are you people insisting on to catch something negative if it even means cutting and pasting my post together, and emphasise that bit without the whole story.

let me quote my above post in case it did not compute:

while you get rid of the rest of the sentence, where it is obvious that I say it was in the borders of ottomans to make my point about why there were turks left living there to begin with.





crustas 4. Border with islamic countries



crustas I don't think that Turkey could control their borders, because corruption and poverty is everywhere. Therefore the danger would have a direct entrace to EU.


you cant sum up with facts only by thinking, you need base data for it, but that is your opinion. you disregard that TR has %40 of its total GDP to military spendings (unfortunately) and has like a million active troops. what do you think is the reason for it.




crustas 6. Kurds



crustas The Kurds represent 20% of Turkey population and they still get repressed and torture after all this years?


let me correct that for you the turks who has kurdish ethnicity forms around %30 of population of TR, from east to west scattered around the country. and the Kurds you are referring to are the militaristic group or now agreed upon being terrorist group internationally are the kurds that are trained in Syria and Iraq to make attacks on TR military. the population who has the kurdish ethnicity who support the acts of this armed group is %0.1 However I acknowledge that a stereotyping occured during the intense times of the terrorsit attacks, and dont forget that 30.000 turks died from those attacks to day. and the attitude of security forces towards kurds in those areas was very wrong in some cases, I agree. but all these things settle down to one point, bad management, (refer to the corrupt governments of past) and the military had a big influence in the management which is fortunately neutralized. and the reforms those are about to come will improve the situation.



crustas Turkey has really a long way to go. Maybe one day, they will get there.


I agree it has a way to go but it is not that long as it is believed. I personally am interested on those reforms alone which will ensure the protection of human rights, and rasing life-standards plus will result in efficiency of production. EU or not those reforms are the main point.



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