Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by BadMojo
But playing dress-up with enemy combatants for information on "decapitators" and suicide bombers is well worth the payoff.

Even if the MAJORITY of the Prisoners were Guildty Until Proven Innocent and most of the were at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong religious belif and nationality?

Sorry Souljah
Forgive me here, but i cannot understand what you mean by the above quote.

Most were guilty untill proven innocent? Why exactly were they there in the first place? Do you really think it has to do with religion or nationality?
Come on Souljah, i know you better than this

Souljah, if they are innocent...not proper conduct. But who decides their innocence? Is it their word against a soldier's? If I were captured, I would scream innocent also. But take into consideration also, that not every prisoner has been treated in this manner. I admit that I have not researched all of the prisoners photographed, but maybe they were known combatants. If not, punishment is in order.

How about they were guilty until proven innocent?
they were there for a reason, no matter how trivial.

If they were terrorists, then they deserve what is coming to them. If not, they deserve some kind of trial to prove them Innocent. It happens all the time in the Western World. Trials i mean.

After 9-11 there have been Several Cases of Muslim Americans "Dissapearing" and being sent to prisons, like Guantanamo.

There have been several cases from Europe, and other Places, where CIA Kidnapped Foreign Citizens, without authorization of the Country that they live in, and flew them with their AIR-CIA aircraft to the secret locations for their "Interrogation".

Why were there 500-1000 Prisoners Released from Abu Gharib Lately? Because they was no more room?

Since the fall of the Ba'athist regime the prison has been used as a detention facility by the U.S.-led coalition occupying Iraq, holding more than 5,000 people, mostly Alleged rebels and criminals.

Its pretty obvious that Bush administration is conducting a War on Religion not a War on Terror - for Today every Muslim in the World is a possible Target.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

This ACLU informant ( ) wasn't there, can't show us the evidence, doesn't know anyone first-hand that was there. It's nothing more than gossip.

Other than your word, what proof is there for what you are saying?

This goes both ways, you know...

No it doesn't. I'm not the one accusing people of rape, toture, and killing. I'm just saying that the accuser needs more evidence than "I heard that someone said that...."

All I can say is the victors shall write the history. The victors shall keep quiet about the horrible stuff they did aside from those that had already leaked into the limelight(e.g Pfc England's case). The victors tell everything the way they see it. So I ask you here who's the victor in this "war on terror" or whatever the hell you want to call it?

Look at WW2. Read the texts. Did the victors write anything to incriminate themselves as murderers too as what they claimed the losers to be?

NOPE.

This is a simple example of what war do to you. Both sides are actually the losers. There is nothing to gain in war except for bragging rights and domination over the weak. No, don't come to me with those liberation BS. You don't kill/rape/torture to liberate people.

Originally posted by UiNeill


What its like in America?

poverty

racism

the chosen few

let them drown....sure theyre black

demcoracy?.......theres no such thing

American is beautiful; I have seen a great deal of it.

I live in a great area near Boston, massively racially diverse too. The trees are green, the grass is perfect and everything is clean. Crime is low in my area and people let their kids play unattended outside for hours and hours.

I have plenty of clean water to drink, every possible food and necessity is nearby and available. I have a good job even though I never finished college, enough so my wife doesn’t have to work and can stay home with my son.

Its funny, she has a dual major from UMass and stays home to be supported by somebody with just a high school degree, only in America huh? You know what’s that called? Limitless OPPORTUNITY. My boss is an AVP for a Fortune 300 company, he doesn’t have a degree either. And no other country in the world has the opportunities the USA has. NONE. Even for African Americans.

My immediate neighbors are from Pakistan. Their oldest boy is about to go on a full ride scholarship to college. They hardly speak English too, not bad huh? My wife and In-laws are from Hong Kong. The first USA born generation of wife’s family all has degrees from MIT, Brown, and other top level schools, mostly on scholarships from US institutions, companies, and the government.



I’m sorry; I must have slipped off on a tangent and forgot the topic, what were you saying about American racism, the chosen few, and poverty again? I’m sorry, where in the USA do you live that you can report this? OH…You don’t live in America…But you must know the truth, youre on the internet....

Originally posted by skippytjc
Its funny, she has a dual major from UMass and stays home to be supported by somebody with just a high school degree, only in America huh? You know what’s that called? Limitless OPPORTUNITY. My boss is an AVP for a Fortune 300 company, he doesn’t have a degree either. And no other country in the world has the opportunities the USA has. NONE. Even for African Americans.

Have you even been outside of America? That has to be the biggest load of crap I have read all day. And the internet is full of crap. Please, believe all the BS you want, but give the rest of us a bit more credit. Only in America can a wife stay home and look after kids? I dunno if that water is oh so clean after all.

all we know is that there were rapes and murders on Iraqi and foreign fighters but we have not one scant of evidence of rape and murder of women and children. and the question is that why didnt they bring this up long time ago, if he says videos, he has to show it instead of just giving a lecture about it.

Show me proof that any of this happened. Show me proof that it was American soldiers doing it, and I'll start building an electric chair right now!
Untill it can be proven stop slamming the US military.

I read the transcripts and articles and their credability leaves something to be desired. There was so much spin on them that I hurt my neck trying to read them. I am not saying that it didn't happen and that it couldn't happen. I have served in the US Military and have spent alot of time as a civilain working with the US Military and I can tell you one thing. There is no way that something like this could be kept secret. There is enough politics, sniping and mudslinging that goes on behind the scenes that I am sure if these pictures or videos existed and were in the posession of the Military someone would have leaked them by now.

One thing that I did get from these articles is that the supposed rapists were Iraquis working at the prision. That I'll buy. How many members of the insurgency have infiltrated the new Iraqui military? I'll bet more than a few. Video taping an Iraqui infiltrator beating or raping prisoners in US custody, then leaking the video to the media. They don't make disinformation campaigns any better than this.

I'll state it again. Show me proof and I'll be right there with you at the lynching. Untill then buzz off!

We should demand that all the videos be released. The situation will be settled once and for all. The American people, and the world, for that matter deserves to know the truth. There is no excuse for torture, regardless of guilt or innocence. Punishment after a fair trial, yes, torture, no. If we do these things in the name of freedom, then what are we after all?

Originally posted by CindyfromFlorida
We should demand that all the videos be released. The situation will be settled once and for all. The American people, and the world, for that matter deserves to know the truth. There is no excuse for torture, regardless of guilt or innocence. Punishment after a fair trial, yes, torture, no. If we do these things in the name of freedom, then what are we after all?

Excellant idea. This I could go along with. I just have one question. Define torture? I have seen nothing in the pictures that have been released that I would define as torture. Demeaning, humiliating Yes but torture No. I have no problem using humiliation, discomfort and sleep deprivation to obtain necessary information.

The only problem that I could see with releasing all of the pictures and video is that there will still be a few people who will say that everything hasn't been released.

I am with you skippy,
This is a case of where someone with a hair up where the sun don't shine, was sitting in his room and came up with the idea. as has been repeatedly stated on this thread as well as on many other forums, this guy has never been to Abu Ghraib, he has no sources with which to substanciate his rants.
My last post was in response to a number of staments made by a few here stating that the goverment should release the pictures and video (look at the post right above mine). Was just trying to pass on the info that the goverment has been ordered to release the photos. Sorry if there was any confusion

The guilt or innocence of these people is irrelevant at this point. Children being raped in a US facility is unacceptable.

There was an older thread about this, if I recall correctly. All that we have is a claim that these things happened, and that there are pictures to prove it. The pentagon is not releasing any pictures from abu garab, citing that they'd represent a danger to the soldiers in the field. The senate (or congress as a whole??) saw some of the unreleased pictures, and people remarked that they depicted scene that were far, far, far more depraved than anything shown in the 'lyddie england' photos or any photos released thus far.


But, agian, what is Hersch's source? Its preposterous to accept his statements or the statements of his informants as true, citing the inability of the other side to prove that it didn't happen. Please show that these things are true before blindly stating that they are.

Given all this, its imperative upon the pentagon to simply release all these photos and have full disclosure. Its hardly relevant that it will inflame muslims across the world, there is a far higher goal here of justice, and also preventing these sorts of things from happening again.

I mean, no where has anyone claimed that it was just lyndie england and her cohorts involved in these things, meaning there are other people, probably still in charge over there and still working and still doing these things. Also, the horrendous scope of these clear wrongful acts and crimes really puts the pressure on to punish the nitwits and incompetents who were in charge over there and enabled, permited, or in any other way made it possible for these things to happen, and the slackjawed moronic goons who are covering it up, to be removed from the military and, why not, even executed for providing fodder to the enemy that enables them to kill more american and coalition troops!

I'd like to make a compairison here

Pvt. Lyndie England = Lt. Col. Oliver North.

Anybody get it?

Yes it is relevant to this post.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The guilt or innocence of these people is irrelevant at this point. Children being raped in a US facility is unacceptable.

Who dissagree's with that? The Issue is were kids really raped? Id like to see that proved or dissproved before I send these guys up the river.


I, being of the average age, background, and upbringing of most of the on the scene officers and soldiers there find it very hard to believe they are capapble of it. So I tend NOT to believe these things until its proven or dissproven.

After all, the enemy is trained to lie, and with all the Anti US sentiment some people will believe regardless of what the truth turns out to be.

Originally posted by JIMC5499

Originally posted by CindyfromFlorida
We should demand that all the videos be released. The situation will be settled once and for all. The American people, and the world, for that matter deserves to know the truth. There is no excuse for torture, regardless of guilt or innocence. Punishment after a fair trial, yes, torture, no. If we do these things in the name of freedom, then what are we after all?

Excellant idea. This I could go along with. I just have one question. Define torture? I have seen nothing in the pictures that have been released that I would define as torture. Demeaning, humiliating Yes but torture No. I have no problem using humiliation, discomfort and sleep deprivation to obtain necessary information.

The only problem that I could see with releasing all of the pictures and video is that there will still be a few people who will say that everything hasn't been released.

We are over there to bring these people freedom and democracy, right? I have a problem with humiliating, demeaning, and sleep deprivation of people who have been detained, not charged, and not given a hearing. Does anyone else see a problem with that? In my opinion, those are all forms of torture, and hopefully would not be condoned in our country. Why should it be condoned elsewhere? It remains to be seen what was actually done to these people, but we need to find out for our own sake. I don't want these things to be done in my name. Surely our country is better than that.