they should be released. why are we being dealt with kiddy gloves?

censoring information, as graphic as it may be, isn't the way to go.

Good for the Judge! I've been waiting for this judgment and I'm glad the decision was for revealing the truth.

they "do not need pretexts for their barbarism."

Exactly.

I agree, but am affraid of what they will reveal.

I am also concerned about the likely international reaction. This could get ugly.

WELL ya know I am about as liberal as they come...card carrying member of the ACLU and proud of it thank you very much...but ya know, strange as it may seem, the Bush administration is right on this one and still wrong. If they are as bad or worse (I assume they are since there has been such a fight to keep them secret) they will be bad if not terrible for America's image abroad...that is where the administration is right...but ya know image is nothing if we don't walk the walk. Keeping them secret would be far worse...we should have the confidence to say here you go this is what we encouraged and did. We screwed up big time BUT we are big enough to admit it, and hopefully man enough to go after the ones who are ultimately responsible for not only letting it happen but encouraging it instead of some rinky dink corperal. Of course I am day dreaming again...I really don't expect moral courage out of this administration.

I still firmly place this debacle at Rumsfields feet. If these pictures cause him to resign than so be it. I for one will not lose any sleep. If your troops went off the reservation they should be punished for it. However, the chain of command needs to be scrutinized as well starting with what old Rummy knew or claims to have not known.

I share FredT's sentiments exactly.

With regards to releasing the photos and video footage of this abuse, no! Im a firm believer in that there are simply things that the general public should not see and that includes scenes of murder, carnage and death.

Its enough that these photos are available to the police and prosecution. We do not need to see the gory details, knowing that they exist is enough for freedom of information. You dont need to physically see photos of rape, torture and murder to know it occured.

I have a feeling this is macabre voyeurism rather than seeking of the truth.

Before the Iraq war started, I would have agreed that these photos (assuming, as is likely, they contain the horrors which Hersch and others have spoken of) should not have been released. I would have said that people know what the horrors of war tend to entail.

However, since the Abu Ghraib scandal broke, I've heard a lot of people say things like, "what's the big deal anyway? all they did was 'cute' things like making prisoners wear panties on their heads and make naked pyramids, it's not like it was that bad." After hearing on many an occasion, I am now convinced that the true damage to our country lies not in the images being released to a world already unhappy with the US, but in creating a generation of Americans who will never truly understand what war can cause people to do.

If men and women are going to volunteer for war, they have a right and a need to understand what it means, to the fullest extent possible. If Americans, even a minority of us, will take the easy route of denial, they will perpetuate the myth that in war, your life is all you can sacrifice. Honor can be sacrificed too for war, and I am convinced that there are too many people sticking their head in the sand who need reminding of this.

Some may call this voyeurism, but I believe shock value is important in its own right. War is a shocking affair. The stark photographs from the Vietnam war (the little naked girl covered in napalm running in tears, the VC suspect being shot at point blank range, the bodies in ditches at My Lai, etc) are now a certain, damning, and important part of our history. We would be denying an equally important (if sad) part of our history by hiding these photos from the public, voyeurs be damned. It's wrong to give those who would tell the nations' children and citizens that war is a clean, honorable business the benefit of concealing the evidence to the contrary. If people feel uncomfortable with these images, then so be it, their discomfort may just be a learning experience.

-koji K.

[edit on 30-9-2005 by koji_K]

I think they should be released.
The world needs to know what the Americans are doing to the Iraqi's.

America is so quick to release details about saddams torture chambers, and rape rooms in order to show saddam as being a bad guy, yet the world cant release the evidence about hte US troops doing terrible things to Iraqi's.

It makes me sick that the US has the authority to hide the evidence AGAINST itself..

That makes me MROE Sick, than prolly whats in the images/videos./

How can they even make a legal case for "It would damage America's Image"? What country are we living in? Communist China? It's messed up that our country has become so pro-censorship with our current administration. If you don't want images like this coming out you know what you should do? MAKE SURE THAT YOUR TROOPS AREN'T RAPING AND TORTURING THEIR PRISONERS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Originally posted by subz
With regards to releasing the photos and video footage of this abuse, no! Im a firm believer in that there are simply things that the general public should not see and that includes scenes of murder, carnage and death.

So I take it you never watch TV? Or the news? Or any movies put out by Hollywood other than Disney or Pixar movies?

We live in a messed up world, if you want to change things then forgetting about it and pushing the images out of your head isn't gonna fix anything.

Its enough that these photos are available to the police and prosecution. We do not need to see the gory details, knowing that they exist is enough for freedom of information. You dont need to physically see photos of rape, torture and murder to know it occured.

Of course you dont need to see the photos to know that it happened. But do you actually acknowledge it as a real occurence until you've seen it with your own eyes? Maybe, but I guarantee that it wont be as real to you, or have as much impact if you don't see it first hand. Try and imagine what the WTC attack would have been like in your mind if you never saw any of the footage of the planes hitting or of the buildings being demolished.

I guess it's alright to show this type of media when it's making us look good, but God forbid our image as "the good guys" being tarnished.

There are still some people, I see them on this board all the time (I could name names!), that believe panties on the head was the worst that happened. Of course, there is documentation of physical abuse, and allegations of much severe abuse, but some just simply refuse to believe it.

Maybe these photos will finally be evidence they need, since the written word obviously doesn't hold any power, and people need visual cues to feel anything these days. Once we can finally recognize a problem with our government and military, then we'll be able to fix it.

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
So I take it you never watch TV? Or the news? Or any movies put out by Hollywood other than Disney or Pixar movies?

I watch the news but in Australia/England they do not show gory images on the news. If they feel they have to show pictures of such a nature they warn people before hand and tell them to look away if they dont want to see it. Why? Because I believe that you lose something of your character when you view such scenes. Call me old fashioned but I really do believe that and as such I have never seen the Nick Berg video and nor will I. Ive never visited the likes of ------------------------- and nor will I.

I dont understand why people feel its necessary to release to the public the imagery of these evil acts. Wouldnt the rape of Iraqi boys be classed as child pornography any way? Why do people think its 'okay' or 'warranted' to release this kind of porn? Wouldnt the video of murder be the same as a snuff movie? How can you allow this to be released yet supress the others? Dont you see where I am coming from? Genie, bottle etc?

Where do we draw the line? Is it in the publics interest to view all scenes of crimes just so the gravity of it all sinks in? Im sure people caught with child porn could use that as an excuse. "I needed to view the crime to grasp the magnitude of it all". Is that any different to this scenario?

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
We live in a messed up world, if you want to change things then forgetting about it and pushing the images out of your head isn't gonna fix anything.

That we do. But dont confuse my weak consititution for such imagery as forgetting about it, that is far from the truth. Ive heard of what took place in Abu Ghraib and that knowledge is enough to outrage me, I dont need to make myself physically sick for it to 'sink in'. There are things you can view that would disturb any 'normal' person and thats a risk I do not wish to take. Ask any war veteran and they will tell you how you change inside at seeing such horrors.

[edit on 30/9/05 by subz]

Originally posted by curme
There are still some people, I see them on this board all the time (I could name names!), that believe panties on the head was the worst that happened. Of course, there is documentation of physical abuse, and allegations of much severe abuse, but some just simply refuse to believe it.

This is the only reason I think they should be released. I certainly don't want to see them and will do everything I can to prevent my eyes from seeing them. I already believe it.
-But there are those who won't believe it until they see it.
-And there are a couple who will charge the pictures are photoshopped! Because they refuse to acknowledge the truth, even when it's in front of their eyes.
-And then there are those who will say that they deserved it. That it was one of the 'perks' at the Abu Graib 'resort'.

subz - I would be willing to say the pictures don't need to be released to the general public IF a committee, including Rummy, Bush et al would examine them, then write a statement and hold a press conference stating exactly what was in the pictures and then take some kind of responsibility and action at high levels for the atrocities.

But we KNOW that's never going to happen.