RAPTURE a doctrine of man?

t has occured to me that the popular view of the end times is deeply flawed.
The popular views is that christians will be raptured, leaving cars, airplanes and other moving objects pilotless. the antichrist will make his appearance, sign a treaty with israel, enabling them to build the temple. the Antichrist will after 3.5 years errect a statue of himself in the holy of holies and go around the world persecting those who do not have his mark.
The reason that these speculations are so flawed is becuase of all of the date setting and speculation in the past that has been in error. False prophets Like Hal lindsey and Tim Lahaye have led millions into believing that
they willl be wisked off the planet for just a belief.
This is fundamentally flawed becuase God did not rapture Noah when he sent the flood? And Noah was far more righteous than 99.9999% of all bible believing christians today. So why do these people think that God will give them special treatment? like being zapped of the earth. Not saying that people won't be evacuated

No I think that the rapture is a doctrine of man which is a deception and trick of the satan. I think that the satan has placed in the imagination of man that
such a miraculous event would be ignored by unbelievers even if it was attributed to UFO's. I also think that many NWO conspiracy thoeries are also deceptions, such as the bilderburgers, rothchilds, etc. I also think that the Most if not all antichrist candidates are deceptions as well. the only person in the world at the correct time who will identified as the antichrist will only be identified by the last prophet of God. No one will believe it is the antichrist.

If even 1 million people dissapeared it would cause headlines even in the midst of a great war.
here is what i think what will happen. The bible also backs up my premise more than being zapped of the earth.


i think that in the near future that people will gather in the mountains and create self suffient societies that will have no need to import goods from outside. that at the very beginning only a few will come but before the abomination of desolation the camp will be totally self sufficient with hydroponics, greenhouses, and hydroelectric/photovoltaic generators. there will be three areas in the united states where there will be safe houses. adirondacks, appalachian mountains, and the rockies.soon after the abomination the safe palces will be impossible to reach and those who mocked them that gathered will face persecution. At the end the angels will airlift people away from these sites and into the land of israel.
Any thoughts?
Does it contradict the bible?

Scienceguy,

Do you really think god is going to airlift his chosen ones from their place of worship and take them to safety? If so, tell me why you think this and maybe we can help you find where your road has been manipulated.

This is a Good thread The "pre-tribulation" rapture has been preached in church here in the USA since 1906, there was some sort of Religous convention/meeting, and from what I understand this is when this started to be preached. I believe it had more to do with filling the church, giving the people some sort of hope. As opposed to scaring the bejesus out of most people. I don't know the name of such convention or I would have provided a link.

I don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, never have. To me it doesn't make sence. Im not sure about the Rapture bein a doctrine of man, I do believe the "pre-tribulation Rapture" is very much a doctrine of man.

peace

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
Scienceguy,

Do you really think god is going to airlift his chosen ones from their place of worship and take them to safety? If so, tell me why you think this and maybe we can help you find where your road has been manipulated.

Exactly. my point. The place of safety that jesus was talking about is not only petra.
see here


"Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion. For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon. Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth. Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land." Isaiah 16:1-4

"Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Matthew 24:16

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." Revelation 12:6

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." Revelation 12:14.


it is illogical to assume that the only place of refuge will be petra jordan. God is a not a God of disorder put of love and peace. it is logical to assume that petra is one of many places that will be used to flee the persecution.
Does God expect So many to try to fly to Jordan in such a short period of time? from multiple continents? It would be impossible. When the air and biological components of the earth have been so contaminated and these places are no longer livable then god will airlift his elect to safety.

Its interesting when you mention the word "Rapture" in the christian world. The first thing that comes to the mind of most christians is that they are (physically) raptured or taken away physically to safety. Mankind cannot distance himself from his linear thinking of the physical relm. (3d) What one can touch, see, smell, taste, hear.

Personally, I would hate to be raptured(physically) in the present condition I am spiritually and emotionally.

Good news though:
He that began a good work in you is sure to complete it.
and I will cause all things to work together for good those that are in me.
(thats all things) even the things you think are screwed up and not going so well by your standards.
thats a promise that things are right on schedule.

Rapture is of the spirit and soul not of the flesh.

There are Currently many interpretations of revelations and can be equally criticized.

The most glaring problem with any theory that doesn't include the rapture of the church is the total absence of it in the tribulation described in revelations.

[edit on 10/1/2005 by Forgiven]

[edit on 10/1/2005 by Forgiven]

Does the Bible state, "the dead in Christ will rise"??

A Zombie End Time, would be a fitting end to our world, tell me whats more creepy than that.

ok just a thought

peace

[edit on 1-10-2005 by LDragonFire]

Another teaching of man and manipulation of a faith.

If you are asking if the concept is Biblically-backed, the answer is yes.

To sum it up in a nutshell, when the Great Restrainer is removed, there will be no restraint and the evil desires of man and the plan of Satan will have their day on Earth.

Before Christ left, He told the disciples not to worry as Anotehr will come and He will never leave us. If the holy Spirit leaves, He must take us with Him, or Christ is a liar. If Christ is a liar, all hope is lost, anyway and this is a moot point. Anyway, when the Great Restrainer leaves the face of the Earth, He takes us with Him and, there you have it, the Rapure, as it is called.

Matthew 24:36-41 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

personally i think the Roman catholics likes to focus on those "left behind" then the ones that were taken to heaven to, instill fear into it's subjects. I think the focus should be on how sudden it will be instead.

After Jesus exhorts the disciples to "keep watch," (not to look, but more like a night watchman) to stay awake, he illustrates what he means. We stay alert not by artificially and perpetually stirring expectation that he will come at a given time, but by living in such a manner that we would have no cause for shame if he did come at any time, since he may in fact do so.

Does anyone here realize the biblical rapture explains the obvious - death. It is presumptuous that people have come to believe that it is describing an event where believers are all raptured at the same time. Perhaps it is just describing the process of dying for each and every one of us. At this point in time, we are raptured.

Well the rapture is described by 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 where "caught up" in greek is rapturo in Latin. The real question becomes, is this passage talking about a pre-trib "rapture" or the post-trib second coming of Christ?

I don't think it's ignorant to believe in a pre-trib rapture or not to considering the interpretive struggle of Revelation. There is an equal amount of proof for both and an equal amount of criticism.

RAPTURE a doctrine of man?

This is a valid question and one that has been openly contested by many theologians, religious scholars, and varying denominations, since 1827-1850 to current.

Hence, it [the questioning of the Rapture as being man-made or not] is a theological argument/discussion, not a conspiracy within religion itself, IMHO.

Some will contest that the Rapture is scripture-based via presented and selected scriptures, while others will assert that it is not scripture-based via presented and selected counter scriptures. Some will contest that the Rapture is true teachings, while others will assert that the teaching of the Rapture is false teachings. Astonishingly, the very word "rapture" is never mentioned nor found within the original ancient texts that make-up the Holy Bible.

The teaching of the Rapture, within various denominations, is based upon interpretation, as with some other believed varying church doctrines.
The question that should be asked here is to what denomination do those that believe in the Rapture belong, hence, the difference of opinion will be found, for again, the teachings of the Rapture are not taught by all Christian denominations, for various, conflicting, and self-evident reasonings.

Is the doctrine and teaching of the Rapture man-made?
As indicated, it depends upon who you ask, and who is doing the interpreting, for the real answer is that it is man-made and it is not man-made. Interpretation, as with research and the gaining of knowledge, as with salvation, is solely a matter of individuality or individual conviction(s).




seekerof

[edit on 2-10-2005 by Seekerof]

Science Guy -- I don't think anybody's going anywhere until Jesus comes, and Jesus isn't coming until it's over. So that means we're all going to go through this thing together.

I'm wild to know how you came to your ideas of safe places in the USA to go. I recently bought a farm kind just east of the finger lakes in NYS. You think it will be safe?

noahs ark will carry us through the dragons flood. (rev 13) unless you pitch your ship thoroughly water will leak in (gen 6). the heathen will laugh at you (gen 6) but it will be as in the days of noe, with the women giving and taking in marriage with the fallen (matt 24).

you were right to combine the analogies. there is a certain level there. The other example is the more obvious Jesus our rock holding our house (church or self) through the flood/storm, verses those who build their house on sand. (luke 6).

Zep 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; (Gods church , or nation of the remnant)
Zep 2:2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.
Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

some people would combine the two (zeph 2 and rev 3) hour of temptation DOES NOT equal day of the Lord. keeping from temptation is included in the Lords prayer in matthew 6. rev 3 isnt a rapture verse. rev 3 also does not explain rev 2:10. And of course there is always 2thess2. its so clear I dont know how people become confused.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

compare 2thess2:7 with daniel 12.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

stand up is approx the same as he who will let . Michael is the one holding satan in chains (rev 12) at this moment since post wilderness temptation in matt 4. 2thess2 is telling us that Satan has already been working the "mystery of iniquity" and that at the end time tribulation when Satan is let out his one world gov will be established. No one is going anywhere until after that 7year tribulation is over.

I'm wild to know how you came to your ideas of safe places in the USA to go. I recently bought a farm kind just east of the finger lakes in NYS. You think it will be safe?

this was somebody elses Idea. It made so much more sense and was in line with the bible than being millions of people all over the earth being beamed out.


I think that God can zap us out anywhere on the planet but he wants us to help out our fellow man by building these camps. i think this is how we prove ourselves worthy of being delivered from evil. We pool our resources build things like hydroponics, waste disposal systems power generation, shelter and etc.
We will be on this earth i told you this before. but we will be in areas that have divine protection. the place in NYS will be almost on the hudson river. i have been there before. there was a funny feeling before This guy told me what that place will be. here is the story.


I was hiking up the mountain near the site with a buddy(not that guy). we scaled it straight up. in about an hour at the top there was a small house. When we were inside my friend was tearing off the wall like a monkey. I totally screamed at him to stop becuase we'll be back here. and at another site on top of the mountain we found an ax and i told him that we might use this in the future.so don;t throw it away. This was before that other guy told me that there would be a great gathering in the future


Does anybody wonder why I had the feeling that this place would be of importance in the future before anybody had told me anything about such an idea?


the reason i think that this scenario is the correct one becuase it fills all bible prophecy deabtes of pretrib and post trib debates.
we gather at the beginning and are taken away at the end.
For one the it is nonsupernatural. there is no magic that would cause unbelievers to actually believe something supernatural happened. people holding out for being zapped up and scoffers will have something to ridicule.(like Noah)
i also think that the parable of the foolish bride and wise brides pertain to this event.
no one is going to live at the top of the mountain but live around it.



[edit on 2-10-2005 by scienceguy94]

[edit on 2-10-2005 by scienceguy94]

Originally posted by scienceguy94
Does anybody wonder why I had the feeling that this place would be of importance in the future before anybody had told me anything about such an idea?

Sounds like only people who can hike/mountain climb straight up can get to your place. Mine is right on a country road, right out where you can see it. Do you think the Amish will be okay through the Tribulation?

[edited big quote -nygdan]

[edit on 2-10-2005 by Nygdan]

Why would satan make up this idea of a pre-tribulation rapture?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Why would satan make up this idea of a pre-tribulation rapture?

What do you think? How else do you think he could get all these churches to go on about their business for 30 years while the babies were being butchered under their noses in abortion, the pornography filth, the drugs, the Safe Sex taught to the kids in school (so-called), the homosexuality, the utter wickedness that's permeated throughout the culture -- how else would Satan get the Christians to just take a pass on this stuff?

Most of the Christians that are serious Bible believers were led to believe that when things starated to get REALLY bad they'd be whooshed away to Heaven. Some of the biggest promoters of the Rapture are either outright Illuminati or Illuminati shills. Billy Graham himself is Illuminati.

People should have been reading their Bibles where the truth is NOT that hard to find instead of reading Tim LaHaye and these other shysters, who are probably plants by the Illuminati to begin with.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Why would satan make up this idea of a pre-tribulation rapture?

So he could fool people into believing he was Christ come to rapture them away before the actual second comming. Anything that would confuse scripture or understanding to the timeline is beneficial in its own anyway (to satan).

perhaps if project blue beam is legitimate it would explain how this scam could be pulled off. though that is not necessary for him to be able to pull of this scam.