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Originally posted by Seekerof
ArchAngel, again, is not the use of logic a wonderful thing?
So by the answer that you have given, my example of a group of men, a woman, the one who first suggested and then raped the woman first, then raped by all the men in that group of men, the one to only be found guilty would be the one who suggested doing the rape and then raped her first, correct?
Be careful how you answer, because if you answer the question truthfully, your argument(s) fall to the wayside as irrelevent.
as posted by ArchAngel
Blame the one who stood over and promulgated that the raping shall not end, and that is the law.
That would be America.
Originally posted by Seekerof
Have you heard from any of those that were involved with the sanctions, besides the US, stand up like men and own-up and take responsibility for/to those death count numbers cited by seattlelaw, Benevolent Heretic?
Originally posted by Seekerof
as posted by ArchAngel
Blame the one who stood over and promulgated that the raping shall not end, and that is the law.
That would be America.
In the example I gave, and based upon the answer you have given, I am led to conclude that your understanding of the legal system is flawed, your logic is flawed and tainted, and that your assessment of the example I gave in relation to a court of law and its findings and decision is woefully incorrect.
Originally posted by Seekerof
Have you heard from any of those that were involved with the sanctions, besides the US, stand up like men and own-up and take responsibility for/to those death count numbers cited by seattlelaw, Benevolent Heretic?
as posted by ArchAngel
Your analogy is below poor.
The Security Council members that initiated the sanctions while Iraq was in Kuwait do not share the blame for Americas later refusal to end them.
The US and UK governments always made it clear that they would block any lifting or serious reforming of sanctions as long as Hussein remained in power. After more than twelve years of sanctions had passed, the US and the UK made war on Iraq again in March, 2003, sweeping away Hussein's government.
Your conclusions are flawed by your original rationalization which stem from obvious ignorance of the way the sanctions work, or maybe an attempt at deception?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
No, I have not. But that is not my concern. What concerns me is that MY country has not taken responsibility for their abominable actions, separate from what anyone else did or didn't do.
The analogy was dead on.
Originally posted by Seekerof
Hence my country not taking responsibility to date.
Perhaps the day that Saddam takes some sort of responsibility......?
Originally posted by ArchAngel
Was it the intention of all that signed UN resolution 661 that the trade sanctions remain in effect as long as Saddam was in power?
Was resolution 661 Rape at the time it was signed, or justified punishment?
Were the sanctions justified 10 years later?
Was it rape then?
China, Russia, and France were not against ending the sanctions.
America, and UK Alone were against it making them the rapists.
the POWER here lies in the veto, and America exercised it without actually having to use it.
quote:
Was it rape then?
Debatable.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Riiiight. Another reason to hang my head in shame. Our accountability depends on Saddam Hussein's accountability. :shk:
Just above, you included the UK in your guilt equation. Now your back to simply and only the US.
But according to your logic, lets not blame the side at fault or the one being punished, but lets blame the ones who did the punishing?
Originally posted by Seekerof
Saddam bears responsibility. He was the one in power. The logic here is the very same you and others use when you blame Bush for x this and x that. Saddam had it within his power to end the sanctions by simply following UN decrees and demands, correct?
But of course, lets keep with the blaming of the punishersprogram and not the one who screwed up and was punished....
quote: In an interview transcript made public earlier this month, the former head of prison operations in Iraq described meeting an imprisoned boy who said he was 11 years old but looked more like an 8-year-old. Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski said the boy was crying for his mother, but did not say what happened to him.
www.truthout.org...
www.sundayherald.com...
“The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,” he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. “Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw [the soldier’s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.” Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped “the little kid”.
A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses report that the detainees – some as young as 10 – are also being subjected to rape and torture
......
An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children’s wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.
“I saw a camp for children there,” he said. “Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp.” Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. “She was beaten,” said al-Baz. “I heard her call out, ‘They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.’”
He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily – this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child’s father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
Simply, and Only America used veto influence to keep the sanctions in place even when the vast majority of the world were against them.
-[snip]-
Only America can be blamed for many of the years of Sanctions, and those were the worst years for the Iraqis.
Associated Press, Baghdad, June 15, 1998
Iraq is very close to becoming free of U.N. economic sanctions, the chief weapons inspector said today. "The light at the end of the tunnel today is more visible than anytime," the U.N. envoy, Richard Butler, told reporters at the conclusion of three days of talks with Iraqi officials on disarming Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. The U.N. Security Council will allow the lifting of the sanctions imposed after Iraq's 1991 invasion of Kuwait only after Butler's United Nations Special Commission certifies that Iraq has no more illegal weapons. Butler said that UNSCOM can finish its job in two months as long as Iraq fully cooperates with its arms inspectors……
(Article)
New York Times, August 13, 1998
Iraq is not only freezing all current U.N. weapons inspections but is also threatening the long-term monitoring that is crucial to preventing the country from producing weapons of mass destruction in the future, U.N. officials said Wednesday.
Iraq, which announced last week that it would no longer cooperate with arms inspectors but would let video and other technical surveillance continue, now says U.N. inspectors will not be allowed to act on any violations that they discover. As a result, the two chief inspectors said Wednesday in a letter to the Security Council, they can no longer feel confident that Iraq is not restarting prohibited weapons programs……
(Article)
International Herald Tribune, August 16, 1998
Washington - The Clinton administration has intervened secretly for months, most recently August 7, to dissuade United Nations weapons teams from mounting surprise inspections in Iraq because it wished to avoid a new crisis with the Baghdad government, according to knowledgeable American and diplomatic accounts.
(Article)
Originally posted by ArchAngel
Years later it turned to rape, and America Alone holds the blame.
IPS, November 8, 1998
United Nations - The U.N. Security Council Thursday condemned Iraq for provoking a new standoff with U.N. weapons inspectors, but stopped well short of calling for any military response to the latest crisis. Even so, the Security Council's unanimous demand that Iraq ''rescind immediately and unconditionally'' its decision to cease cooperation with the U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) has helped to bolster U.S. efforts to build pressure on Baghdad.
U.S. diplomats were happy that nations normally supportive of the need to ease the pressure of eight-year-old sanctions on Iraq - notably France, Russia and China - backed the resolution and levelled their own criticisms at Baghdad. French Ambassador Alain Dejammet said that with the vote, ''the Council would demonstrate its unity in the face of an Iraqi decision which right away was described as irrational and unacceptable.''
(Article)(emphasis added)
Originally posted by WestPoint23
So, who are the ones that capture and behead civilians?
As far as I can see they have killed more Iraqi civilians and citizens then American soldiers. And don't tell me one group only attacks certain types of targets, they go after everything as long as it accomplishes their agenda.