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Abu Ghraib Videos Show Children Being Raped

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posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
ArchAngel, again, is not the use of logic a wonderful thing?
So by the answer that you have given, my example of a group of men, a woman, the one who first suggested and then raped the woman first, then raped by all the men in that group of men, the one to only be found guilty would be the one who suggested doing the rape and then raped her first, correct?

Be careful how you answer, because if you answer the question truthfully, your argument(s) fall to the wayside as irrelevent.


Blame the one who stood over and promulgated that the raping shall not end, and that is the law.

That would be America.




posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 09:50 PM
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as posted by ArchAngel
Blame the one who stood over and promulgated that the raping shall not end, and that is the law.

That would be America.

In the example I gave, and based upon the answer you have given, I am led to conclude that your understanding of the legal system is flawed, your logic is flawed and tainted, and that your assessment of the example I gave in relation to a court of law and its findings and decision is woefully incorrect.





seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Have you heard from any of those that were involved with the sanctions, besides the US, stand up like men and own-up and take responsibility for/to those death count numbers cited by seattlelaw, Benevolent Heretic?


What is it to be "involved with the sanctions"?

www.un.org...
UN Security Council Resolution 661

At the time Iraq was occupying Kuwait in violation of Article 2 so it did not seem like such a bad thing.

That was not rape, rather it was a spanking for getting caught with your hand in something.

Years later it turned to rape, and America Alone holds the blame.

The sanctions never ended, but we did allow a renegotiation with the Oil-For-Food Program which was simply controled rape.



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by ArchAngel
Blame the one who stood over and promulgated that the raping shall not end, and that is the law.

That would be America.

In the example I gave, and based upon the answer you have given, I am led to conclude that your understanding of the legal system is flawed, your logic is flawed and tainted, and that your assessment of the example I gave in relation to a court of law and its findings and decision is woefully incorrect.


Your analogy is below poor.

The Security Council members that initiated the sanctions while Iraq was in Kuwait do not share the blame for Americas later refusal to end them.

Your conclusions are flawed by your original rationalization which stem from obvious ignorance of the way the sanctions work, or maybe an attempt at deception?



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Have you heard from any of those that were involved with the sanctions, besides the US, stand up like men and own-up and take responsibility for/to those death count numbers cited by seattlelaw, Benevolent Heretic?


No, I have not. But that is not my concern. What concerns me is that MY country has not taken responsibility for their abominable actions, separate from what anyone else did or didn't do. I'm not implying that everyone else is innocent. That's their concern. They should stand up, too. but my accountability is not dependent on others holding themselves accountable. I have integrity. I am honorable and when I've done something wrong, I will be responsible and not point fingers to make my mistakes seem somehow less or not so bad.



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:17 PM
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as posted by ArchAngel
Your analogy is below poor.

The analogy was dead on.
It was poor to you because you failed to comprehend what it implied in relation to those who authorized and sanctioned the Iraqi sanctions.



The Security Council members that initiated the sanctions while Iraq was in Kuwait do not share the blame for Americas later refusal to end them.

Oh, but those members do share the blame for putting in place the sanctions, as does Saddam.
As for your simply and only mentioning and blame of just the US, you are woefully incorrect, as I stipulated before.
Let me quote this:


The US and UK governments always made it clear that they would block any lifting or serious reforming of sanctions as long as Hussein remained in power. After more than twelve years of sanctions had passed, the US and the UK made war on Iraq again in March, 2003, sweeping away Hussein's government.

Sanctions Against Iraq
Simply and only just the US, eh, ArchAngel, in relation to sanctions being lifted? More can be found....



Your conclusions are flawed by your original rationalization which stem from obvious ignorance of the way the sanctions work, or maybe an attempt at deception?

My understanding of how the sanctions worked and as to who all was involved in placing the sanctions and those who sought to lift the sanctions and those that did not want to lift the sanctions is not a matter of ignorance or deception, but definately contrary to your understanding and comprehension of such.





seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
No, I have not. But that is not my concern. What concerns me is that MY country has not taken responsibility for their abominable actions, separate from what anyone else did or didn't do.


My country has no need to be accountable for voting for the placing of sanctions nor for the actions of Saddam in getting those sanctions imposed nor for the "abominable actions", nor for not wanting to lift those sanctions.

Hence my country not taking responsibility to date.
Perhaps the day that Saddam takes some sort of responsibility......?








seekerof

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:26 PM
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The analogy was dead on.


Was it the intention of all that signed UN resolution 661 that the trade sanctions remain in effect as long as Saddam was in power?

Was resolution 661 Rape at the time it was signed, or justified punishment?

Were the sanctions justified 10 years later?

Was it rape then?

China, Russia, and France were not against ending the sanctions.

America, and UK Alone were against it making them the rapists.

the POWER here lies in the veto, and America exercised it without actually having to use it.



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:34 PM
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Here's how I really feel about this:

Anyone who understands electronics and technology knows one thing: When more technology gets into the hands of the average public, you are going to see some *non-Barney approved stuff. This means that as video capture devices have spread, so has the diversity and depth of horribleness of footage. Have you heard about the guy who vid-phoned his girlfriend as he jumped to his death? I have the link somewhere. Point is: This kind of military rape-trauma thing has been going on for as long as soldiers have existed, only now are we seeing it. Due to technology.

Now, it has reached the point where it is not enough to embed your news crew with the platoon, because the soldiers themselves are becoming the true eyes of the army... Due to technology!

Oh ha ha ha, it is so funny and sad at the same time. My country did not learn from the Vietnam war. Technology makes you weak at the same time that it makes you strong. Yes I think the footage of this Iraq war will become some of the most gruesome which the world has ever seen. It will also, unlike Vietnam, be seen from thousands of tiny little eyes, each recording digitally and immediately. Soldiers with MPEG capture capabilities will show humanity a whole new level of war crimes.

*Excessive profanity is not "Super-de-duper"*

[edit on 30-9-2005 by dbates]


...dbates, you made my post even better. I'm putting a dollar in the swear jar, just for that.

[edit on 30-9-2005 by smallpeeps]



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Hence my country not taking responsibility to date.
Perhaps the day that Saddam takes some sort of responsibility......?


Riiiight. Another reason to hang my head in shame. Our accountability depends on Saddam Hussein's accountability. :shk:



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
Was it the intention of all that signed UN resolution 661 that the trade sanctions remain in effect as long as Saddam was in power?

No.



Was resolution 661 Rape at the time it was signed, or justified punishment?

Justified by those members that signed onto it.
It was later equivalent to 'rape' when some wnated the sanctions reformed or lifted.



Were the sanctions justified 10 years later?

Depends on which member nations you spkoe to, publically and privately.
To some, yes, to some, no.



Was it rape then?

Debatable.



China, Russia, and France were not against ending the sanctions.

Of course they were not.
Ironically, they were implicated in the Food-for-Oil Program.
Interesting, no?



America, and UK Alone were against it making them the rapists.

Debatable, but according to you and seattlelaw, among a few others, up to this very moment, it was simply the US who was the 'rapist'.



the POWER here lies in the veto, and America exercised it without actually having to use it.

Just above, you included the UK in your guilt equation. Now your back to simply and only the US. :shk:







seekerof



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:42 PM
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quote:
Was it rape then?

Debatable.


If it was not rape 10 years later how does your analogy apply?



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Riiiight. Another reason to hang my head in shame. Our accountability depends on Saddam Hussein's accountability. :shk:


In the applied case, the sanctions would not have been placed if not for the actions of Saddam, correct?
But according to your logic, lets not blame the side at fault or the one being punished, but lets blame the ones who did the punishing?

When your kids do something wrong and you have to punish them or spank them, do you blame yourself for their mistakes? Accountability and accepting responsibility fits into this how exactly?






seekerof



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:45 PM
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Just above, you included the UK in your guilt equation. Now your back to simply and only the US.


Lets expand it a bit further.

Israel.

They gave full moral support for the Sanctions.

America, Israel, and UK Raped Iraq.



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:49 PM
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But according to your logic, lets not blame the side at fault or the one being punished, but lets blame the ones who did the punishing?


At what point does punishment become abuse?

Somewhere around where the UK-America-Israel coalition alone were enabling the sanctions to continue.



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 10:56 PM
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Saddam bears responsibility. He was the one in power. The logic here is the very same you and others use when you blame Bush for x this and x that. Saddam had it within his power to end the sanctions by simply following UN decrees and demands, correct?

But of course, lets keep with the blaming of the punishersprogram and not the one who screwed up and was punished....




seekerof



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Saddam bears responsibility. He was the one in power. The logic here is the very same you and others use when you blame Bush for x this and x that. Saddam had it within his power to end the sanctions by simply following UN decrees and demands, correct?

But of course, lets keep with the blaming of the punishersprogram and not the one who screwed up and was punished....


No, he did not.

As you showed above the America-Israel-UK Coalition had no intention of ending the sanctions so long as Saddam was in power.

The POWER was in their hands, not Saddams.

Nothing Saddam did short of fleeing his homeland was going to erase what the other Security Council members were tricked into so many years ago.



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 11:18 PM
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quote: In an interview transcript made public earlier this month, the former head of prison operations in Iraq described meeting an imprisoned boy who said he was 11 years old but looked more like an 8-year-old. Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski said the boy was crying for his mother, but did not say what happened to him.

www.truthout.org...




www.sundayherald.com...

“The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,” he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. “Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw [the soldier’s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.” Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped “the little kid”.


A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses report that the detainees – some as young as 10 – are also being subjected to rape and torture

......

An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children’s wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.

“I saw a camp for children there,” he said. “Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp.” Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. “She was beaten,” said al-Baz. “I heard her call out, ‘They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.’”

He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily – this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child’s father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.




Thankyou for our freedom


cjf

posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
Simply, and Only America used veto influence to keep the sanctions in place even when the vast majority of the world were against them.
-[snip]-
Only America can be blamed for many of the years of Sanctions, and those were the worst years for the Iraqis.


That is an oversimplification in perspective concerning events around the time(s).

Beginning, let’s say, with UN resolution 661; exactly why were the sanctions imposed and remained? One point, It was not as simple as because ‘they were occupying Kuwait at the time”

Was there not a built-in trigger mechanism involved in ceasing the continued sanctioning of Iraq? Yes

Review a few of just one year’s events.

(Without being able to generally link to archived $$ sites, the sourced site for the following contains a great catalog of articles)



Associated Press, Baghdad, June 15, 1998

Iraq is very close to becoming free of U.N. economic sanctions, the chief weapons inspector said today. "The light at the end of the tunnel today is more visible than anytime," the U.N. envoy, Richard Butler, told reporters at the conclusion of three days of talks with Iraqi officials on disarming Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. The U.N. Security Council will allow the lifting of the sanctions imposed after Iraq's 1991 invasion of Kuwait only after Butler's United Nations Special Commission certifies that Iraq has no more illegal weapons. Butler said that UNSCOM can finish its job in two months as long as Iraq fully cooperates with its arms inspectors……
(Article)


What happened just shy of two months later?…the beginning of the end.



New York Times, August 13, 1998

Iraq is not only freezing all current U.N. weapons inspections but is also threatening the long-term monitoring that is crucial to preventing the country from producing weapons of mass destruction in the future, U.N. officials said Wednesday.
Iraq, which announced last week that it would no longer cooperate with arms inspectors but would let video and other technical surveillance continue, now says U.N. inspectors will not be allowed to act on any violations that they discover. As a result, the two chief inspectors said Wednesday in a letter to the Security Council, they can no longer feel confident that Iraq is not restarting prohibited weapons programs……
(Article)


Later…an odd possibility.



International Herald Tribune, August 16, 1998

Washington - The Clinton administration has intervened secretly for months, most recently August 7, to dissuade United Nations weapons teams from mounting surprise inspections in Iraq because it wished to avoid a new crisis with the Baghdad government, according to knowledgeable American and diplomatic accounts.
(Article)




Originally posted by ArchAngel
Years later it turned to rape, and America Alone holds the blame.


But wait, there’s more



IPS, November 8, 1998

United Nations - The U.N. Security Council Thursday condemned Iraq for provoking a new standoff with U.N. weapons inspectors, but stopped well short of calling for any military response to the latest crisis. Even so, the Security Council's unanimous demand that Iraq ''rescind immediately and unconditionally'' its decision to cease cooperation with the U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) has helped to bolster U.S. efforts to build pressure on Baghdad.
U.S. diplomats were happy that nations normally supportive of the need to ease the pressure of eight-year-old sanctions on Iraq - notably France, Russia and China - backed the resolution and levelled their own criticisms at Baghdad. French Ambassador Alain Dejammet said that with the vote, ''the Council would demonstrate its unity in the face of an Iraqi decision which right away was described as irrational and unacceptable.''
(Article)(emphasis added)


Chronically and incessantly focusing and laying blame upon the United States (We all 'know' the US's role as it has beaten friggin' to death), ignores years and years of history, side steps UN corruption, makes it far too simple for culpable nations to diffract the assignation of blame and fails to recognize Iraqi's government's hand in the crisis on and on and on and on.....


.



posted on Sep, 30 2005 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
So, who are the ones that capture and behead civilians?

As far as I can see they have killed more Iraqi civilians and citizens then American soldiers. And don't tell me one group only attacks certain types of targets, they go after everything as long as it accomplishes their agenda.


Westpoint this is not a we/them type of conflict. What we have now is a civil war with the US troops caught in the middle. In Iraq there is no central government, but a diverse collection of tribes, sects, religions, political parties, criminal elements and lone crazy killers. So they wear no uniforms and basiclly all look alike wheather frendlies or enemy. This is far from a conventional type of conflict with subtle alliances and the US forces have no viable intellegence because they have no way of telling who they can trust. So what should we do in your opinion? Kill em all and let God sort em out? I think we should not sacrifice anymore US troops in a conflict we don't even understand. Just let the Iraqis figure it out for them selves. Unless it is about oil, then it's a different story then hmmm...

And another thing: will we regret training Iraqis to be troops and peace keepers the same way we now regret supporting the Taliban when they were fighting the USSR?

There is no excuse for torture, no way, no how. If we claim the moral high ground , which we do, we must show that Americans are a noble and honerable people unlike the savages we sometimes come in contact with. The question is; do we have any claim on the moral high ground?




[edit on 30-9-2005 by whaaa]

[edit on 1-10-2005 by whaaa]



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